Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[ShamelessObserver]

Do people often walk across the bridge involved then? Would it seem normal to them to see someone walking over the bridge towards them??

 

[Yemelyan]

Do people often walk across the bridge involved then? Would it seem normal to them to see someone walking over the bridge towards them??

From my understanding, people don't often walk across as it's so dilapidated and high off the ground. Evidently it was understood that if someone else was on the bridge, you didn't try to pass them (for safety reasons). So, when he came toward them they likely stood aside at one end and waited to let him go by. He probably knew or expected this - it was part of his trap. IMO

 

[TedMac]

Do people often walk across the bridge involved then? Would it seem normal to them to see someone walking over the bridge towards them??

Again, as Yemelyan stated, the reason they did not just walk or run away "is that they did not know they were in grave danger until the moment was happening." Abby & Libby had walked across that bridge and I am sure others did, too from time to time. It was Abby's first time walking over the bridge, but Libby had done this before and I feel sure she had seen others do it. Perhaps it wasn't "normal" as you stated, but I'm certain she had seen others do it before.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

Again, as Yemelyan stated, the reason they did not just walk or run away "is that they did not know they were in grave danger until the moment was happening." Abby & Libby had walked across that bridge and I am sure others did, too from time to time. It was Abby's first time walking over the bridge, but Libby had done this before and I feel sure she had seen others do it. Perhaps it wasn't "normal" as you stated, but I'm certain she had seen others do it before.

If Libby had done it before then perhaps the killer had seen her on the bridge before? Maybe they'd already had an interaction or even an argument.

 

[Justice101]

Just wanted to share one of my many random thoughts that pop into my head daily about this heinous crime. My thoughts and opinions of course.

It has to do with the searchers and the deer/s. So in my mind I picture a decent amount of people making a lot of noise, be it yelling the girls names, possibly on walkie talkies or cell phones and rustling through the wooded area while searching in broad daylight would deer just be hanging out? Aren’t they known to be skittish animals? I find it so very odd that a searcher happens to see some deer just standing there then spots the bodies. Did any other searcher actually see the deer?

As a former deer hunter, it is also plausible that the deer were driven into that area because of the pressure (humans yelling, humans walking around) that would have driven them in the way away from the excitement. The place where the girls were found would be a logical place.. across the creek from the people yelling as well as away from the trail. Remember, most of the searchers were probably searing downstream (not upstream were the bodies were found)assuming that they fell off the bridge or otherwise drowned.

However, I do not know if a deer would hang around a dead body. I would think the smell of humans would surpass their curiosity of an unusual object like lifeless human bodies.. .but I don't know

 

[Justice101]

Good discussion today.

The other thing about why the girls did not run is you hear all the time that people are just stunned and stand there.. not knowing what to do. This uncertainty/hesitation happens and they might have just been "frozen in their footprints" unable to move.

He probably was acting lie he was walking down the West side of the bridge only to quickly switch the East side and pull a gun/knife. At that point, he was right on them and they were probably stunned and only thing they thought to do was comply.

 

[sunshineray]

Come on, now...it's for the same reason Molly Bish didn't run away, or Holly Piirainen, or Etan Patz, Amber Hagerman, Jaycee Dugard, the Lyon sisters, Amy Mihalejevic, April Tinsley, Jacob Wetterling, Lyric Cook and Lizzy Collins, the list of child victims abducted from public spaces and murdered goes on and on and on.

The reason these victims didn't "just run away" is that they did not know they were in grave danger until the moment was happening. Most offenders who abduct children aim for some type of either quiet coercion (a ruse to get close enough to take control) or a so-called "blitz attack" that the victim doesn't see coming.

In Libby and Abby's case, they thought a weirdo was approaching, not a killer. Libby had the apparent foresight to video a man whose presence seemed odd to them, but let's not let that fact cause us to forget that they were innocent, small town kids who had likely never been confronted with someone whose intention was to harm them in this way. Violent offenders are typically great readers of human behavior and count on the fact that most people (including children) will not run away or try to fight until it's too late. IMO.

