Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

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When I hang up my jeans on a pant specific hanger after washing them, there is a certain way to hang them that will bring about a crease. I have learned not to hang them that way as I don’t like creases.

Anyway, I am not sure there is a crease on BG’s jeans.

I do see the crease, and sometimes wish I had kept the pant stretchers that my Grandmother used to hand Granddaddy's khakis on the line:

https://www.lehmans.com/product/pants-stretcher-two-pairs/

6_5_18_pants_stretcher_large-min.jpg

Might order a pair for laundry & auld lang syne.

I still hang laundry, not sure how many people do.

jmho ymmv lrr
 
Two double homicides involving young girls in the woods 350 miles apart is unusual. Can’t rule out a relationship. The creased pants issue might indicate a uniform of some kind. Uniforms are often dry cleaned and pressed. Blue trousers are favored in auto repair shops and security. Just a thought. MOO
 
I also think these cases could possibly be related, however, there is one major difference between them: the girls in Iowa were transported to a different location. There's quite a bit more involved with that.

It certainly doesn't rule anything out, but it does add questions, imo.

In the Iowa case of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook, I can understand why they were transported somewhere else. The location of the abduction, Meyers Lake, is a park in town located close to the interstate. From videos I have seen of the location, the park gets quite a few people that use it during the summer. I am going on what I have seen in news reports, but it looks like your typical large public park with houses that surround it. The lake sits inside the park. It is not the "woods" type atmosphere of the Monon High Bridge trail in Delphi, IN. To try and commit the crime in the same location at Meyers Park, especially a sexually motivated crime, would probably be a little bit difficult. In my opinion, in that case, it is more amazing that they were able to be abducted without any witnesses.

In the Delphi case, the location of the abduction and crime scene are relatively isolated from anyone. There is no need to move the victims because the place itself provides enough isolation to commit the crime.

And with public places you always have to remember that anyone can access them. So looking at a location and how it relates to a given crime is important, but I think what is most important is looking at the big picture, the entire locational movement. I think that gives a better perspective about the locational choices made within a particular case.
 
I also think these cases could possibly be related, however, there is one major difference between them: the girls in Iowa were transported to a different location. There's quite a bit more involved with that.

It certainly doesn't rule anything out, but it does add questions, imo.

They were younger—maybe they were easier to control, so he was able to get them into his vehicle. Maybe something went wrong with his plan for Abby and Libby. Total speculation, of course.
 
the thing is there is a disorganized crime scene with a lot of clothing strewn, the water, the whole thing seems as though he could have been trying to get them to his vehicle, where he has more control. there could have been a change of plan and hence the murders happen
differently.

whereas..

the Evansdale girls were taken in a vehicle and their remains left near a bridge. in the seven bridges area.

we don't know where the Evansdale girls were murdered , if they were murdered outside in that area we will never know.

as I have said before , even with the dates ...there is so much symmetry it's hard to ignore.

I would like to see Joe Kenda on this because I think he would agree.

how many men are out there targeting pairs of girls pre-teen-early teen, and murdering them and then leaving them by bridges?

this is a specific kind of murder. it's pedophillac, sadistic, brazen in the daylight, kidnapping and murder.

so for me they are the same rare killer, so they say there are signatures which we have learned here means "unnecessary things done, not essential to the crime itself".

so , swinging back..were those signatures meant to pervert the crime scene and create a wild
goose chase ? he would not be the first sk to play games.

mOO
 
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The only way this case is ever solved, just my opinion:

1) Killer confesses.....will never happen
2) Family or friends call him in....20% chance of happening
3) Killer strikes again....25% chance
4) DNA match....5% chance
5) Tough persistent police work....50% chance
6) Independent investigators....45% chance
7) Release of more information results in tip....80%
 
In the Iowa case of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook, I can understand why they were transported somewhere else. The location of the abduction, Meyers Lake, is a park in town located close to the interstate. From videos I have seen of the location, the park gets quite a few people that use it during the summer. I am going on what I have seen in news reports, but it looks like your typical large public park with houses that surround it. The lake sits inside the park. It is not the "woods" type atmosphere of the Monon High Bridge trail in Delphi, IN. To try and commit the crime in the same location at Meyers Park, especially a sexually motivated crime, would probably be a little bit difficult. In my opinion, in that case, it is more amazing that they were able to be abducted without any witnesses.

