Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[minazoe]

10 year old girl missing in Muncie Indiana , 2 hours from Delphi.
Police Searching for 10-Year-Old Girl Missing From Indiana

 

[Yemelyan]

10 year old girl missing in Muncie Indiana , 2 hours from Delphi.
Police Searching for 10-Year-Old Girl Missing From Indiana

Luckily Muncie Police say she's been located and is safe: Log into Facebook

 

[sandy_80]

sorry but there is noting in the video to indicate he is young...the video is very blurry and no matter

You don’t think that locals in a very small town would have a better educated guess or theory than randoms on the internet, who may not even reside in the states?

edit — I should say, there are (at least were) FB groups dedicated to the young girls who featured comments from locals. I wouldn’t be surprised if many were hush for fear of legality issues.

the most interesting group was run by the late 70 year old local sleuth ..who passed away last year.. it was very small and he had witnesses and locals in the group that was allegedly monitored by le...he gave the community very important information and was attacked and harassed all the time

 

[sandy_80]

sorry but there is noting in the video to indicate he is young...the video is very blurry and no matter

You don’t think that locals in a very small town would have a better educated guess or theory than randoms on the internet, who may not even reside in the states?

edit — I should say, there are (at least were) FB groups dedicated to the young girls who featured comments from locals. I wouldn’t be surprised if many were hush for fear of legality issues.

the most interesting group was run by the late 70 year old local sleuth ..who passed away last year.. it was very small and he had witnesses and locals in the group that was allegedly monitored by le...he gave the community very important information and was attacked and harassed all the time

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

Snipped and bolded by me.

What's the proof that LE failed to secure the crime scene? Do you have a source for this or is it your speculation? They only knew that area of Ron Logan's property was a crime scene after the girls' bodies were discovered in the morning of the 14th. I don't think you can call "letting civilians search for missing juveniles" a failure to secure the crime scene as everybody thought they were searching for lost girls, not murdered girls. LE thought they were doing search and recovery work, not criminal investigation work.

To me, "failure to secure the crime scene" is like what happened in the JonBenet Ramsay case. By virtue of the ransom note, LE had good reason to believe that a crime happened in that house and yet allowed family to stay there and friends come over and wander around. That's not at all analogous to how the crime scene was discovered or treated in Delphi.

Sgt. Kim Reilly admitted the crime scene was possibly compromised due to the amount of feet on the ground.

Also, maybe law enforcement did “secure the crime scene” by simple acts such as: securing points of entries & exits. Granted, resources were probably limited, so who knows.
—
@sandy_80 – I never mentioned descriptions regarding (BG’s?) age, nor am I familiar with that group. I originally stated I value a locals’ opinion or theory more so than a random sleuth. It’s definitely not a preposterous statement.

 

[heartgoesout]

Maybe for the mass shooter type of offender (though I'd still say that their rage is often tied up in sexual inadequacy so sexual issues are still at play).

But for the type of criminal who abducts a child and kills them, which is what was being discussed? Outside of domestic violence-type incidents, that's sexual a massive, overwhelming amount of the time.

The reason the sexual motivation in murders may not always be immediately apparent to you (especially if what you'd define as "sexual activity" did not occur during the crime) is that normal people associate sexual desire with the urge to experience pleasure. But for most of these offenders sexual desire is tied to anger, to the urge to dominate, control, punish, hurt.

Thank you for your thoughts. I still disagree. And like you said, most... but most... is not all. A person can absolutely feel intense rage that leads them to murder that has no sexual relation whatsoever. Your statement is simply opinion, which I appreciate, but is not fact.

 

[heartgoesout]

Totally agree. One of our verified insider experts, who is a criminal investigator (retired) stated a while back that outside of parental custody fights, anytime a child is abducted and or killed, the motive is almost always sexual.

Almost always is not always.
Let's be careful not to pigeonhole.

 

[Ozoner]

Almost always is not always.
Let's be careful not to pigeonhole.

Can you name a single case where an adolescent female was killed by a non-family-member adult male where there wasn't a sexual component? A female victim could be a surrogate for another female against whom the perpetrator feels rage, but I would argue that there is still sexual element in that sexual frustration or rejection by the opposite sex is driving the rage.

