Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[Justice101]

How can you nail him to the wall if you obtain all of your evidence illegally? I would think LE want not just to know who he is, but actually to convict him and hold him responsible for his actions.

There is a legal mechanism in our legal system called "the exclusionary rule," sometimes you may hear people call it "fruit of the poisonous tree." It's rooted in the bill of rights of our constitution. In a nutshell, it's illegal for LE to use evidence obtained illegally to convict a person and it's established law, it's not going away. LE have to find legal ways to prove someone's involvement in a crime. IMO

I agree. The temptation to slide down that slippery slope is great. We all want this solved but not at the expense of weakening arguably one of the the fairest justice systems in the world.

 

[sunshineray]

The early reports are interesting. This article within 2 weeks is interesting. It wasn't just the FBI, ISP, Delphi PD and county sheriff department involved but a total of almost 2 dozen agencies. And they received 7800 tips within 2 weeks. There are many cases on here that don't receive 1/10th that many after 2 years. One of the most publicized cases currently ongoing, Suzanne Morphew, with over 50 threads here on WS since May, had 600 tips in the first 2 months per the Chaffee County SD.
Swelling Delphi investigation prompts new HQ

From your link and BBM...
"A $50,000 reward also has brought in a flood of information, prompting the FBI on Thursday to take control of a tip line established Feb. 16 to collect potential leads.

"It's going as far as nationwide," Leazenby said, noting law enforcement has received many tips from outside the state.

As a result, authorities said this past week they are expanding their investigation outside the community."

FBI took control of the tip line. I'm just thinking outloud, wondering whether that meant local people manning those tip lines were left in place/absorbed or was tip line totally handed over to "out-of-towners" to man? Maybe early on that effected how locals did or didn't report things?

It didn't take authorities long to expand the search nationwide. Is that because most of the tips coming in weren't from the area? Maybe the investigation going nationwide so quickly was the mistake?

 

[Justice101]

Stepping back, this whole case just baffles me. How you can have the killer on video, plus his voice, plus the FBI, plus thousands of tip of which a few are probably useful... and still NOT to have identified the killer.

I've got to think that they know who the killer but they do not have anywhere near enough evidence to arrest them.. let alone convict them.

 

[heartgoesout]

Not Stattlich1, but I believe the reference is to Ives' statement.



Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

ETA: Link to earlier conversation.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

Thanks Jax, I do remember this now. Admittedly I am forgetting things as it's going on four years.

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

Physical evidence refers to any item that comes from a nonliving origin, while biological evidence always originates from a living being. The most important kinds of physical evidence are fingerprints, tire marks, footprints, fibers , paint, and building materials .

Robert Ives was the Prosecuting Attorney (DA). He stepped down. Nicholas McLeland was voted in by precinct leaders. Mayor Shane Evans stepped down to work as chief deputy prosecutor under McLeland.
The PA/DA decides if there is enough evidence for an arrest. So he presumingly has access to all the evidence and ins and outs of the case. Let's not forget Superior Court Judge Kurtis Fouts stepped down after his scandal. Too many connections for my taste.

So going back to Ive's quote above, I'm keeping in mind that any interviews with the PA/DA is jaded with them subconsciously defending why they haven't brought charges.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I believe that's a resounding "Yes" to LE being misled early on. If you take ISP Carter words, "Directly to the killer....For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have....We know this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day, you will." at face value....
1. He was addressing the killer.
2. He told the killer, LE knew that for more than two years they thought what he, the killer, was comfortable with them thinking.
3. LE then announced to the killer they were seeking to change their strategy to catch him and know this is going to upset the killer's need to know what LE is thinking.

This is AJMO, I hear in those words that yes indeed LE was misled by the killer and it was an ongoing sort of thing, not just a very early on, one time instance of trickery.

This part of the press conference was kinda confusing to me. It does sound like LE is saying the killer mislead them.
Then I think, if LE found out they were mislead, then they obviously know what it was they were mislead about, and they know who supplied that misleading information so...they know who the killer is. But no one is in jail. How can that be? Making sure “I”s are dotted and “t”’s are crossed? We’ve all been saying that since the beginning.
I now interpret those statements at the press conference as meaning LE feels the killer has been following the case, and was watching happily as he saw LE head off in the wrong direction for two years. It was a warning to the killer that things were changing, and a further attempt to rattle his cage.
Almost two years now of the “new direction” and I think almost all of us feel the case is going nowhere.