In the Delphi case, the location of the abduction and crime scene are relatively isolated from anyone. There is no need to move the victims because the place itself provides enough isolation to commit the crime.

And with public places you always have to remember that anyone can access them. So looking at a location and how it relates to a given crime is important, but I think what is most important is looking at the big picture, the entire locational movement. I think that gives a better perspective about the locational choices made within a particular case.
This is also a good time to remember that the FBI categorizes serials such that the signature of the killer is what emotionally drives them and compels them to kill, and this will never change; the MO is merely the details surrounding how the crime was committed logistically, and this CAN change. Identifying which elements are signature and which elements are MO is part of the investigation. But the scene of the crime will usually confirm which is which.

A good example is Richard Ramirez was driven to attack and kill all kinds of different people, little children on up to elderly people. He raped, he murdered, and he used all kinds of weapons, and was active in two different cities. His signature had nothing to do with a specific weapon or a specific victim type. That meant his MO was all over the place and it's merely lucky his shoe prints helped link all his crimes, along with a friend finally giving a name that could be linked to a fingerprint because he was already in the system for petty crime.

If the killer behind the LG/AW case has a signature associated with choosing young girls—and I'll add, Lyric Cook (Evansdale case) and LG look very similar, and AW and Elizabeth Collins (Evansdale case) look rather similar—plus whatever other details that LE have kept quiet about the crime, then that will drive the killer's actions. But the logistical details—like where the crime is committed or how they are disposed of—may not be consequential and therefore can change.

So if we were to hypothesize that LG/AW are connected to LC/EC by the same killer, then we could hypothesize that the killer's signature is pairs of young girls as victims, especially friends/relatives, and that they must look a certain way. Given the difference between LG/AW crime scene and LC/EC scene, we can hypothesize that the killer picks out girls when they're alone and prefers seclusion to commit his crimes. But with LG/AW and the number of pedestrians that day, he's not beyond taking risks to commit his crime given that day hikers were around the area. In the LC/EC case, they were taken to a secluded location. If it's the same person, the LG/AW case means there could have been an element of desperation. Especially if he's a killer whose signature absolutely requires two girls who look a certain way/are a certain age—that's hard to pick out. Unless you devote a lot of time toward watching.

The choice of an isolated hiking trail to find two girls who match his type suggests, IMO, that he had already picked them out, maybe he scouted their home, or somehow knew they were going there that day. I would not expect a killer with a signature that requires a specific pair of girls to sit around on rural hiking trails hoping they'll just happen by. So it makes me think the killer, if he's connected to LC/EC, is local to Delphi to know about the trail and to know school was out that day, and he travels farther away to commit crimes elsewhere. The fact that both cases were attacks during the day suggests quite a bit about this person's life schedule. They either work nights or have a job where they sometimes have daytime off. I still think school teacher, principal, counselor, or athletic coach is high on the list; I think they spend time around young people regularly. But these are my personal suspicions. Could be totally wrong. But the main thing we know is this person fits into his community without anyone the wiser. This is another BTK in that regard.
 
The only way this case is ever solved, just my opinion:

1) Killer confesses.....will never happen
2) Family or friends call him in....20% chance of happening
3) Killer strikes again....25% chance
4) DNA match....5% chance
5) Tough persistent police work....50% chance
6) Independent investigators....45% chance
7) Release of more information results in tip....80%
I agree with all but #3 and #7. Unfortunately, I believe the killer strikes again is the highest probability of a resolution. But I would prefer your scenario of #7.
 
