Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[heartgoesout]

I have always believed LE was heading in the right direction at the beginning. I remember participating in a thread where this idea was discussed. I do believe that something seriously derailed the early efforts. I think they came full circle back to the beginning because an alibi became suspect. Not necessarily the killer's alibi. I know the 2019 press conference has been picked apart, but it seems to me there was definitely a "someone" in their sights. I do not know of any reports of the girls' families losing confidence in the investigation so I assume, although they want this man arrested, the families continue to trust LE. I do not put much faith in either of the sketches resembling BG very much when he is finally arrested. I do think the first sketch is closer to the video picture of BG.

I believe LE did not realize they missed something in the beginning. As a speculative example, allowing someone to retrieve and drive away in their vehicle that was parked oddly close to the crime scene. That would have been a serious derailment to later efforts if they found the right track.

 

[MistyWaters]

If these 100+ WS threads are anything to go by, right from the very beginning it was a prevailing belief by many that LE had a suspect and they were just “building their case”. (How LE would have the ability to identify a suspect without adequate evidence, nobody could ever say. That always seemed backward to me, as it’s evidence which points toward a suspect.)

Yet throughout the entire time LE has consistently asked for tips to identify the man on the bridge, over and over again. If they knew his identity they’d surely wouldn’t require tips to assist in identifying him.

So I wonder has that sort of public optimism impeded the solving of these homicides? If somebody had a strong hunch regarding the identity of this killer but was reluctant to come toward, would it be easy to just shrug it off rationalizing “Why bother, LE already knows!”?

 

[mom2chloe]

I wish the families would retain a PI or better yet reach out to Mark Furman. I know he is not everyone’s fave but what better scenario to compel a former detective to seek answers than this of two teenage girls murdered in broad daylight? IMO

 

[stattlich1]

I'd imagine if you'd search my posts from the time I originally came on board you'd likely find me saying something akin to my belief that something smells funky in this case.

I still have some questions regarding the entire investigation. I can't put my finger on it, sure, I have suspected things, for me, something just does not smell right in Dodge City.

I find it interesting the FBI was involved early on. FBI imperfections notwithstanding, it appears to me that if the FBI can't solve this case, then who can?

I just have this nagging little voice that tells me LE was duped early on. Some how, some way. I'm not sure the method of deception used, or from whence it came. I doubt a lie was told by someone interviewed. I think more so being misled by something awry at the crime scene. Some planted evidence, some thing that would have led them straightaway down the wrong path.

It was said by someone of LE, something to the effect that, though certain evidence would logically have led to a certain person or persons, said evidence in fact did not lead them there?

Then the grand change of direction. Ah, what was THAT all about? What that says to me is, we were, as hounds sniffing out a particular scent, heading down a certain path, we now realize that scent was planted, and not the true path we should have been on, and so, we have regrouped the pack, and are now heading down another path, the one we now think is the right one.

But if I am to believe this, then the FBI themselves were duped, were led astray. It seems unlikely such a large group of professionals would have been hornswoggled in such manner.

Did LE not say the voice is that of the man on the bridge, and the man on the bridge is responsible for the murders?

Anyway, can I say LE is stalled? Does this yet meet the definition of a cold case? I've heard said as long as there are tips to sort through, the case is not cold. Is that truly so?

If the first two years were spent on the wrong trail, and the past two years were spent on the correct trail, might we be closer to the killer than we think?

 

[MistyWaters]

I wish the families would retain a PI or better yet reach out to Mark Furman. I know he is not everyone’s fave but what better scenario to compel a former detective to seek answers than this of two teenage girls murdered in broad daylight? IMO

Considering there’s been upward of 40,000 tips to date, I think this case is well beyond one person’s ability to solve as they’d be starting from the beginning. I don’t doubt the competence of the various police departments and agencies who’ve been involved and indeed, the families are supportive of their work.

While there’s no such thing as a perfect murder, it stands to reason some killers make more mistakes than others. An outdoor crime scene adds complexity in the collection of DNA, plus the victims weren’t discovered until the following day which no doubt impacts the recollect of others in the area who had no reason to suspect anything was amiss a day earlier.

