Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[Yemelyan]

We don't know who killed these precious girls. We have not been offered any POI's by LE or a profile for that matter. To say this HAD to have been sexually motivated and ALL child murders are ALWAYS sexually motivated is irresponsible and does a great injustice to them.
If this was retaliation or revenge, which has been discussed and is a possibility, or the girls saw something they shouldn't have, it is absolutely possible there was not a sexual element. We simply do not have enough information in this particular case to rule out potential suspects based on what one thinks is a constant. While I agree that a sick sexual element is likely, I keep an open mind as to not pass over all possibilities.

It always helps to see things in numbers, so here we go.

The studies of child abduction and murder that have the largest sample of non-family crimes, such as the Keppel and Brown study which looked at over 500 cases, have found that offenders who abduct and murder children have a primary motivation that is sexual between 70-80% of the time. Profit motivations are around 3% and emotion-based primary motivations were seen around 8% of the time. (But see my note below.) The rest of the cases had "unknown" motivation. The authors of the study pointed out, however, that in a portion of the cases where the primary motivation was not sexual, the secondary motivation was sexual. (Note: "child" in this study was anyone under the age of 18, so some of the abduction/murder cases represented peer-related aggression by other teens.)

Therefore, the children murdered in non-family abduction situations are killed for sexual reasons the vast, overwhelming majority of the time, especially when their abductor/killer is an adult. Sure, you'll be able to find a few outliers, though.

 

[MistyWaters]

Snipped.

I'm not a member of the Delphi Police Department or the ISP so I have no way of knowing. But I do know that a contaminated crime scene (if it was) is not always due to "failing to secure it," so I'd never assume that was the case based on what the public does know about this crime.

IMO you picked and chose your quotes from LE to make your list, which is not that accurate. An opinion by Dave Bursten, the public information officer, that was given two days after the victims were found, should not be considered representative of current investigative theory on this case. Also Robert Ives never said the crime scene was "altered." And I'm not sure what altered would even mean. Neither signatures (which he definitely says were there) or staging (which he didn't say, but the Daily Mail interpreted his remarks to mean) would be considered "alterations," they are significant and intrinsic parts of the crime scene that point to motive and offender behavior.

To the topic of the well known unreliable content of Daily Mail reports, it wasn’t photos of Libby which she posted on Snapchat. How ridiculous is that, for a writer to report about Libby’s sister wishing her “a happy heavenly birthday” while being totally oblivious to the basic well-publicized details about the case.

“Libby had posted photos of herself on Snapchat walking on the bridge on the day she and Abby vanished.”
Sister of Delphi murder victim holds out hope her sibling's killer will be found in 2021 | Daily Mail Online

 

[heartgoesout]

It always helps to see things in numbers, so here we go.

The studies of child abduction and murder that have the largest sample of non-family crimes, such as the Keppel and Brown study which looked at over 500 cases, have found that offenders who abduct and murder children have a primary motivation that is sexual between 70-80% of the time. Profit motivations are around 3% and emotion-based primary motivations were seen around 8% of the time. (But see my note below.) The rest of the cases had "unknown" motivation. The authors of the study pointed out, however, that in a portion of the cases where the primary motivation was not sexual, the secondary motivation was sexual. (Note: "child" in this study was anyone under the age of 18, so some of the abduction/murder cases represented peer-related aggression by other teens.)

Therefore, the children murdered in non-family abduction situations are killed for sexual reasons the vast, overwhelming majority of the time, especially when their abductor/killer is an adult. Sure, you'll be able to find a few outliers, though.

Perfect, thank you for backing up exactly what I was saying. A good 20-30% of children murdered, based on your quoted study, was found not sexually motivated. Actually higher than I would have estimated.

 

[TedMac]

We don't know who killed these precious girls. We have not been offered any POI's by LE or a profile for that matter. To say this HAD to have been sexually motivated and ALL child murders are ALWAYS sexually motivated is irresponsible and does a great injustice to them.
If this was retaliation or revenge, which has been discussed and is a possibility, or the girls saw something they shouldn't have, it is absolutely possible there was not a sexual element. We simply do not have enough information in this particular case to rule out potential suspects based on what one thinks is a constant. While I agree that a sick sexual element is likely, I keep an open mind as to not pass over all possibilities.