Does anyone know of any similar priors or subsequent crimes? It doesn't sound like the perp's first time to the Rodeo, and it doesn't sound like a crime of passion. It smells like a serial killer
Here is what the lead investigator, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman, said about it on 14 August 2017 in an interview (I posted this just a few days ago):

A[Alexis McAdams]: [9.21] And personality traits in a person like this, and that's I think what people have thought about before and maybe him, if there was just one person, is this the guy that was able to get both of these little girls in the woods and do these, you know, brutally murder them, do you think he possibly has done this before?

H[Holeman]: Uh, he could be, you know, that's, again, just kind of our theory or speculation, we have no evidence that he's done it again. But we do keep that in mind. We do check with other states to see if they have anything close; and obviously the case in Iowa is the closest; but they don't even know the cause of death in that one because they didn't find the victims until later. So, it's hard to compare. But it is similar, but, so, we have taken that into consideration as well, and we have investigated that. We've been in contact with Iowa and they have been in contact with us, and we've discussed that, but nothing else seems to be popping up around the nation that is similar to this. But that doesn't mean he is gonna kill everybody the same way every time, so (shrugs), we don't know.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65
 
Yes, I listened to some interviews Anna (Abby's Mom) gave, and learned some new things. Folks can search MSM, and there are some good interviews with her on YT as well. Her descriptions took me right to that bridge, and I am deeply effected by this case once again. I find I have to take breaks from following it.
I'm not so sure that this Perp wasn't in LE's crosshairs as he was investigated from another/other crimes at one point and is now deceased. I have faith in the agencies supporting this case, and if they crossed him off the list they must be right. But yet, I still wonder.

Amateur opinion and speculation
If BG possibly crossed hairs with LE at some point about another crime, and has since died, would LE make a statement about their suspicions about him? Or no?
 
This is also a good time to remember that the FBI categorizes serials such that the signature of the killer is what emotionally drives them and compels them to kill, and this will never change; the MO is merely the details surrounding how the crime was committed logistically, and this CAN change. Identifying which elements are signature and which elements are MO is part of the investigation. But the scene of the crime will usually confirm which is which.

A good example is Richard Ramirez was driven to attack and kill all kinds of different people, little children on up to elderly people. He raped, he murdered, and he used all kinds of weapons, and was active in two different cities. His signature had nothing to do with a specific weapon or a specific victim type. That meant his MO was all over the place and it's merely lucky his shoe prints helped link all his crimes, along with a friend finally giving a name that could be linked to a fingerprint because he was already in the system for petty crime.

If the killer behind the LG/AW case has a signature associated with choosing young girls—and I'll add, Lyric Cook (Evansdale case) and LG look very similar, and AW and Elizabeth Collins (Evansdale case) look rather similar—plus whatever other details that LE have kept quiet about the crime, then that will drive the killer's actions. But the logistical details—like where the crime is committed or how they are disposed of—may not be consequential and therefore can change.

So if we were to hypothesize that LG/AW are connected to LC/EC by the same killer, then we could hypothesize that the killer's signature is pairs of young girls as victims, especially friends/relatives, and that they must look a certain way. Given the difference between LG/AW crime scene and LC/EC scene, we can hypothesize that the killer picks out girls when they're alone and prefers seclusion to commit his crimes. But with LG/AW and the number of pedestrians that day, he's not beyond taking risks to commit his crime given that day hikers were around the area. In the LC/EC case, they were taken to a secluded location. If it's the same person, the LG/AW case means there could have been an element of desperation. Especially if he's a killer whose signature absolutely requires two girls who look a certain way/are a certain age—that's hard to pick out. Unless you devote a lot of time toward watching.

The choice of an isolated hiking trail to find two girls who match his type suggests, IMO, that he had already picked them out, maybe he scouted their home, or somehow knew they were going there that day. I would not expect a killer with a signature that requires a specific pair of girls to sit around on rural hiking trails hoping they'll just happen by. So it makes me think the killer, if he's connected to LC/EC, is local to Delphi to know about the trail and to know school was out that day, and he travels farther away to commit crimes elsewhere. The fact that both cases were attacks during the day suggests quite a bit about this person's life schedule. They either work nights or have a job where they sometimes have daytime off. I still think school teacher, principal, counselor, or athletic coach is high on the list; I think they spend time around young people regularly. But these are my personal suspicions. Could be totally wrong. But the main thing we know is this person fits into his community without anyone the wiser. This is another BTK in that regard.