One of the things that gets me the most is according to Abby's Mom, in the extra audio she was allowed to listen to, Abby made a comment about wanting to move away from her approaching killer. Abby saying that and Libby hitting the record button show they were uncomfortable and felt some foreboding. So very sad.

 

[rosesfromangels]

One of the things that gets me the most is according to Abby's Mom, in the extra audio she was allowed to listen to, Abby made a comment about wanting to move away from her approaching killer. Abby saying that and Libby hitting the record button show they were uncomfortable and felt some foreboding. So very sad.

Yes, I listened to some interviews Anna (Abby's Mom) gave, and learned some new things. Folks can search MSM, and there are some good interviews with her on YT as well. Her descriptions took me right to that bridge, and I am deeply effected by this case once again. I find I have to take breaks from following it.
I'm not so sure that this Perp wasn't in LE's crosshairs as he was investigated from another/other crimes at one point and is now deceased. I have faith in the agencies supporting this case, and if they crossed him off the list they must be right. But yet, I still wonder.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[somequestions]

One of the things that gets me the most is according to Abby's Mom, in the extra audio she was allowed to listen to, Abby made a comment about wanting to move away from her approaching killer. Abby saying that and Libby hitting the record button show they were uncomfortable and felt some foreboding. So very sad.

If I were at the April 2019 press conference listening to the Superintendent and looking at a copy of the 2nd sketch I would have left thinking this does not seem like it is the killer. I think if you look at it psychologically you have to at least wonder why Liberty German took the phone video? I know all the explanations everyone has, but according to what I have read about her she had been to the Monon High Bridge trail before. Obviously she must have seen other people there before. It is ironic that none of us can make out the face in the video, yet she videotaped this person on the bridge.

I think this person will have some strange type of handicap or facial features seeing as how the first thing we usually see on a person is their face. I may be overanalyzing why Liberty German took the video, but whatever the reason she felt some sort of apprehension. Hopefully someday the phone video ends up solving the case.

 

[coastal]

Good discussion today.

The other thing about why the girls did not run is you hear all the time that people are just stunned and stand there.. not knowing what to do. This uncertainty/hesitation happens and they might have just been "frozen in their footprints" unable to move.

He probably was acting lie he was walking down the West side of the bridge only to quickly switch the East side and pull a gun/knife. At that point, he was right on them and they were probably stunned and only thing they thought to do was comply.

When I was 13 or 14 I snuck out one night, met my friends, we met some boys, everybody smoked a few cigarettes...the boys started trying to tear down a street sign. Two o'clock in the morning, they're making all kinds of noise. We were all there, in the middle of the street, not a care in the world, and out of the fog we hear STOP OR I'LL SHOOT! I can remember the fear, and being frozen. Stock still like a deer in the headlights, and not a thought in my head. All 7 of us. Spotlight in each face; he knows us all. It's Mr. Beck, who lives across the street from my best friend, who stands beside me. He says her name, then mine, and before he gets to the next name we suddenly realize, he can't shoot us all, he's old and slow and we're young and fast, and...all of us stood right there. Frozen.

It all worked out, Mr. Beck wouldn't really have shot us. In fact, I never saw a gun. He made us sit in his basement until the sun came up, so he could see our backsides walking home, first the girls and then the boys, with our tails between our legs.

(I'm sorry, Mr. Beck.)
All of that to say, yes. They would freeze. IME

 

[Deleted member 102539]

And too, we don't know if BG had any idea he was being filmed. Maybe he did, maybe not.

Maybe, he over a long period of time was used to being filmed occasionally, and he knew from the start, if he would be recognized probably that day or not at all (think of disguise in some variable form). So he didn't think twice about a picture or even a video, taken by "strangers"/these girls. IMO

 

[minazoe]

When I was 13 or 14 I snuck out one night, met my friends, we met some boys, everybody smoked a few cigarettes...the boys started trying to tear down a street sign. Two o'clock in the morning, they're making all kinds of noise. We were all there, in the middle of the street, not a care in the world, and out of the fog we hear STOP OR I'LL SHOOT! I can remember the fear, and being frozen. Stock still like a deer in the headlights, and not a thought in my head. All 7 of us. Spotlight in each face; he knows us all. It's Mr. Beck, who lives across the street from my best friend, who stands beside me. He says her name, then mine, and before he gets to the next name we suddenly realize, he can't shoot us all, he's old and slow and we're young and fast, and...all of us stood right there. Frozen.

