Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Charlot123]

Good point about most people not knowing diddly squat about this case. We here are the minority.

Honestly, if I had video and voice like that of someone...ANYONE THAT I ACTUALLY KNOW... I would know it was them instantly.

So... here is my supposition from that conclusion: 1) The publicity of BG his photo/video and voice somehow DID NOT REACH the 2 or 3 people who actually know him or...… 2) It reached them and they are reluctant to come forward.

How do you get video and audio of the killer and someone doesn't come forward? Or have they already??? But LE can't connect the dots due to evidence to make an arrest?

Voices run in families, too. I have my mom’s voice, timbre and tone. Some kids inherit grandpa’s voices.

This could be an issue, too. For example, a person could hear his brother’s recorded voice and think, “strange, it resembles grandpa”.

Our interpretation might play tricks with us.

 

[cujenn81]

This seems likely to me too — they probably have a partial or mixed sample. IF this is true, they’ve got pieces (or genetic sequences) but not enough of it to solve the puzzle (BG’s complete DNA profile). Although a partial sample isn’t sufficient enough to locate a potential match in their database, it IS (often) enough to rule out a specific suspect.

If a partial sample contains genetic markers that determine certain physical characteristics (like hair color, male pattern baldness, etc.), they could also have that information, as well.

I’m quoting my own post to say that I just thought about this:

In the podcast transcript of Scene of the Crime: Delphi — Evidence (episode 4), there’s some talk about the DNA samples obtained from various individuals.

The families have all given samples of their DNA, and Kelsie says she’s given them DNA three separate times. In addition, the Delphi residents spoken to during the course of the investigation were also asked to give voluntary DNA samples.

(In another episode, Tobe Leazenby stated that LE has collected DNA from every individual they've been interested in.)

IMO, this further suggests that LE may have a partial or mixed DNA profile. The samples obtained from Kelsie may prove to be very helpful someday — as KG’s DNA should look very similar to LG’s.

 

[Yemelyan]

I’m quoting my own post to say that I just thought about this:

In the podcast transcript of Scene of the Crime: Delphi — Evidence (episode 4), there’s some talk about the DNA samples obtained from various individuals.

The families have all given samples of their DNA, and Kelsie says she’s given them DNA three separate times. In addition, the Delphi residents spoken to during the course of the investigation were also asked to give voluntary DNA samples.

(In another episode, Tobe Leazenby stated that LE has collected DNA from every individual they've been interested in.)

IMO, this further suggests that LE may have a partial or mixed DNA profile. The samples obtained from Kelsie may prove to be very helpful someday — as KG’s DNA should look very similar to LG’s.

They should have a complete profile of Libby's DNA from her autopsy, though. They wouldn't need to reconstruct it from KG's. But perhaps I misunderstood your point there.

Other than that, I agree with what you've written.

 

[AllGrace]

You say you “looked into this at the time” and came to some conclusions, but respectfully, that is not evidence unless it matches what LE investigation has determined to be true. To my knowledge LE have not released a statement on the matter, so all we have is what LG’s family members have said. (Please correct me if I’m wrong.)

It is not unheard of for young people to take college courses (some for credit and others for noncredit). My daughter was recommended for and enrolled in a college course shortly after she turned 15. It was taught in her private high school by a PhD in Physics hired to teach that particular course (Pre-Calculus), but the textbook, syllabus, and exams were all provided by the professor who taught the course in the university and he graded all exams. Students earned the same college credits as those taking the course at the university and the course, grade, and credits earned appear on their college transcripts. Also, a friend’s son at age 11 attended a week-long, in-residence program at the same university, offered as part of a “gifted program.” That program does not offer college credit, but admission to and attendance in that program is recognized as a worthy achievement on college applications. Many of those students begin their university careers at 14 or 15.

I don’t know whether LG was doing something similar, but I am not going to dismiss the possibility until I know with certainty otherwise.

RSBM

It is in a prior thread, I believe quoting a family member that she took a Science Camp at Purdue. It was in summer and geared towards grade school/middle school students. I don’t think we need LE to confirm everything for it to be a fact. I don’t have time to read tens of thousands of posts, but it is there.

I am heavily involved in the education community in my state and surrounding states due to my consulting role and it is not common for 14-15 year olds take actual college courses for credit. My daughter graduated high school last year with two plus years of college complete. She started actual college classes at age 16 completely paid for by the state.

Additionally, the state of IN a doesn’t allow dual enrollment until 9th grade.