 

[Yemelyan]

Okay, perhaps it was written incorrectly. "Supt. Carter also said police are searching for anyone with information on a vehicle that was abandoned at CPS DCS Welfare on east County Road 300 between noon and 5 p.m. on February 13, 2017." Delphi, Indiana murders: Police release new video, sketch and audio of suspect in killings of Abigail Williams, Liberty German

Yes, what actually happened was, Carter misspoke in the press conference and called the vehicle abandoned when he was supposed to say the building was. He also originally gave the wrong date. The ISP issued a correction, they called it a clarification, the following day. So what you found there was a news article written prior to the clarification.

 

[Skully]

Which came first, the video or still photo of BG or the composite (first released) of the older looking, scruffy guy? I am just wondering if the video influenced the composite. I think, not sure that people were questioned about any suspicious person they may have seen that day. I would hope that was early on, like maybe days into the investigation. We know that the second sketch was actually one of the first ones, but never released. But 2 years later they think this is more accurate. If you had to give a description of a person you may have seen like 3 days ago, just a guy nothing unusual would you be able to do that, and do you trust your memory. I think the younger guy is probably the more correct version. I think they missed it.

 

[Yemelyan]

From your link and BBM...
"A $50,000 reward also has brought in a flood of information, prompting the FBI on Thursday to take control of a tip line established Feb. 16 to collect potential leads.

"It's going as far as nationwide," Leazenby said, noting law enforcement has received many tips from outside the state.

As a result, authorities said this past week they are expanding their investigation outside the community."

FBI took control of the tip line. I'm just thinking outloud, wondering whether that meant local people manning those tip lines were left in place/absorbed or was tip line totally handed over to "out-of-towners" to man? Maybe early on that effected how locals did or didn't report things?

It didn't take authorities long to expand the search nationwide. Is that because most of the tips coming in weren't from the area? Maybe the investigation going nationwide so quickly was the mistake?

The FBI has a proprietary computer system that manages large numbers of tips, it's called Pyramid. From what I understand it cross references them so that you can easily pull up all of the tips out of 40,000 that mentioned, say, a suspicious person wearing a hat, for instance. But there's more to it than that, at least two FBI analysts put their eyes on the tips to vet them....here's a link to a video that explains....Inside the FBI's Internet Tip Line — FBI

I think it didn't take very long before Delphi investigators realized this was a powerful tool that they needed to manage the sheer number of tips coming in. Here's an article where Holeman talks about it: Delphi investigators are comparing tips with cases across the country to find Libby & Abby's killer

 

[minazoe]

I agree. The temptation to slide down that slippery slope is great. We all want this solved but not at the expense of weakening arguably one of the the fairest justice systems in the world.

I get a little carried away...but I think along the way you would find what you needed. also as a detective it would help me in my personal belief the person was guilty..say I have his car everywhere I need to see it to make my case,
his phone pings in 3 key places at the exact times of a crime.

I know this from a cell tower dump that I cant use as evidence because no warrant. but at least I know I am on the right path and can then use every legal means I have to prosecute. no I don't mean to weaken the justice system, I mean personally what I would do to catch a killer of children might involve bending some rules.

detectives often end up with unusable evidence like recordings taken without consent
etc.

 

[Yemelyan]

I get a little carried away...but I think along the way you would find what you needed. also as a detective it would help me in my personal belief the person was guilty..say I have his car everywhere I need to see it to make my case,
his phone pings in 3 key places at the exact times of a crime.

I know this from a cell tower dump that I cant use as evidence because no warrant. but at least I know I am on the right path and can then use every legal means I have to prosecute. no I don't mean to weaken the justice system, I mean personally what I would do to catch a killer of children might involve bending some rules.

detectives often end up with unusable evidence like recordings taken without consent
etc.

Sounds like the scenario you are giving here is one where a warrant for a cell tower dump would be legal and granted. If you have a known suspect and can show probable cause - in your example, "I have his car everywhere" - then you'd be allowed to do a cell tower dump to look for a phone number associated with his known identity.