My wish would be for less dramatic grandstanding and more straight talk, if Carter or other LE choose to schedule another PC on the 4th anniversary once again asking for tips.

 

[heartgoesout]

Stattlich1, I do not remember this being alluded to by LE. Any chance you can find a source for this?
"It was said by someone of LE, something to the effect that, though certain evidence would logically have led to a certain person or persons, said evidence in fact did not lead them there?

 

[Jax49]

Stattlich1, I do not remember this being alluded to by LE. Any chance you can find a source for this?
"It was said by someone of LE, something to the effect that, though certain evidence would logically have led to a certain person or persons, said evidence in fact did not lead them there?

Not Stattlich1, but I believe the reference is to Ives' statement.

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

ETA: Link to earlier conversation.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

 

[MistyWaters]

Not Stattlich1, but I believe the reference is to Ives' statement.



Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

ETA: Link to earlier conversation.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

He may be referring to DNA, a contaminated or partial profile which cannot identify any one person.

 

[Yemelyan]

Just coming in to my email account and very interesting, IMO:
She didn’t know her kidnapper. But he was using Google Maps — and that cracked the case.
That got Draeger thinking. He conducts high-tech investigations for the Milwaukee Police Department, where he’d sought breaks in previous unsolved cases by using “cell tower dumps,” which compiled data from telecommunication companies to identify phones used near crime scenes. It was an expensive and arduous process and did not guarantee any usable results. But he might get results faster, and with more precision, if he went to a single source of highly precise location data: Google.

At a conference, Draeger had heard law enforcement officials discuss the possibility of asking Google for location data that could be used as a dragnet for a suspect’s phone.

The law that governs both cell phone dragnets and geofence data (like this article) is an evolving field. The crime in this article, like the Delphi case, occurred and was investigated in 2017, prior to a landmark ruling in 2018 that limited the scope of data dragnets. If Delphi investigators applied for warrants and gathered data in 2017, there is a chance that information derived from this could be excluded from a future trial based on inadmissability (there are some exceptions that have been made).

One of the things I find most interesting in the article is the fact that the victim in this sexual assault case basically went directly to the police (which is probably the best scenario for getting a usable DNA sample of the perpetrator) and they still only managed to isolate a partial DNA profile for him.

IMO this pertains directly to Delphi as we always hear people implying that some major screwup in evidence collection must account for the fact that we haven't heard much about DNA advancing the Delphi case toward resolution. Even under the "best" conditions, it's never guaranteed that you'll get a perfectly usable DNA sample. Add in an outdoor crime scene and the time until discovery and your odds go down...a lot.

 

[JnRyan]

So I wonder has that sort of public optimism impeded the solving of these homicides? If somebody had a strong hunch regarding the identity of this killer but was reluctant to come toward, would it be easy to just shrug it off rationalizing “Why bother, LE already knows!”?

Wow! Now there is an interesting thought. I know that in the first 2 weeks when I saw the photo and heard the video and the size of the task force that this case would be solved in short order. So that one tip may not have gone in because of a public perception of the video, audio and volume of tips that someone else called it in?

 

[news buff]

Remember reading that the car at the CPS building was abandoned and that it was at that location from noon to 5. If it was abandoned, was it towed at 5?

 

[pearl]

Remember reading that the car at the CPS building was abandoned and that it was at that location from noon to 5. If it was abandoned, was it towed at 5?

I think it was the building that was abandoned, no longer in use. It has subsequently been torn down.

 

[news buff]

I think it was the building that was abandoned, no longer in use. It has subsequently been torn down.