A few minor points of disagreement with this....first of all, the signature aspect that represents the offender's underlying psychological desire/personal fantasy does remain a constant, HOWEVER the specific rituals that he uses to express the underlying need or desire absolutely can change, evolving or even disappearing for external reasons. See Douglas and Munn (Violent Crime Scene Analysis, 1992):

Signature aspects may evolve, as in the case of a lust murderer who performs greater postmortem mutilation as he progresses from crime to crime. Elements of the original ritual may become more fully developed. In addition, the signature does not always show up at every crime scene because of unexpected contingencies, such as interruptions or an unexpected victim response.

I would also disagree that how the victims' bodies are disposed may be inconsequential. I'd say that the site and method of disposal is highly significant the vast majority of the time. LE are taught that the offender's choice of a particular disposal pathway/site reflects the offender's familiarity with the area and even the relationship between offender and victim. The FBI calls the manner of body disposal "one of the central factors to case resolution." (Morton, at all, Serial Murder Pathways for Investigations).

I'm going to go against the current here and say that I don't think the Delphi or the Evansdale offender were looking for two victims specifically. I think the victim selection was opportunistic. It's just my opinion as I don't see how an offender could be sure, at either location, that he could obtain two victims on that particular day. I think if long-term stalking had occurred, leading to the offender knowing either pair's schedules, LE would have been able to discover this by now. But this is just an opinion.
 
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the thing is there is a disorganized crime scene with a lot of clothing strewn, the water, the whole thing seems as though he could have been trying to get them to his vehicle, where he has more control. there could have been a change of plan and hence the murders happen
differently.

whereas..

the Evansdale girls were taken in a vehicle and their remains left near a bridge. in the seven bridges area.

we don't know where the Evansdale girls were murdered , if they were murdered outside in that area we will never know.

as I have said before , even with the dates ...there is so much symmetry it's hard to ignore.

I would like to see Joe Kenda on this because I think he would agree.

how many men are out there targeting pairs of girls pre-teen-early teen, and murdering them and then leaving them by bridges?

this is a specific kind of murder. it's pedophillac, sadistic, brazen in the daylight, kidnapping and murder.

so for me they are the same rare killer, so they say there are signatures which we have learned here means "unnecessary things done, not essential to the crime itself".

so , swinging back..were those signatures meant to pervert the crime scene and create a wild
goose chase ? he would not be the first sk to play games.

mOO

For me, I don't know enough details about the crime scene to say whether it had aspects that could be considered disorganized (in any case, the dichotomy between "organized" and "disorganized" killers has been pretty much disregarded these days as more and more studies have shown that most offenders have some elements of both). The clothing in the water I could see as the work of an "organized" person who is bent on destroying evidence, however, not necessarily the work of a "disorganized" offender who is just scattering things out of rage, so to speak.

The Evansdale victims were found in a tall grass/low shrub bottomland near the bend of the river that runs through the park, but there was no bridge nearby. They were also very close to the access road that runs through the park. The park itself was remote and not well known but the physical features of the actual site where they were found were not that similar to Delphi, just IMO.
 
If BG possibly crossed hairs with LE at some point about another crime, and has since died, would LE make a statement about their suspicions about him? Or no?

That’s a good question, especially since LE has been reluctant to label people as POIs or to even say when people have been cleared.
Just guessing, but I would think that LE would never make a statement based on suspicions, but only it they were 100% sure the deceased was the killer.
 
A few minor points of disagreement with this....first of all, the signature aspect that represents the offender's underlying psychological desire/personal fantasy does remain a constant, HOWEVER the specific rituals that he uses to express the underlying need or desire absolutely can change, evolving or even disappearing for external reasons. See Douglas and Munn (Violent Crime Scene Analysis, 1992):

Signature aspects may evolve, as in the case of a lust murderer who performs greater postmortem mutilation as he progresses from crime to crime. Elements of the original ritual may become more fully developed. In addition, the signature does not always show up at every crime scene because of unexpected contingencies, such as interruptions or an unexpected victim response.