It all worked out, Mr. Beck wouldn't really have shot us. In fact, I never saw a gun. He made us sit in his basement until the sun came up, so he could see our backsides walking home, first the girls and then the boys, with our tails between our legs.

(I'm sorry, Mr. Beck.)
All of that to say, yes. They would freeze. IME

um that was kidnapping. mOO

 

[I wonder]

Just an idea, because I never saw it discussed before.

I can't imagine the CS, but I assume that some staging is possible. This made me wonder because I thought that no one would have the time to kill and stage, within this short time span. That either killings happened elsewhere and the bodies were moved, or someone was helping.

But now I wonder, what if the place was staged before the murders? Many say that the place is not well seen from the bridge, and it could even be staged the day before. Or in the morning, since some car was parked since 12 noon. Maybe the victims were random, but not the place?

Depending on what was there, he could have even lured the girls down, to look at it.

That reverses things, time-wise. The first thing - the bodies - become the last one to be added.

I thought he had to return back at night to do the staging, but if it was pre-arranged, then he really could leave and be gone immediately after murders.

Politely snipped.

I've mentioned this before because I am convinced this was the case. It works timing wise, but also for the items left at the scene. LE said that they believe the killer indicated a local because if they didn't know the trail well they wouldn't know 'specifically where certain things were.'

I take this to mean perhaps the route he took, where he chose to go with Abby and Libby and I also believe the 'certain things' may include items left at the scene. Lots of items were left at the scene. I think he pre-prepared the scene, it was on private land so unlikely to be stumbled across by other people. I don't believe he prepared a scene specifically for Abby and Libby, but he did intend to kill and I think it's likely he also intended to rape, had his victim been older.

This was in the daytime and although a rural area, he was seen by several people. It's incredibly risky to hang around after a murder, let alone a double murder and in broad daylight it would be madness. So he prepared ahead of time and left asap.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

Come on, now...it's for the same reason Molly Bish didn't run away, or Holly Piirainen, or Etan Patz, Amber Hagerman, Jaycee Dugard, the Lyon sisters, Amy Mihalejevic, April Tinsley, Jacob Wetterling, Lyric Cook and Lizzy Collins, the list of child victims abducted from public spaces and murdered goes on and on and on.

The reason these victims didn't "just run away" is that they did not know they were in grave danger until the moment was happening. Most offenders who abduct children aim for some type of either quiet coercion (a ruse to get close enough to take control) or a so-called "blitz attack" that the victim doesn't see coming.

In Libby and Abby's case, they thought a weirdo was approaching, not a killer. Libby had the apparent foresight to video a man whose presence seemed odd to them, but let's not let that fact cause us to forget that they were innocent, small town kids who had likely never been confronted with someone whose intention was to harm them in this way. Violent offenders are typically great readers of human behavior and count on the fact that most people (including children) will not run away or try to fight until it's too late. IMO.

I agree with you Yemelyan a million percent. Once I was almost mugged by a gang in Phoenix, they ran towards me and raised baseball bats, I assume for my expensive looking purse, and I literally froze for a second. All I could think with thoughts zooming through my brain for a split second before I broke into a run, was what the hell is this, are they all late for little League? Then I realized , and ran. Crime and violence is very bizarre for the uninitiated. The first time my husband beat me I thanked him, I thought he was helping me up off the floor. ( he had slammed me into the floor and lifted me to do it again.) Point being, I’m sure the sweet girls froze, and then facing a gun, and trying to help each other, (not break loose and leave their best friend,) complied.

 

[I wonder]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

The deer thing has always bothered me for other reasons. I just dont know of any phone in 2017 that had any sort of zoom that would identify movement in the woods better than one's own eyes. Moreover, I don't get why one would stop to look at deer, through a phone screen, while looking for 2 missing girls, and after a shoe has been discovered.
Just seems strange to me.

Now I'm bothered in a whole different way. Shivers.