JMHO

 

[minazoe]

this puppy thing is bothering me and I'm hoping this has been checked out. I know as a young girl their age I was always scamming to get pets and also to get a dog..I found it ..etc...someone gave it to me..etc...thinking my parent couldn't possibly say no if the poor thing was just a lost puppy with no home. Also, later as an adult.. a couple of puppies that I purchased through a breeder would ask us to meet them at a halfway point to give us the puppy so we would not have to drive 6 hours.

I just feel like this needs to be seriously examined...did anyone know if one of the girls wanted a dog?

playing with a puppy would definitely make me want a puppy and I would meet you somewhere if you said you would give me a free puppy.

bothersome. mOO

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Please keep discussion of the Flora case in the thread dedicated to that discussion.

Also, do not post images of random people and try to make comparisons or suggest their involvement.

Thanks.

 

[Paige Franklin]

I’m quoting my own post to say that I just thought about this:

In the podcast transcript of Scene of the Crime: Delphi — Evidence (episode 4), there’s some talk about the DNA samples obtained from various individuals.

The families have all given samples of their DNA, and Kelsie says she’s given them DNA three separate times. In addition, the Delphi residents spoken to during the course of the investigation were also asked to give voluntary DNA samples.

(In another episode, Tobe Leazenby stated that LE has collected DNA from every individual they've been interested in.)

IMO, this further suggests that LE may have a partial or mixed DNA profile. The samples obtained from Kelsie may prove to be very helpful someday — as KG’s DNA should look very similar to LG’s.

I wonder if LE has considered going the route of checking Ancestry type databases. Seems like almost everyone has a relative who has created a profile on this of site.

 

[Yemelyan]

I wonder if LE has considered going the route of checking Ancestry type databases. Seems like almost everyone has a relative who has created a profile on this of site.

Both family members and LE have said they are looking into this technology if I recall correctly.

In addition, Paul Holes (criminalist involved in the use of genetic genealogy for the GSK case) said that he was approached by LE in the Delphi case to ask his opinion - which was that he believes, based on what they shared with him, that they would have a challenging time. He didn't offer specifics as to why he thought this.

Other than the April Tinsley case, does anyone know if there are other IN murder cases that have used this technology to convict? In the April Tinsley case the suspect confessed and no defense was mounted against his charges so I'm not sure if the legality of this in IN has ever been established/challenged.

 

[cujenn81]

They should have a complete profile of Libby's DNA from her autopsy, though. They wouldn't need to reconstruct it from KG's. But perhaps I misunderstood your point there.

Other than that, I agree with what you've written.

TRUE! I can’t believe I failed to realize that. But... it was pretty late — around 2 AM, I think. So, yeah... let’s just blame my huge oversight on that.

Although, now I’m confused as to why they needed to collect three samples from KG. Any idea?

 

[rosesfromangels]

TRUE! I can’t believe I failed to realize that. But... it was pretty late — around 2 AM, I think. So, yeah... let’s just blame my huge oversight on that.

Although, now I’m confused as to why they needed to collect three samples from KG. Any idea?

It sounds as if they are going to submit multiple samples to different systems for different types of tests. If they come close enough to what they are looking for, then they will test against Libby's actual DNA. Just a guess.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MissUnderstood]

hadn't we speculated there was a puppy inside BG's jacket? why do I feel like we had once discussed the idea that someone was meeting them there with a puppy...maybe it was just in the back of my mind as I tried to come up with reasons they might have gone there to meet someone... it wouldn't the first time a puppy has been used as a lure.

probably not..but it would be worth a look. I really think we did discuss this idea in the past, but this is the firstI heard of the new puppy Tara speaks of. mOO

I definitely remember there was talk about the puppy in the jacket! Moo

 

[MissUnderstood]

this puppy thing is bothering me and I'm hoping this has been checked out. I know as a young girl their age I was always scamming to get pets and also to get a dog..I found it ..etc...someone gave it to me..etc...thinking my parent couldn't possibly say no if the poor thing was just a lost puppy with no home. Also, later as an adult.. a couple of puppies that I purchased through a breeder would ask us to meet them at a halfway point to give us the puppy so we would not have to drive 6 hours.

I just feel like this needs to be seriously examined...did anyone know if one of the girls wanted a dog?

playing with a puppy would definitely make me want a puppy and I would meet you somewhere if you said you would give me a free puppy.

bothersome. mOO

only one of the girls had a new puppy, the could have been trying to get another! Moo

 

[MistyWaters]

TRUE! I can’t believe I failed to realize that. But... it was pretty late — around 2 AM, I think. So, yeah... let’s just blame my huge oversight on that.