What you likely wouldn't be allowed to do (post 2018) is say, let me go back in time and look at all cell phones in the area of the Monon High Bridge trail system that lingered there longer than two hours, and the period I want to examine is January 13th -February 13th 2017. I don't know WHO I'm looking for, but if I see any patterns, I'll investigate the person that phone is associated with. That's currently illegal. And no provider is going to cooperate to give you this information from their systems without a warrant.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Which came first, the video or still photo of BG or the composite (first released) of the older looking, scruffy guy? I am just wondering if the video influenced the composite. I think, not sure that people were questioned about any suspicious person they may have seen that day. I would hope that was early on, like maybe days into the investigation. We know that the second sketch was actually one of the first ones, but never released. But 2 years later they think this is more accurate. If you had to give a description of a person you may have seen like 3 days ago, just a guy nothing unusual would you be able to do that, and do you trust your memory. I think the younger guy is probably the more correct version. I think they missed it.

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

If I did this correctly...a big if...and if you scroll down from the link above someone has transcribed an interview with Det Holeman six months after the murders and only a few weeks after the first sketch came out. Alexis McAdams did the interview. Among other things he gives a fairly detailed description of how they put together that sketch. It’s kinda interesting to read knowing now that LE will completely abandon that sketch about a year and a half later.

 

[Justice101]

I get a little carried away...but I think along the way you would find what you needed. also as a detective it would help me in my personal belief the person was guilty..say I have his car everywhere I need to see it to make my case,
his phone pings in 3 key places at the exact times of a crime.

I know this from a cell tower dump that I cant use as evidence because no warrant. but at least I know I am on the right path and can then use every legal means I have to prosecute. no I don't mean to weaken the justice system, I mean personally what I would do to catch a killer of children might involve bending some rules.

detectives often end up with unusable evidence like recordings taken without consent
etc.

By the way, I'd bet you $$$ that the CIA hacks into cell towers OVERSEAS to get data dumps of cell phone towers to track would-be terrorists, etc.

Most everything they do over there in the effort of national security would probably violate every law we have here. LOL

 

[Paige Franklin]

He may be referring to DNA, a contaminated or partial profile which cannot identify any one person.

Is it possible they can't identify further than family with DNA? Maybe it's a family with a large presence in the area. This could be why they think he is familiar with the area and possibly well known.

Going back and forth on whether this theory could also have something to do with two sketches.

 

[Skully]

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

If I did this correctly...a big if...and if you scroll down from the link above someone has transcribed an interview with Det Holeman six months after the murders and only a few weeks after the first sketch came out. Alexis McAdams did the interview. Among other things he gives a fairly detailed description of how they put together that sketch. It’s kinda interesting to read knowing now that LE will completely abandon that sketch about a year and a half later.

thank you, you did perfect!

It's not clear, if they saw that video before they sat down, but it if it was on TV or MSM, it could have influenced the drawing.

PART 2:
A: [5.34] When the people come forward that mentioned, you know, because that sketch behind you is pretty detailed, like we said, and the guy that did it is obviously unbelievably talented because he maybe didn't have a bunch of information but it's unbelievable what they could come up with, right, and make it into this composite sketch that could end up helping crack the case. But, when did those people come forward that said that they saw him possibly near the trail?

H: Well, that's a good question. It's actually compiled, it's not just from one person, so we've had several people say that they saw the person that we identified through the video that we obtained off of Liberty's phone. And we put that out so once people saw that photo then they said "oh I saw that guy; I saw that guy." We have to determine 'is that the guy they saw' first of all, and if it is then let's work together. So, we were getting calls that night, and throughout the last couple months. Some people don't watch the news. Some people don't really follow what's going on . So some of them were sooner-than-later, um. But then we took our time with that. We took our time, we interviewed the composite drawing itself took probably 2/12 to 3 weeks, because we wanted to make sure ourselves that it was exactly right at the people had recalled that. So, um, we have been, I think, getting better tips. Obviously the first photo is pretty hard to see. It's pixelated pretty bad, and this is pretty detailed. We want to make sure that people know this might not look exactly like the person, but it's gonna have similar facial features. So, this is just what the person or persons that we've interviewed over the last several months believe this is what this guy looked like. There's four of us in this room right now. If somebody walked into this room for 30 seconds and left, we'd all have different drawings, but I think the facial features and the major identifiers we would all get right. So, that's what we're hoping, that this gives us a little more guidance, a little more not-as-vague. And it's helping. We are getting better tips. We're still getting some not-so-good tips, I would say. But we're getting a little better tips from this composite drawing.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks Jax, I do remember this now. Admittedly I am forgetting things as it's going on four years.

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

Physical evidence refers to any item that comes from a nonliving origin, while biological evidence always originates from a living being. The most important kinds of physical evidence are fingerprints, tire marks, footprints, fibers , paint, and building materials .

