Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[stattlich1]

I don't know anything about canine units, either, but if the killer handled the girls at any time, I wonder if the dogs can search off that scent? I would not be surprised if they are trained to isolate different human scent from another on the same body. JMO

Yes. If the killer had physical contact with either, or both of the girls, anything that may have transferred from the girls to the killer's body, then a dog could be given that scent to attempt to locate and follow an escape route.

 

[cujenn81]

I think we’re overly focused on the sketches given the culprit is now almost 4 years older and no doubt his appearance has substantially changed, even if the sketches were originally close to accurate. Considering the sketches are only as good as the witnesses recollect and their ability to communicate that same memory to a sketch artist, as no arrest has yet been made that level of accuracy is still unknown.

Just a thought regarding if it’s possible the sketches are of the same person (aside from the fact LE know where and when the sightings took place) - if one sketch depicts someone who might be 18, it certainly can’t be the same person in another sketch who might be 60 years of age. Otherwise if somebody is unable to distinguish the difference between that age range - an 18 or 60 year old man, I’d highly question the accuracy of any other features in a sketch they were involved in creating. JMO

Agreed.

A female hiker witnessed David Carpenter (The Trailside Killer) approach and kill one of his victims from a close distance away. She fled and immediately reported the crime to the police and gave them a very detailed description of the killer — thin, athletic, mid-20s, dark hair, hawk nose, wearing hiking boots. Unfortunately, her description later proved to be completely wrong in almost every way and misled investigators for some time.

 

[FrostedGlass]

When they said there were things at the crime scene that only the killer would know about... I wonder if he lost that darn white thing that we've been puzzling about for the last 4 years.

 

[JnRyan]

I 100% think this very scenario may happen. I happen to believe, and this is merely an opinion, that someone knows who did this. Whether they've called it in yet or not is anyone's guess.

Far as interest in the case goes here in Indiana, I can assure members here it's very much on folks' minds. I moved to Howard County in October, after living in Allen County for a number of years, and the case has not only come up in conversation, it's on folks' minds at work all the time. Some folks here in Howard County have been out there to the trails in recent times, I went there in October myself for a "look-see".

Howard County is adjacent to Carroll, just east. One co-worker of mine dates a gal who has two girls in Delphi schools that would have been around Abby and Libby's age. If there's a region of IN where a lot of people truly know or know of each other, across a wide area, it's in this part of central Indiana. Which is frustrating, considering the killer has not been caught. People drive substantial distances for work, some guys at work drive upwards of an hour. One drives in from Monticello. This is definitely a "word gets around" part of the state.

Which tells me BG is not from the immediate vicinity of Delphi, and to me it would make sense for a killer in this case to not be from there or even anywhere in Carroll County. He could have been recognized on the trail. Be that as it may, I believe he's in this region of IN.

JMO

To further add to the story. Barbara Walker stated she never would have called in that tip if she knew her son was involved.

I tend to believe this killer is not on anyone's radar. BUT if he is and he is someone's son or grandson they may refrain from calling in a tip.

 

[JnRyan]

This states they are not the same person and the first sketch is no longer a POI. Still confusing when I remember someone in LE stating he could look like a combination of the two. Very large oversight IMO.

Thanks for bringing this back up. It sure refreshes my memory. And it was, what, 3 weeks to a month later that ISP Superintendent Carter who says in an interview that "a sketch is not a photo" (OK, thank you Captain Obvious) and that the killer might look like something "between the two sketches".

Confused? So am I. As @stattlich1 pointed out earlier, maybe no one saw the killer that day. And maybe LE is confused, too.

 

[LadyL]

To further add to the story. Barbara Walker stated she never would have called in that tip if she knew her son was involved.

I tend to believe this killer is not on anyone's radar. BUT if he is and he is someone's son or grandson they may refrain from calling in a tip.

who is Barbara Walker?

 

[somequestions]

After this long, what is your theory or profile about this case?

I think this person has probably killed before. Like FBI profiler, John Douglas said, "you just do not wake up one day and commit a double homicide like this". I agree. Based on the time of day, I think this person has a job that allows them to be missing for periods of time without being missed. They obviously know the Monon High Bridge, but not well enough to feel comfortable murdering two girls until they walk them a good distance away from it. I think a refrigerated truck driver is a good possibility in terms of clothing, location, and timing. But I admit I cannot figure out where the semi truck was parked during the crime.

I think the killer is an older person who at the time of the crime was above the age of 50 who is not that familiar with technology. Based on the leg stride length in the video he looks like he takes a longer stride with his left foot so possibly someone who is left-handed? This is very difficult to tell from the video released. I admit though that I got this idea from the movie, "Flight of the Phoenix"(2004), where Dennis Quaid's character Captain Townes is explaining to one person in particular why they should not try to walk out of the desert.