I would also disagree that how the victims' bodies are disposed may be inconsequential. I'd say that the site and method of disposal is highly significant the vast majority of the time. LE are taught that the offender's choice of a particular disposal pathway/site reflects the offender's familiarity with the area and even the relationship between offender and victim. The FBI calls the manner of body disposal "one of the central factors to case resolution." (Morton, at all, Serial Murder Pathways for Investigations).

I'm going to go against the current here and say that I don't think the Delphi or the Evansdale offender were looking for two victims specifically. I think the victim selection was opportunistic. It's just my opinion as I don't see how an offender could be sure, at either location, that he could obtain two victims on that particular day. I think if long-term stalking had occurred, leading to the offender knowing either pair's schedules, LE would have been able to discover this by now. But this is just an opinion.
About signatures. I don't know what they are, but I wonder if is something related to OCD.

(In a different form, but OCD has many masks. What is important is that the area of the brain that would "light up" when the person does it (signature) is the same as would light up on PET in OCD/Tourrette's behavior.)

So let us say, tbe perp puts on a ring on the second R finger of the victim. So every victim would have the same. But what if the second R finger is missing? Would he use another finger (potentially generating new OCD), or skip this person as the victim altogether, or have to kill someone else, to finish his work? What do people do, if the signature can't be left?

Also, with OCD, the rituals change with time, so I assume, the signatures might change, too?

I don't know about Ted Bundy, but I wonder if long hair parted in the middle of his victims was almost like a signature. We always speak about his "preferential sexual type", but I swear, all his victims have it. It is almost like the hair triggered his OCD.
 
Two double homicides involving young girls in the woods 350 miles apart is unusual. Can’t rule out a relationship. The creased pants issue might indicate a uniform of some kind. Uniforms are often dry cleaned and pressed. Blue trousers are favored in auto repair shops and security. Just a thought. MOO
 
Two double homicides involving young girls in the woods 350 miles apart is unusual. Can’t rule out a relationship. MOO

Respectfully snipped....

We can't rule out a linkage to Delphi based on what is known by the public at this point, but an interesting thing you might not know is that there were two other sex offenders with patterns of abducting pairs of girls near
Evansdale, Iowa in the same time frame as the murders of Lyric and Lizzy. One was Michael Klunder (he was ruled out in the Evansdale murders case and had ready killed himself by the time Delphi happened), and the other was Jeff Altmayer (in 2014 - which rules him out for Delphi - he was arrested for 19 incidents of luring juveniles and sexually assaulting several of them; he has not been ruled out in the Evansdale case).

So luring pairs of girls is unusual but maybe not as totally rare as we think...
 
About signatures. I don't know what they are, but I wonder if is something related to OCD.

(In a different form, but OCD has many masks. What is important is that the area of the brain that would "light up" when the person does it (signature) is the same as would light up on PET in OCD/Tourrette's behavior.)

So let us say, tbe perp puts on a ring on the second R finger of the victim. So every victim would have the same. But what if the second R finger is missing? Would he use another finger (potentially generating new OCD), or skip this person as the victim altogether, or have to kill someone else, to finish his work? What do people do, if the signature can't be left?

Also, with OCD, the rituals change with time, so I assume, the signatures might change, too?

I don't know about Ted Bundy, but I wonder if long hair parted in the middle of his victims was almost like a signature. We always speak about his "preferential sexual type", but I swear, all his victims have it. It is almost like the hair triggered his OCD.

I respect, as always, that this is all speculation since we have no real information to work with.
However, again, I will say that there is absolutely no indication that BG has OCD.
And now I will go into the corner and say no more about it...
 
I respect, as always, that this is all speculation since we have no real information to work with.
However, again, I will say that there is absolutely no indication that BG has OCD.
And now I will go into the corner and say no more about it...

It was the question about signatures. Can they be considered the form of OCD, since they are so repetitive?
 
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