 

[Yemelyan]

Sgt. Kim Reilly admitted the crime scene was possibly compromised due to the amount of feet on the ground.

Also, maybe law enforcement did “secure the crime scene” by simple acts such as: securing points of entries & exits. Granted, resources were probably limited, so who knows.

If I recall correctly, Sgt. Riley's opinion was given in the podcast Down the Hill, which also featured an interview with Supt. Carter where he says it was his opinion that there was nothing the searchers did that compromised the scene. So I guess LE have varying opinions on that.

I would still say that a contaminated crime scene (if it was) is not necessarily because LE failed to secure it, because this implies they didn't secure it once they knew a crime had occurred. We truly don't know exactly what they did but I have to think, because the ISP was on scene when the girls were found and the FBI Rapid Response team processed the scene, that all the expertise that could have been brought to bear, probably was. That's JMO though.

This article talks about the FBI evidence team's involvement: Police confirm bodies found near Delphi are missing teens, searching for suspect | wthr.com

The article also has a video that shows a lot of different views of the wooded area where the girls were found.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

Over time, law enforcement has stated:

— isolated incident;
— local community not at risk;
— not tied to other crimes;
— crime scene has likely been altered (ex-prosecutor Ives);
— DNA was recovered but specifics aren’t answered because of “ongoing investigation” (Leazenby);
— suspect doesn’t have blue eyes
— newest sketch released is “responsible for the murders”;
— the first sketch released is now considered “secondary”;
— suspect likely knew the girls were at/going to be at the bridge that day;
— catching suspect will be easy; providing evidence to convict without error is the difficult part
—
@Yemelyan — offhand, do you know if the cemetery was secured in a timely fashion? Crime scenes, of course, are started large and eventually shrink.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Over time, law enforcement has stated:

— isolated incident;
— local community not at risk;
— not tied to other crimes;
— crime scene has likely been altered (ex-prosecutor Ives);
— DNA was recovered but specifics aren’t answered because of “ongoing investigation” (Leazenby);
— suspect doesn’t have blue eyes
— newest sketch released is “responsible for the murders”;
— the first sketch released is now considered “secondary”;
— suspect likely knew the girls were at/going to be at the bridge that day;
— catching suspect will be easy; providing evidence to convict without error is the difficult part
—
@Yemelyan — offhand, do you know if the cemetery was secured in a timely fashion? Crime scenes, of course, are started large and eventually shrink.

I was wondering where you heard the 9th thing you listed “suspect likely knew the girls were at/going to be at the bridge that day”. I don’t ever remember anyone in LE saying that.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I was wondering where you heard the 9th thing you listed “suspect likely knew the girls were at/going to be at the bridge that day”. I don’t ever remember anyone in LE saying that.

Via Captain Dave Burston [paraphrased]: “chance encounter[...] not likely.”
—
I should have made mention that local authorities were looking for a man walking along the highway who they were interested in questioning early on in the investigation.

 

[Ekliptika]

As I am newer to this case I guess this has been discussed before, if so I would be grateful for a link to a thread.
Has it been officially stated by LE if they believe the man on the bridge filmed by the girls is also the one who murdered them?
I listened to the 2019 Press conference again and noticed that Carter says that the voice belongs to the man on the bridge with the girls. When the new sketch is revieled LE States that they believe this a sketch of the person responsible of murdering the girls. But as I recall it LE does not explicitly connect the voice and the new/2nd sketch? The voice is not directly linked to the new sketch? Or did I miss something?

 

[Ozoner]

Via Captain Dave Burston [paraphrased]: “chance encounter[...] not likely.”
—
I should have made mention that local authorities were looking for a man walking along the highway who they were interested in questioning early on in the investigation.

Do you have a source for that with the full context? They have never stated that the perp knew that the girls were going to be there.
If the perp was there hunting for victims, that in itself would mean that it wasn't a "chance encounter."

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Via Captain Dave Burston [paraphrased]: “chance encounter[...] not likely.”
—
I should have made mention that local authorities were looking for a man walking along the highway who they were interested in questioning early on in the investigation.