My interpretation was that they saw a movement and as the movement was a distance away they used their phone to look closer. I don't know how controlled the search was, but I would expect it to be thorough. This means searching each area methodically. If they started on one area then went out of the search area they could miss vital information. So it makes sense to have a better look at a movement, in case it was one of the girls, but without messing up the search.

 

[Snoop Sister]

this is all we have

Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family | wthr.com

If the girls spoke about a MAN behind them, that is significant to me. If it were a younger guy, they would not have said “man”. IMO. Moreover, the BG’s voice sounds older and a smoker to me.

Regarding the expression “guys”, I use it frequently. Example ‘hey guys’.
Also, I would think a younger guy would immediately try to take the phone from Libby or ask for it. Jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

If the girls spoke about a MAN behind them, that is significant to me. If it were a younger guy, they would not have said “man”. IMO. Moreover, the BG’s voice sounds older and a smoker to me.

Regarding the expression “guys”, I use it frequently. Example ‘hey guys’.
Also, I would think a younger guy would immediately try to take the phone from Libby or ask for it. Jmo

We don’t know if the actual words spoken were specifically a “man” or if LE broadly summarized the conversation as in “stuff girls talk about”.

Younger or older, either way, I hope an arrest is looming.

 

[rosesfromangels]

If the girls spoke about a MAN behind them, that is significant to me. If it were a younger guy, they would not have said “man”. IMO. Moreover, the BG’s voice sounds older and a smoker to me.

Regarding the expression “guys”, I use it frequently. Example ‘hey guys’.
Also, I would think a younger guy would immediately try to take the phone from Libby or ask for it. Jmo

I agree. If he were younger, IWT they would say "guy" vs. "man". Good point.
Lord have mercy. Here we go again about the use of the word guy(s).

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[jim lucier]

Wowzers! Y'all speculate darn near as much as me

As far as I know, we have no idea if the 'guys' and 'down the hill' comments are said in close time/proximity to each other, or if they are said at completely different times.

I also don't think we know if BG crossed the entire bridge, or if he passed the girls and then turned around, or even if he emerged from a hiding place underneath after they passed by.

And too, we don't know if BG had any idea he was being filmed. Maybe he did, maybe not.

Though it's most vehemently defended by some that there is/was only one killer involved in this, at this juncture, we still don't know if there was one perp, two, or even more.

As to specifics relative to the CS itself, what do we actually know as fact? Very little.

I'm sticking with my theory that BG knew the area, knew it real well. He either expected those girls that day, (had motive) or he was just there waiting, (serial killer) as he had numerous times before, for all things to line up in his favor.

But I DO think he was there, waiting. I think this low life scum parked in that cemetery, walked down the hill, ensuring the CS was clear. I think he went from there to either a tree stand, or a vantage point where he could see the trail, and maybe even the bridge, and any people walking on them.

After the murders, I think he simply walked up that hill to the cemetery, got in his car, and drove away.

I'll go out on a limb here, and I don't ALWAYS believe this, but as of today, I don't think any witnesses saw him that day.

MOO

Does anyone know of any similar priors or subsequent crimes? It doesn't sound like the perp's first time to the Rodeo, and it doesn't sound like a crime of passion. It smells like a serial killer

 

[sunshineray]

If I were at the April 2019 press conference listening to the Superintendent and looking at a copy of the 2nd sketch I would have left thinking this does not seem like it is the killer. I think if you look at it psychologically you have to at least wonder why Liberty German took the phone video? I know all the explanations everyone has, but according to what I have read about her she had been to the Monon High Bridge trail before. Obviously she must have seen other people there before. It is ironic that none of us can make out the face in the video, yet she videotaped this person on the bridge.

I think this person will have some strange type of handicap or facial features seeing as how the first thing we usually see on a person is their face. I may be overanalyzing why Liberty German took the video, but whatever the reason she felt some sort of apprehension. Hopefully someday the phone video ends up solving the case.

I personally believe BG was talking to himself (possibly singing). I think they noticed him because of some out of the normal thing and when they noticed him crossing over they viewed it as being stuck there until he crossed. I think they were uncomfortable with him approaching but their youth kept them from thinking the situation had terrible possibilities and they could flee through private property and should not let him get close. AJMO