Okay, perhaps it was written incorrectly. "Supt. Carter also said police are searching for anyone with information on a vehicle that was abandoned at CPS DCS Welfare on east County Road 300 between noon and 5 p.m. on February 13, 2017." Delphi, Indiana murders: Police release new video, sketch and audio of suspect in killings of Abigail Williams, Liberty German

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I have always felt that early on the investigation was flawed and influenced because of the familiarity of Delphi and Carroll County police with the people they were initially interviewing and investigating. I don’t mean they were corrupt or covering up for someone. I mean they maybe excused certain behavior by someone reported to them because they knew them and “that’s just how they are but they’re OK”. Or they believed or didn’t believe someone because they had a history. Or they didn’t even talk to somebody because “oh that’s Bob and Linda’s son, he doesn’t know anything”.
After the April 2019 press conference where LE pulled out a brand new sketch they had since three days after the murders, that just solidified my thoughts on it.
I guess what I’m saying is...I don’t believe anybody misled police early on, I believe LE mislead themselves.

 

[somequestions]

If these 100+ WS threads are anything to go by, right from the very beginning it was a prevailing belief by many that LE had a suspect and they were just “building their case”. (How LE would have the ability to identify a suspect without adequate evidence, nobody could ever say. That always seemed backward to me, as it’s evidence which points toward a suspect.)

Yet throughout the entire time LE has consistently asked for tips to identify the man on the bridge, over and over again. If they knew his identity they’d surely wouldn’t require tips to assist in identifying him.

So I wonder has that sort of public optimism impeded the solving of these homicides? If somebody had a strong hunch regarding the identity of this killer but was reluctant to come toward, would it be easy to just shrug it off rationalizing “Why bother, LE already knows!”?

I think the more likely scenario after the 2nd sketch press conference in April 2019 is someone thinking that they should not report a tip because their person does not look like the 2nd sketch in age or appearance. This is only if LE is wrong.

The irony, even in a case with this many tips and so much public exposure, is that if LE is wrong I think they are inadvertently helping Abby and Libby's killer evade capture. But I know that LE has all the evidence and probably knows more than me, etc.

Again, this is only my opinion if LE is wrong, which we do not know if they actually are wrong.

I agree with your last statement about people potentially shrugging it off rationalizing, "Why bother, LE already knows!" I did not even send in a tip until the end of March 2017 because I thought with Libby's video/audio and all the exposure LE will solve the crime quickly. But I came to the conclusion that it is not my job to solve Abigail Williams and Liberty German's murder. It is their job. So I sent in information because I figured no one could say later that I sat on it and did nothing.

Your post shows an important point. Often times people make the comment in cases that if you know something, say something. But often times we do not know something for sure. I have no clue about whether the information I sent in was helpful. Since it has been so long I imagine it was not.

It is like the ending to the first episode of the show Disappeared. At the end Brandi Well's godmother said she drives around with a missing poster in her car because as she said, what if someone sees it and that person is the one person who has the information that could help us.

So you feel for the victims in this case because they got a video of the person LE believes is probably their killer. And maybe somewhere in all those thousands of tips is the one piece of information that could help solve their case.

 

[pearl]

Okay, perhaps it was written incorrectly. "Supt. Carter also said police are searching for anyone with information on a vehicle that was abandoned at CPS DCS Welfare on east County Road 300 between noon and 5 p.m. on February 13, 2017." Delphi, Indiana murders: Police release new video, sketch and audio of suspect in killings of Abigail Williams, Liberty German

I remember the issue being discussed when the info was first put out by LE. Some posters thought the wording meant the vehicle was abandoned and others thought it was the building. I do know that the building was no longer in use. It had been a child protective services building I think.

 

[BNA]

I'd imagine if you'd search my posts from the time I originally came on board you'd likely find me saying something akin to my belief that something smells funky in this case.

I still have some questions regarding the entire investigation. I can't put my finger on it, sure, I have suspected things, for me, something just does not smell right in Dodge City.

I find it interesting the FBI was involved early on. FBI imperfections notwithstanding, it appears to me that if the FBI can't solve this case, then who can?

I just have this nagging little voice that tells me LE was duped early on. Some how, some way. I'm not sure the method of deception used, or from whence it came. I doubt a lie was told by someone interviewed. I think more so being misled by something awry at the crime scene. Some planted evidence, some thing that would have led them straightaway down the wrong path.

It was said by someone of LE, something to the effect that, though certain evidence would logically have led to a certain person or persons, said evidence in fact did not lead them there?