I do not think this is a trail killer. The trail is incidental. This is someone who looks for an opportunity. I think this person would kill a lonely person at a truck stop as much as two girls on a remote Indiana hiking trail. Trails simply provide that opportunity more often. But a trail within a city would be as good as one out in the country provided there were no witnesses. I know I have already written this, but public places can be accessed by anyone.

In terms of where the killer resides now, I think it could be anywhere in the United States, but it would be very surprising if the killer lives in Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area. Truck drivers can be thousands of miles away so that is a guess I cannot make.

Criminal psychology profile

I do not know much about criminal psychology other than a few books I have read. And without knowing about the crime scene or what happened to Abby and Libby it is hard to guess. I would listen to what a criminal profiler expert has to say in this regard. Here is my opinion.

Looking at Liberty German's video, what is sort of interesting is how far away the killer seems to be when she started the video. When you factor in the age of the girls, it could be that they saw someone they feared. So many times people have used the word "monster" in this case to describe the killer. I think that is sort of dismissive, but maybe that is the answer. How do we first see others? We look at their face. Maybe the killer in this case did not do anything to arouse the girls' suspicion. All it took was for this man to walk towards them to make them feel afraid.

 

[mom2chloe]

I wonder if there is any dog handler on the forum? "Animals in criminology" is such an amazing area, and even regardless of this case, it would be so interesting to know more.

@K9Enzo Help please! TIA!

 

[Yemelyan]

After this long, what is your theory or profile about this case?

I think this person has probably killed before. Like FBI profiler, John Douglas said, "you just do not wake up one day and commit a double homicide like this". I agree.

.

Snipped to highlight this part...

Obviously, all due respect to the esteemed John Douglas but some murderers do start out with multiple victims....didn't BTK target 4 people in his first attack?

I decided to look at just double child abduction murders by a non-family member, like what happened to Libby and Abby, which we know are the rarest of the rare types of crime. Haven't we heard the statistic that the FBI only knows about 15 such cases since the 1970s? How many of these cases involve an offender who chooses two victims for his first murder?

This is not an exhaustive search. But taking out the cases that are still unsolved, like Evansdale, I found these examples of first time child murderers who targeted two victims on their first attempt (all cases listed here had victims age 13 and younger)

1. Michael Klunder (only succeeded in murdering one of the two victims due to an escape).
2. Kevin Sweat
3. Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr.
4. Jorge Avila-Torres

And from the UK I found these two examples:
5. Ronald Jebsen
6. Ian Huntley

Some of these offenders have known previous assaults against single victims that didn't progress to murder. If they went on to commit more murders, they usually targeted single victims the next time around. Perhaps learning from their crime that it's quite hard to control two victims?

So while I'd agree that few people wake up and out of nowhere decide to murder (most people worked up to it through escalating lesser assaults), when it comes to people known to target two children at once, perhaps as many as 20-25% of the known offenders targeted two victims in their first murder. And to me that's actually quite a lot, considering what a rare crime this type of non-family child homicide is.

Maybe instead of assuming someone who takes two victims at once is extremely experienced, we should start wondering if they are in fact very inexperienced and actually haven't thought through the crime very well?

Just some thoughts.

 

[minazoe]

BTK is the most detestable despicable human being. Visiting Wichita and driving around there, the little country houses some with cows and horses on the lawn, roads turning to dirt..you could tune bible thumpers on every radio station... I felt like there was still a stain there..

I hate BTK. mOO

 

[somequestions]

Snipped to highlight this part...

Obviously, all due respect to the esteemed John Douglas but some murderers do start out with multiple victims....didn't BTK target 4 people in his first attack?

I decided to look at just double child abduction murders by a non-family member, like what happened to Libby and Abby, which we know are the rarest of the rare types of crime. Haven't we heard the statistic that the FBI only knows about 15 such cases since the 1970s? How many of these cases involve an offender who chooses two victims for his first murder?

This is not an exhaustive search. But taking out the cases that are still unsolved, like Evansdale, I found these examples of first time child murderers who targeted two victims on their first attempt (all cases listed here had victims age 13 and younger)

1. Michael Klunder (only succeeded in murdering one of the two victims due to an escape).
2. Kevin Sweat
3. Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr.
4. Jorge Avila-Torres

And from the UK I found these two examples:
5. Ronald Jebsen
6. Ian Huntley

Some of these offenders have known previous assaults against single victims that didn't progress to murder. If they went on to commit more murders, they usually targeted single victims the next time around. Perhaps learning from their crime that it's quite hard to control two victims?

So while I'd agree that few people wake up and out of nowhere decide to murder (most people worked up to it through escalating lesser assaults), when it comes to people known to target two children at once, perhaps as many as 20-25% of the known offenders targeted two victims in their first murder. And to me that's actually quite a lot, considering what a rare crime this type of non-family child homicide is.