You are correct in saying we don't know the motivation for these murders and most of us are keeping an open mind. But, I do think it is telling that the first thing LE did once the bodies were discovered was to reach out to the local sex offenders and question them. I really don't think that was a coincidence,

 

[heartgoesout]

You are correct in saying we don't know the motivation for these murders and most of us are keeping an open mind. But, I do think it is telling that the first thing LE did once the bodies were discovered was to reach out to the local sex offenders and question them. I really don't think that was a coincidence,

Of course, as they should have. They also served warrants on non sex offenders. My disagreement was with the statement ALL child murderers motive is sexual which is simply false.

 

[Yemelyan]

Perfect, thank you for backing up exactly what I was saying. A good 20-30% of children murdered, based on your quoted study, was found not sexually motivated. Actually higher than I would have estimated.

Maybe re-read the part about primary and secondary motivations.

I think it's telling that if you remove peer aggressions from the grouping (these tended to be male victims of teen years) and looked at just adult offender/female child crimes the picture was quite different.

But, I get it. Because something can't be ruled out with 100% certainty, there will always be some people who think it deserves to be discussed as a possibility equally on par with the most likely motivation. No one wants sexual assault to be the reason they were killed because it's indignity upon indignity. I guess for some it's easier to take if we imagine that their offender just got really mad or was trying to get revenge.

 

[heartgoesout]

Maybe re-read the part about primary and secondary motivations.

I think it's telling that if you remove peer aggressions from the grouping (these tended to be male victims of teen years) and looked at just adult offender/female child crimes the picture was quite different.

But, I get it. Because something can't be ruled out with 100% certainty, there will always be some people who think it deserves to be discussed as a possibility equally on par with the most likely motivation. No one wants sexual assault to be the reason they were killed because it's indignity upon indignity. I guess for some it's easier to take if we imagine that their offender just got really mad or was trying to get revenge.

Sure it may be easier to take, but sometimes it just wasn't sexually motivated.

 

[Yemelyan]

Sure it may be easier to take, but sometimes it just wasn't sexually motivated.

Sure. Just for the heck of it, I decided to see if I could do what @Ozoner challenged you to do and come up with a non-family example of a female child victim of abduction and murder. So far I've only found one (Katelynn Cargill in Bedford, TX - but it was a peer aggression over drugs so it doesn't fit the criteria of what we were talking about). I'm still looking though. I'm sure there are a couple modern cases that can be found. And then I can see how similar those cases may be to what happened to Abby and Libby - abducted on a trail and found the next day with some of their clothes in the creek.

 

[TedMac]

Of course, as they should have. They also served warrants on non sex offenders. My disagreement was with the statement ALL child murderers motive is sexual which is simply false.

I'm not going to keep this discussion going on this subject, but I will conclude by saying if you go back and check my post on page 9, I said "almost all". I did not say all.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

To my way of thinking it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If they search through the night, they've allowed people to traipse through and contaminate the crime scene and failed to secure it (according to some). If they send the bulk of the people away at dark for fear someone will get hurt searching, then they are incompetent (according to others). I'm really glad I'm not in charge of making these decisions, I am more comfortable just criticizing them after the fact.

But, volunteers — including MP — did continue to search throughout the night.

Edit — I’ve never seen the “official” reasoning the search was called off via LE. Granted, I imagine “terrain” and “safety” (although not confirmed) to be the case. Fast-forward to the 2:00 minute mark and now we hear they did continue searching through the night and early morning hours.

Or maybe LE is simply siphoning credit from volunteers.

 

[JnRyan]

IIRC was not LE who stated the suspect didn’t have blue eyes, it was a witness involved with the first sketch. The FBI wanted poster indicates eye colour to be Unknown.

Several other comments you’ve stated were prefaced with words such as “we believe” or “we don’t believe”. But as we’ve noted over time, as the investigation moves along nothing is written in stone.