Robert Ives was the Prosecuting Attorney (DA). He stepped down. Nicholas McLeland was voted in by precinct leaders. Mayor Shane Evans stepped down to work as chief deputy prosecutor under McLeland.
The PA/DA decides if there is enough evidence for an arrest. So he presumingly has access to all the evidence and ins and outs of the case. Let's not forget Superior Court Judge Kurtis Fouts stepped down after his scandal. Too many connections for my taste.

So going back to Ive's quote above, I'm keeping in mind that any interviews with the PA/DA is jaded with them subconsciously defending why they haven't brought charges.

BBM

“Physical evidence is any tangible object that can connect an offender to a crime scene. Biological evidence, which contains DNA, is a type of physical evidence.”
DNA Evidence: Basics of Identifying, Gathering and Transporting

Even if LE did collect an array of tangible items, expecting it to lead to the killer, just something I’ve thought about. For one thing, it’s a misplaced notion to assume the crime scene area was remote and unknown as we know it was accessible within minutes via at least a couple of routes. There was also a sandbar close by in the creek, representing a crossing point especially in the summer. The path from the cemetery iirc had a “no trespassing” sign, indicating at some point in time locals used that route as an access point to the creek and far side of the bridge. Every river or creek near a town typically has a well known swimming hole where young people hang out and because of the sand bar as well I wonder if that was the spot. If so, it wouldn’t be unusual that discarded items were left near the creek over time behind especially if older kids tended to party there as well.

Without further collaborating evidence, it would be utterly impossible for LE to prove when any one person was at or near the crime scene due to its accessibility.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I get a little carried away...but I think along the way you would find what you needed. also as a detective it would help me in my personal belief the person was guilty..say I have his car everywhere I need to see it to make my case,
his phone pings in 3 key places at the exact times of a crime.

I know this from a cell tower dump that I cant use as evidence because no warrant. but at least I know I am on the right path and can then use every legal means I have to prosecute. no I don't mean to weaken the justice system, I mean personally what I would do to catch a killer of children might involve bending some rules.

detectives often end up with unusable evidence like recordings taken without consent
etc.

Is there a reason to assume the killer had his cellphone turned on during the time of the crime? I think this would fall into the fishing category.

Cellphone tracking has become so widely known, surely only the dummest and naive of criminals aren’t aware of it as well.

ETA - Much like we’ve learned Libby’s cellphone appeared to be “pinging around town” when it was actually stationary, so would every other person with a live cellphone pinging who lived and/or worked or stopped by at Delphi, literally thousands I’m sure.

 

[MistyWaters]

Is it possible they can't identify further than family with DNA? Maybe it's a family with a large presence in the area. This could be why they think he is familiar with the area and possibly well known.

Going back and forth on whether this theory could also have something to do with two sketches.

Perhaps. But I think this case went off the rails early on when it went “national” and instead of focus on possible suspects with an association to Delphi, LE was getting “look-alike” tips from all over the place about people who’d probably never once been to the State of Indiana.

The odds have always been the killer was associated to the Delphi area in some way. But I don’t think LE was able to collect a full DNA profile which is definitely known to identify only the killer. If they did, they’ve never said so and I can’t think of one reason why not.

 

[Yemelyan]

One thing about composite sketches....we have heard so many times people's recollection of faces are not perfect so we shouldn't think of the sketches in this case like photographs. I'd go so far as to say that "not perfect" should be replaced by a more clear phrase like "extremely fragile."

Many sketch artists in the US (including Trooper Bryant, who made the "young" sketch) work with a system where they ask witnesses to look at isolated features and choose eyebrows that match what they saw from this set of choices, and lips from this other set of choices. It's debatable whether the human brain actually stores facial information in this piecemeal way. So this is one reason that LE will tell you, this sketch is not a picture of the suspect. There may be a feature or two here that reminds you of someone whose face you know.

The other thing about composites is that the very act of working with LE to create a sketch likely alters the witness's physical memory of the actual face. Witnesses who helped LE create sketches usually have trouble later identifying the person from a photo lineup. It is an unfortunate consequence of how our brain chemistry works to create memory.

Source:
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe that's a resounding "Yes" to LE being misled early on. If you take ISP Carter words, "Directly to the killer....For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have....We know this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day, you will." at face value....
1. He was addressing the killer.
2. He told the killer, LE knew that for more than two years they thought what he, the killer, was comfortable with them thinking.
3. LE then announced to the killer they were seeking to change their strategy to catch him and know this is going to upset the killer's need to know what LE is thinking.