The only reference close to this I found was a blog dated Nov 27 2017 that had a audio/video(?) clip that is no longer available. The blogger paraphrased and it is very unclear what was a question and what was Burston’s response:

“One of two things happened. That was a chance encounter? That's possible. Don't think it's likely, but it's possible. . . or that person knew that they were going to be there. That's possible as well."

I wouldn’t call that a definitive statement about that subject. Just my opinion.

 

[MistyWaters]

Over time, law enforcement has stated:

— isolated incident;
— local community not at risk;
— not tied to other crimes;
— crime scene has likely been altered (ex-prosecutor Ives);
— DNA was recovered but specifics aren’t answered because of “ongoing investigation” (Leazenby);
— suspect doesn’t have blue eyes
— newest sketch released is “responsible for the murders”;
— the first sketch released is now considered “secondary”;
— suspect likely knew the girls were at/going to be at the bridge that day;
— catching suspect will be easy; providing evidence to convict without error is the difficult part
—
@Yemelyan — offhand, do you know if the cemetery was secured in a timely fashion? Crime scenes, of course, are started large and eventually shrink.

IIRC was not LE who stated the suspect didn’t have blue eyes, it was a witness involved with the first sketch. The FBI wanted poster indicates eye colour to be Unknown.

Several other comments you’ve stated were prefaced with words such as “we believe” or “we don’t believe”. But as we’ve noted over time, as the investigation moves along nothing is written in stone.

 

[heartgoesout]

Can you name a single case where an adolescent female was killed by a non-family-member adult male where there wasn't a sexual component? A female victim could be a surrogate for another female against whom the perpetrator feels rage, but I would argue that there is still sexual element in that sexual frustration or rejection by the opposite sex is driving the rage.

We don't know who killed these precious girls. We have not been offered any POI's by LE or a profile for that matter. To say this HAD to have been sexually motivated and ALL child murders are ALWAYS sexually motivated is irresponsible and does a great injustice to them.
If this was retaliation or revenge, which has been discussed and is a possibility, or the girls saw something they shouldn't have, it is absolutely possible there was not a sexual element. We simply do not have enough information in this particular case to rule out potential suspects based on what one thinks is a constant. While I agree that a sick sexual element is likely, I keep an open mind as to not pass over all possibilities.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

The only reference close to this I found was a blog dated Nov 27 2017 that had a audio/video(?) clip that is no longer available. The blogger paraphrased and it is very unclear what was a question and what was Burston’s response:

“One of two things happened. That was a chance encounter? That's possible. Don't think it's likely, but it's possible. . . or that person knew that they were going to be there. That's possible as well."

I wouldn’t call that a definitive statement about that subject. Just my opinion.

Not definitive, as “likely” was used in context. Strange, my initial source was from a WS post (I want to say in thread 124) which had the YT video — which seems to now have been deleted. I’ll have to do some digging as my only note for this has the original presser being “2/22/17.”

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Not definitive, as “likely” was used in context. Strange, my initial source was from a WS post (I want to say in thread 124) which had the YT video — which seems to now have been deleted. I’ll have to do some digging as my only note for this has the original presser being “2/22/17.”

Thanks for being so diligent and trying to sort it out.
As we all know, LE has backtracked on tons of things they have said over the past four years. It’s hard to keep it all straight.

 

[Yemelyan]

—
@Yemelyan — offhand, do you know if the cemetery was secured in a timely fashion? Crime scenes, of course, are started large and eventually shrink.

Snipped.

I'm not a member of the Delphi Police Department or the ISP so I have no way of knowing. But I do know that a contaminated crime scene (if it was) is not always due to "failing to secure it," so I'd never assume that was the case based on what the public does know about this crime.

IMO you picked and chose your quotes from LE to make your list, which is not that accurate. An opinion by Dave Bursten, the public information officer, that was given two days after the victims were found, should not be considered representative of current investigative theory on this case. Also Robert Ives never said the crime scene was "altered." And I'm not sure what altered would even mean. Neither signatures (which he definitely says were there) or staging (which he didn't say, but the Daily Mail interpreted his remarks to mean) would be considered "alterations," they are significant and intrinsic parts of the crime scene that point to motive and offender behavior.