Part of some of the confusion about the sketches. It is ISP Sgt Kim Riley who states the witness [singular] who was close enough to see that his eye color was 'unknown', but they weren't blue.
UPDATE: Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths

This gave me the impression at the time that the first sketch released was based on one witness. Yet later at CrimeCon, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman indicates that the first sketch was a composite of more than one witness. Sometimes I get the impression that between the different LE involved they aren't reading from the same sheet of music.

 

[mom2chloe]

Part of some of the confusion about the sketches. It is ISP Sgt Kim Riley who states the witness [singular] who was close enough to see that his eye color was 'unknown', but they weren't blue.
UPDATE: Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths

This gave me the impression at the time that the first sketch released was based on one witness. Yet later at CrimeCon, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman indicates that the first sketch was a composite of more than one witness. Sometimes I get the impression that between the different LE involved they aren't reading from the same sheet of music.

I wonder if one of the sketches or both are based on a witness of the real BG’w profile or if they were misled by a few original witnesses. IMO I tend to lean toward a wrong description and lack or false alibi. I will never understand this case nor the investigative dynamics. Ever! Imo

 

[StarryStarryNight]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I’ll just throw this out there concerning the cemetery. I have always been under the impression that the cemetery was used by a lot of people and LE to park their cars while the search was going on for the girls. After the girls were found dead, people couldn’t retrieve their cars until they were cleared by law enforcement. The helicopter news footage taken that day shows tons of vehicles parked at the cemetery, so it seems to be true. Because of that, I would think the cemetery would be worthless as part of the crime scene. No tire marks, etc.

 

[Ozoner]

Perfect, thank you for backing up exactly what I was saying. A good 20-30% of children murdered, based on your quoted study, was found not sexually motivated. Actually higher than I would have estimated.

You apparently didn't read the entire post, because it said that there was a secondary motivation that was sexual in some of those 20—30% of cases, and in some of them the motivation wasn't known.

It also included anyone under 18, it included male and female victims, and it included victims murdered by people within their own peer group.

If you look at cases of adolescent females killed by non-family adult males, I suspect that the motivation would be sexual in virtually 100% of cases.

I asked whether you could name a single case where an adolescent female was murdered by a non-family adult male where the motivation wasn't sexual, and you still haven't responded; I take that to mean that you are unable to name a single such case. (I'm sure you could find cases where an entire family was massacred for revenge, but I'm talking about cases where only a young female or young females were murdered.)

It may be a moot point because in this case, we can infer a sexual motivation based on what is known. The investigators have mentioned signatures present at the crime scene; signatures are a characteristic of sexually motivated homicides, period. There are no "signatures" in revenge killings, killings for profit, etc.

We don't know whether the girls were sexually assaulted. We do know that the motivation was sexual.

 

[news buff]

You apparently didn't read the entire post, because it said that there was a secondary motivation that was sexual in some of those 20—30% of cases, and in some of them the motivation wasn't known.

It also included anyone under 18, it included male and female victims, it included cases where the motivation wasn't known, and it included victims murdered by people within their own peer group.

If you look at cases of adolescent females killed by non-family adult males, I suspect that the motivation would be sexual in virtually 100% of cases.

I asked whether you could name a single case where an adolescent female was murdered by a non-family adult male where the motivation wasn't sexual, and you still haven't responded; I take that to mean that you are unable to name a single such case. (I'm sure you could find cases where an entire family was massacred for revenge, but I'm talking about cases where only a young female or young females were murdered.)

It may be a moot point because in this case, we can infer a sexual motivation based on what is known. The investigators have mentioned signatures present at the crime scene; signatures are a characteristic of sexually motivated homicides, period. There are no "signatures" in revenge killings, killings for profit, etc.

We don't know whether the girls were sexually assaulted. We do know that the motivation was sexual.

There are signatures in revenge killings, killings for profit etc when a killer uses misdirection.

 

[stattlich1]

I'm not in any way a professional crime scene investigator, rather, just an observant rookie on the sidelines of an appalling murder.

I can't see the actual CS, where the girls bodies were found, being terribly contaminated, as their bodies weren't found until daylight the next day. If it was contaminated, then IMO it was so at the hands of the murderer, or an accomplice ie. someone intent on leading LE astray.