Although, now I’m confused as to why they needed to collect three samples from KG. Any idea?

As KG drove the girls to the bridge in her car and lent them jackets it’s highly probable her DNA would’ve been found on the girls’ clothing, just as probable as that of all the respective family members just by the fact they lived in the same house. So LE would require all known DNA in order to begin to identify all the various DNA discovered. But I have no idea why LE would require three samples from her and I’d think that’d be a question she would’ve asked of them.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

Good point about most people not knowing diddly squat about this case. We here are the minority.

Honestly, if I had video and voice like that of someone...ANYONE THAT I ACTUALLY KNOW... I would know it was them instantly.

So... here is my supposition from that conclusion: 1) The publicity of BG his photo/video and voice somehow DID NOT REACH the 2 or 3 people who actually know him or...… 2) It reached them and they are reluctant to come forward.

How do you get video and audio of the killer and someone doesn't come forward? Or have they already??? But LE can't connect the dots due to evidence to make an arrest?

Voices run in families, too. I have my mom’s voice, timbre and tone. Some kids inherit grandpa’s voices.

This could be an issue, too. For example, a person could hear his brother’s recorded voice and think, “strange, it resembles grandpa”.

Our interpretation might play tricks with us.

They should have a complete profile of Libby's DNA from her autopsy, though. They wouldn't need to reconstruct it from KG's. But perhaps I misunderstood your point there.

Other than that, I agree with what you've written.

Not reconstruct - phase, theoretically, but not relevant for Libby, as both parents are available. Phasing of Abby's one against her mom makes more sense.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not reconstruct - phase, theoretically, but not relevant for Libby, as both parents are available. Phasing of Abby's one against her mom makes more sense.

Phasing of DNA, not sure what you’re referring to? The bodies of both girls were located and as Yemelyan stated, forensic scientists would collect DNA directly from each of them during the autopsy process. There would be absolutely no need to create a DNA profile by utilizing DNA of their parents, nor is parentage the issue at stake.

 

[Yemelyan]

TRUE! I can’t believe I failed to realize that. But... it was pretty late — around 2 AM, I think. So, yeah... let’s just blame my huge oversight on that.

Although, now I’m confused as to why they needed to collect three samples from KG. Any idea?

KG's DNA, as someone who shared clothes with both and also a household with one of the victims, would be needed as an elimination sample that was likely used on multiple items, each of which may have been tested by multiple (perhaps some private) labs.

It's a long read, but this article may shed some light:
The False Promise of DNA Testing

Mixed samples, which these may be, are really hard for analysts to figure out. The article gives examples of this exact scenario.

There are different private labs out there, each with their own algorithms for analyzing mixed sample, highly degraded, or very tiny amounts of DNA. The Delphi samples could have been any of those.

 

[Falling Down]

How many people here have walked on a rickety old railroad bridge like this? ( I hold my hand up). Walked across a couple of these over the James River and Maury River in Virginia.

The odd gait of BG is perfectly understandable. The distance between ties is too close to step one on one and too far to skip every other tie. it is very awkward. Then, you have vertigo looking thru the openings and seeing you are 30 feet above the water. It is pretty scary. I personally would not put any stock in whether he looks like he is walking directly toward the girls or has some sort of limp. I think each of us would look the same gait wise doing the same thing.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree.

I walked 6 feet out on to the MHB a month ago, and 6 feet back on to solid ground.

It is that scary.

JMO

 

[cujenn81]

KG's DNA, as someone who shared clothes with both and also a household with one of the victims, would be needed as an elimination sample that was likely used on multiple items, each of which may have been tested by multiple (perhaps some private) labs.

It's a long read, but this article may shed some light:
The False Promise of DNA Testing

Mixed samples, which these may be, are really hard for analysts to figure out. The article gives examples of this exact scenario.

There are different private labs out there, each with their own algorithms for analyzing mixed sample, highly degraded, or very tiny amounts of DNA. The Delphi samples could have been any of those.

Thanks for sharing this — it’s very enlightening.

 

[BNA]

Kelsie says she’s given them DNA three separate times.

I gotta say that this is a thing that makes me go "Hmm" every time I see it.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I gotta say that this is a thing that makes me go "Hmm" every time I see it.

Yes indeed. Hmmm.