Then the grand change of direction. Ah, what was THAT all about? What that says to me is, we were, as hounds sniffing out a particular scent, heading down a certain path, we now realize that scent was planted, and not the true path we should have been on, and so, we have regrouped the pack, and are now heading down another path, the one we now think is the right one.

But if I am to believe this, then the FBI themselves were duped, were led astray. It seems unlikely such a large group of professionals would have been hornswoggled in such manner.

Did LE not say the voice is that of the man on the bridge, and the man on the bridge is responsible for the murders?

Anyway, can I say LE is stalled? Does this yet meet the definition of a cold case? I've heard said as long as there are tips to sort through, the case is not cold. Is that truly so?

If the first two years were spent on the wrong trail, and the past two years were spent on the correct trail, might we be closer to the killer than we think?

I agree that the FBI situation seems problematic here. Maybe what we need is a new United States Attorney General. We will have one soon. Maybe that can kickstart the FBI investigation.

 

[stattlich1]

He may be referring to DNA, a contaminated or partial profile which cannot identify any one person.

Thank you. I spend time every day thinking of these girls. I check in on this thread almost daily, and read about every post. The wording 'a lot of physical evidence', for me, very well may not be DNA evidence, rather, other evidence, of which possibly DNA could be a part. If only DNA was what he was referring to, then they would have 'a lot of DNA'. And if they have a lot of DNA, then they simply have not found the match. Unless they have a lot of partial and questionable DNA.

How could a lot of DNA evidence, you know, from what I understand, the stuff doesn't lie, I mean, if you have a lot of it, so how could a lot of DNA evidence logically (to me, this is not even a proper word to use in terms of DNA identification, as logic does not play in to it) lead to one person or another but not do so? Doesn't make sense to me.

Are we saying they may have had a lot of DNA evidence, both solid and partial DNA, that logically would lead them to the people to whom it belonged, however, when investigated, each of those people were found to have solid alibi's? This makes sense to me.

Then might they have no DNA of the killer himself? Or as said earlier, they DO have unidentified DNA, so simply have not found the person to whom it belongs?

Or could obvious DNA have been planted, leading surely to one person, or another, but when investigated, it was clear those persons were not involved?

I still think the scene had plenty of stuff strewn about. It's just speculation, as none of us really know. However, he does say 'a lot'. To me, that means, well, a lot of physical evidence.

So what evidence, other than DNA, would logically lead to one person, or another but doesn't, if it were NOT planted? Items that the killer left at the scene, that belonged to or were identical to items known to belong to one person, or another?

Something has to account for the 'change in direction'. And if LE was heading in the wrong direction, then the question for me becomes, why?

 

[sunshineray]

Jumping in to say I'd simply like to know if LE was misled early on in the investigation and in what way.

I believe that's a resounding "Yes" to LE being misled early on. If you take ISP Carter words, "Directly to the killer....For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have....We know this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day, you will." at face value....
1. He was addressing the killer.
2. He told the killer, LE knew that for more than two years they thought what he, the killer, was comfortable with them thinking.
3. LE then announced to the killer they were seeking to change their strategy to catch him and know this is going to upset the killer's need to know what LE is thinking.

This is AJMO, I hear in those words that yes indeed LE was misled by the killer and it was an ongoing sort of thing, not just a very early on, one time instance of trickery.

 

[sunshineray]

Re-reading these early news reports are very interesting. In this article, LE says about BG:

"We're not saying he's a suspect, we just want to talk to him to find out what he might have seen,' Sgt. Kim Riley, of Indiana State Police, told DailyMail.com on Thursday."

If LE had video or audio of this person harming or threatening the girls, would they say something like this? I guess they could lie to throw off the person. But you'd think they would immediately say: this is our suspect, he is armed and dangerous, if you see him, do not approach. I don't know. Maybe they don't have as much as we think they do.

I'm thinking it may have been a chance taken to reel in either BG (they couldn't know for sure what his mental health was and it was worth a shot that he might just call or show up) or someone who may recognized him but just couldn't consider that person a killer. We just think this person may have witnessed something useful...