As for the surrounding area, if you determine the crime scene to be the general geographical area encompassing all of the bridge, the trail, the drop off parking lot, and even the old social services building, then yeah, it was surely traipsed over by searchers, likely a lot of them from what I've read.

As to the cemetery, interesting that I recall the following day that cemetery had numerous vehicles in it, seeing some 20 or more on the RTV6 aerial footage, but I imagine them to be LE and the location to be secured at that time. FWIW, I think the cemetery provided LE easy access to the CS where the girls were found. Either that, or there was some indication the killer had spent some time in that vicinity, indeed, IMO the cemetery provided the killer the same access, easy in, and easy, undetected, out of there.

I think the evil ******* parked there at that cemetery, was able to walk down through, making sure the area was clear, then headed up to a point where he had clear sight of the trail towards it's beginning, likely being seen on the trail as he wandered about. Then back to his hidden perch, the girls passing by, he follows, the CS being the final location, thence out via the way he came. MOO.

 

[Ravenmoon]

What I learned in Psychology is that extra-familial perpetrators often have extreme feelings of inferiority and can appear shy, reserved, nervous, even anxious. They tend to find comfort in a fantasy life, here.. they have more power and more control and this becomes much more a mental and emotional place that they dwell in. That is - until they make the decision that a physical release is a viable option.

When that desire becomes a reality 44 percent of these cases end up with a dead child in an hour.
I believe over 70 percent are murdered within 3.

In victims between the ages of 13 and 17 , these perpetrators are overwhelmingly non-familial , are sexually motivated AND weapons are used.

To me, the theory that this age group is by far targeted for sexual reasons , is logical, probable and likely.

I do understand that there could be other potential reasons.. revenge being one. I have heard those theories in this case, and I would not rule them out. . having said that - I would still have to agree that some type of sexual deviance or satisfaction was secondary. I cannot fathom that a person would carry out such a volatile act and not get some type of gratification from it. To add to that theory the fact that there are statements of at least 2 or 3 signatures? Well....I will just leave it at that.

And while I do have a little education is psychology , I am not , nor do I claim to be an expert . It just all fits together in a case with a ton of missing pieces.

JMO AMOO MOO

 

[Ozoner]

There are signatures in revenge killings, killings for profit etc when a killer uses misdirection.

By definition, those wouldn't be genuine signatures. Signatures are rooted in the psychological needs of the killer. You're talking about a staged crime scene, which trained investigators can spot a mile away. The FBI has been on board since day one, and I'll give their field agents credit for being able to recognize genuine signatures.

 

[JnRyan]

We're coming up on the four year mark in just a few weeks and it would not surprise me if LE again decides not to have a PC at that point. The media and maybe the family and/or the community might do something, but I just get the feeling that LE might not. I get the feeling that LE considered the April 2019 PC's "new direction" to be final PC effort for a while to come and any further PC's might detract from that "new direction". Just a gut feeling on my part and nothing beyond that point. And when I try to think of what LE can release in the way of information, I really can't think of much that they can put out there that would not harm the investigation. I would love to know about the vehicle parked at the old CPS building, but I don't believe LE knows much more than just simply a vehicle - i.e., no color, make or model.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

We're coming up on the four year mark in just a few weeks and it would not surprise me if LE again decides not to have a PC at that point. The media and maybe the family and/or the community might do something, but I just get the feeling that LE might not. I get the feeling that LE considered the April 2019 PC's "new direction" to be final PC effort for a while to come and any further PC's might detract from that "new direction". Just a gut feeling on my part and nothing beyond that point. And when I try to think of what LE can release in the way of information, I really can't think of much that they can put out there that would not harm the investigation. I would love to know about the vehicle parked at the old CPS building, but I don't believe LE knows much more than just simply a vehicle - i.e., no color, make or model.

Do you recall the distance between the CPS office and the trailhead? I want to say it was quite a distance — 5+ miles — if I had to guess. It’s worth noting the trailhead has parking upfront, so there was definitely something interesting regarding this vehicle. Couple the time (12-5) LE was looking for public help regarding this vehicle + the girls likely time of death cushioned in that span, and we’re likely left wondering if “BG” was in the area for roughly a hour or so (assuming a possibility the CPS vehicle could have been linked to BG, of course).