Maybe instead of assuming someone who takes two victims at once is extremely experienced, we should start wondering if they are in fact very inexperienced and actually haven't thought through the crime very well?

Just some thoughts.

But those cases are not this case.

In another case, the murders of J.B. Beasley and Tracie Hawlett in Ozark, AL back in 1999, I thought the murderer came upon those two girls spontaneously. I still would like to know how and where they crossed paths with their killer. I did not see him as being experienced at all because there were different aspects to that crime. As for whether or not the man that is in custody in that case is their killer, I do not know. But that case was different.

I think there are aspects to each individual case, whether it be a missing persons or murder case, that make it unique.

 

[ReadySet]

bbm
The wanted poster actually says "but may appear younger."

Im sorry if it’s off topic but I think I finally made sense of previous remarks on how the suspect could turn out to be a combination of both sketches.

IMO If you look at each sketch individually, they look like completely different people but if you look at them side by side, comparing each feature individually, the features themself are very similar.

The major differences that I noticed were the features that make OBG appear older
ex. Eyelids, deeper smile lines

Please give it a try, I attached a picture of both - side by side.

IMO So possibly, two sketches from two age perspectives but of the same person.
The ‘may appear older than he actually is’ as mentioned on the wanted poster with the YBG sketch, could be covering OBG.

I question why they moved on to the YBG sketch - possible ideas:

• more viable witness statements
• Analysis of crime scene
• DNA analysis

I’m sure you guys have much better ideas and even thought of all this so sorry if I missed it

 

[PaulaDC]

Snipped to highlight this part...

Obviously, all due respect to the esteemed John Douglas but some murderers do start out with multiple victims....didn't BTK target 4 people in his first attack?

I decided to look at just double child abduction murders by a non-family member, like what happened to Libby and Abby, which we know are the rarest of the rare types of crime. Haven't we heard the statistic that the FBI only knows about 15 such cases since the 1970s? How many of these cases involve an offender who chooses two victims for his first murder?

This is not an exhaustive search. But taking out the cases that are still unsolved, like Evansdale, I found these examples of first time child murderers who targeted two victims on their first attempt (all cases listed here had victims age 13 and younger)

1. Michael Klunder (only succeeded in murdering one of the two victims due to an escape).
2. Kevin Sweat
3. Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr.
4. Jorge Avila-Torres

And from the UK I found these two examples:
5. Ronald Jebsen
6. Ian Huntley

Some of these offenders have known previous assaults against single victims that didn't progress to murder. If they went on to commit more murders, they usually targeted single victims the next time around. Perhaps learning from their crime that it's quite hard to control two victims?

So while I'd agree that few people wake up and out of nowhere decide to murder (most people worked up to it through escalating lesser assaults), when it comes to people known to target two children at once, perhaps as many as 20-25% of the known offenders targeted two victims in their first murder. And to me that's actually quite a lot, considering what a rare crime this type of non-family child homicide is.

Maybe instead of assuming someone who takes two victims at once is extremely experienced, we should start wondering if they are in fact very inexperienced and actually haven't thought through the crime very well?

Just some thoughts.

There are a lot of teenage rapes in Indiana when you Google it.

 

[Yemelyan]

But those cases are not this case.

In another case, the murders of J.B. Beasley and Tracie Hawlett in Ozark, AL back in 1999, I thought the murderer came upon those two girls spontaneously. I still would like to know how and where they crossed paths with their killer. I did not see him as being experienced at all because there were different aspects to that crime. As for whether or not the man that is in custody in that case is their killer, I do not know. But that case was different.

I think there are aspects to each individual case, whether it be a missing persons or murder case, that make it unique.

Of course the circumstances of each case are unique, but there are patterns, true? Or else what is the point of studying any type of crime and trying to understand how offenders made decisions and acted, how they got to be like they are?

The solved cases I cited are actually some of the most similar to the murders of Abby and Libby that are known. As I stated, two child victims abducted and murdered at the same time are in a category that is quite rare even among the rarest types of murder. The FBI thinks there are only around 15 similar cases in the last 50 years where a killer went after two children at once. Is there any value in knowing how the solved cases in this rare group are alike? How old the perpetrators tended to be (average age 27), where they tended to live or work (near the crime scene), if they have a history of violence (yes), what their motivation was (almost always sexual)? Or do investigators just throw their hands up with each new crime and say "oh well, each case is unique"?