This is AJMO, I hear in those words that yes indeed LE was misled by the killer and it was an ongoing sort of thing, not just a very early on, one time instance of trickery.

If this case was misled early on, I’d guess it pertained to this below, a sort of NIMBY, a suggestion of a transient, a stranger just passing through. I can just imagine it led to everyone who regularly drove the highways to start wracking their brains “Did I see somebody, what day was that?”, then maybe even convincing themselves it probably was that particular Monday and sure, his clothing was the same as the guy in the photo which has already been released. It’s simply human nature for human memories to sometimes be influenced by suggestive details. At most, motorists likely would’ve passed by in their vehicle and barely caught a glimpse. But once LE began getting calls by numerous people who all thought they saw the suspect on the highway, it firmed up their theory and thus, the later release of the sketch of the ragged looking guy. As time passed it’s possible many of these witnesses began to become uncertain.

JMO

Feb 20, 2017
See somebody walking near Delphi? Call police
“If you saw a hitchhiker or somebody walking along roads in Delphi last week, the police would like to talk to you. You could help find who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

Police are asking the public to try and remember if you saw somebody Monday, Feb. 13 in the late afternoon or evening.

"We're asking people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or someone walking. We're asking people that live in Logansport all the way to Lafayette, if they saw somebody late that afternoon, that evening of Monday the 13th, if they saw somebody walking down the roadway that just did not look like they should be there, or they're just a hitchhiker, we would like to talk to that person," said Sgt. Kim Riley, Indiana State Police...”

 

[Skully]

thank you, you did perfect!

It's not clear, if they saw that video before they sat down, but it if it was on TV or MSM, it could have influenced the drawing.

PART 2:
A: [5.34] When the people come forward that mentioned, you know, because that sketch behind you is pretty detailed, like we said, and the guy that did it is obviously unbelievably talented because he maybe didn't have a bunch of information but it's unbelievable what they could come up with, right, and make it into this composite sketch that could end up helping crack the case. But, when did those people come forward that said that they saw him possibly near the trail?

H: Well, that's a good question. It's actually compiled, it's not just from one person, so we've had several people say that they saw the person that we identified through the video that we obtained off of Liberty's phone. And we put that out so once people saw that photo then they said "oh I saw that guy; I saw that guy." We have to determine 'is that the guy they saw' first of all, and if it is then let's work together. So, we were getting calls that night, and throughout the last couple months. Some people don't watch the news. Some people don't really follow what's going on . So some of them were sooner-than-later, um. But then we took our time with that. We took our time, we interviewed the composite drawing itself took probably 2/12 to 3 weeks, because we wanted to make sure ourselves that it was exactly right at the people had recalled that. So, um, we have been, I think, getting better tips. Obviously the first photo is pretty hard to see. It's pixelated pretty bad, and this is pretty detailed. We want to make sure that people know this might not look exactly like the person, but it's gonna have similar facial features. So, this is just what the person or persons that we've interviewed over the last several months believe this is what this guy looked like. There's four of us in this room right now. If somebody walked into this room for 30 seconds and left, we'd all have different drawings, but I think the facial features and the major identifiers we would all get right. So, that's what we're hoping, that this gives us a little more guidance, a little more not-as-vague. And it's helping. We are getting better tips. We're still getting some not-so-good tips, I would say. But we're getting a little better tips from this composite drawing.

okay so jumping off of the second sketch, we know that the second released sketch was actually done first or before the one they released. Why didn't they go with the first rendering? My guess and this is just my guess, is that maybe only a couple of people spotted the young version and came forward to report something they saw. But after interviewing more people, the second sketch looks more like the guy on the bridge. Following this? But they say in the above interview, that they put out the video in hopes someone would come forward. So they did, and we end up with the older, guy sketch. What if the younger guy, didn't have the hoodie up, or the hat on and you could see his face more clearly than the face in the video and that is the person they saw early on and it got pushed to the side, because everyone else is seeing what is on the video. In the video you can't see his chin, you see a dark shadow that looks like a goatee. The second release, the chin is long, distinctive, like they got a good look at him. I don't know if got my point across, it's hard to explain, but I think the younger version is BG without the hoodie up, no hat and maybe even his jacket off. What was he doing that made someone say, I saw this guy, blah, blah , blah....