 

[Nancy1954]

It is now February 11, 2021. Almost 4 years since Abby & Libby were murdered and still no arrest of the monster who did this heinous crime. My thoughts have changed since I followed the beginning of this case. I used to think that BG was older(40's-50's), I now think that he is younger(20's-30's). I have always believed that his attire was something he acquired from a thrift shop, and that he was disguised(I still do), and that is why no one recognizes him. I have always believed that he was from that area (a town or two away) and has since moved away. We know that a lot of sketches are not even close to what the perpetrator usually looks like, I don't take any stock in them, I only go by the video of the monster on the bridge. The sketches, in my opinion, haven't helped this case at all, only made it that more confusing. From the beginning I have believed that he walked out of those woods(after getting rid of his clothes and disguise, perhaps burying them on the way out). I think he casually strolled out of those woods and got in his vehicle that was parked in town (Delphi). No one would have given him a second thought or look as by then LE would have been notified and chaos would have ensued upon that town. I pray every day that this case gets closure.

 

[sunshineray]

Snipped to highlight this part...

Obviously, all due respect to the esteemed John Douglas but some murderers do start out with multiple victims....didn't BTK target 4 people in his first attack?

I decided to look at just double child abduction murders by a non-family member, like what happened to Libby and Abby, which we know are the rarest of the rare types of crime. Haven't we heard the statistic that the FBI only knows about 15 such cases since the 1970s? How many of these cases involve an offender who chooses two victims for his first murder?

This is not an exhaustive search. But taking out the cases that are still unsolved, like Evansdale, I found these examples of first time child murderers who targeted two victims on their first attempt (all cases listed here had victims age 13 and younger)

1. Michael Klunder (only succeeded in murdering one of the two victims due to an escape).
2. Kevin Sweat
3. Lloyd Lee Welch, Jr.
4. Jorge Avila-Torres

And from the UK I found these two examples:
5. Ronald Jebsen
6. Ian Huntley

Some of these offenders have known previous assaults against single victims that didn't progress to murder. If they went on to commit more murders, they usually targeted single victims the next time around. Perhaps learning from their crime that it's quite hard to control two victims?

So while I'd agree that few people wake up and out of nowhere decide to murder (most people worked up to it through escalating lesser assaults), when it comes to people known to target two children at once, perhaps as many as 20-25% of the known offenders targeted two victims in their first murder. And to me that's actually quite a lot, considering what a rare crime this type of non-family child homicide is.

Maybe instead of assuming someone who takes two victims at once is extremely experienced, we should start wondering if they are in fact very inexperienced and actually haven't thought through the crime very well?

Just some thoughts.

There was a podcast that had 3 retired FBI agents that talked about the Delphi murders. I'm sorry I don't recall their names. It was said in discussions that most likely the killer had a "lair" (the crime scene) all prepared to bring his victims there.

I've wondered if actual knowledge of the Delphi crime scene had led them to think that or it was a generalization developed by years of experience in murder, by their profiling skills.

What are your thoughts about a prepared "lair"? The thing that makes me hit a brick wall with that is the fording of the creek in Winter. Why would an inexperienced killer even include that in their plan? If the Delphi killer was experienced and not a first time offender, again why make a plan to cross that creek?

 

[asyousay]

I still think this person hasn’t done this before. I think he saw them and took the opportunity that was opened up to him. They was in the middle of nowhere two young girls and he was a sick freak who thought he could get away with this and unfortunately so far has.

MOO

 

[stattlich1]

What are your thoughts about a prepared "lair"? The thing that makes me hit a brick wall with that is the fording of the creek in Winter. Why would an inexperienced killer even include that in their plan? If the Delphi killer was experienced and not a first time offender, again why make a plan to cross that creek?

I think this killer knew that property. RL's property, including the entire trail and creek bottom. I think it likely this killer knew RL. I think this killer was on that property before, possibly years ago, as a child, or a teenager.

That location is one that kids would play around in, teenagers would go for a smoke, or to party. It's also a location that would be accessed by hunters, or trappers.

The teenagers, IMO, wouldn't necessarily care about knowing the property owner, but they might. Maybe it was someone who was friends with RL's kids.

The hunters/trappers would likely know RL, and would likely have had permission to access that bottom land.

I just looked at some video of the area, with RL and a reporter walking down the trail, on RL's property, toward the crime scene. The woods is wide open, the trail down is easy. RL walks with that reporter down the trail a short way, standing next to what I presume is the old quarry. Still atop the hill, he points out the CS (which has the yellow tape around it) and the bridge. He also mentions the distances, half mile from one point to another. He claims it's difficult to get from the bridge to the CS. I don't agree. I've spent LOTS of time traversing the woods. Thick woods. I've hiked up mountains. I'm not young. I could tramp around in those woods, quickly, and easily. I could huff it down that hill from the cemetery, all around those woods, and back up and out of there without issue.

Note, from the high ground, they have a view of the entire area. Crime Scene, bridge, etc. And RL knows where the trail passes through the woods, pointing a half mile or so away, through the trees. I think the killer too knew all this.

The killer knew where to cross that creek, and knew exactly where he was going.

If I recall, RL wasn't home that day. I still think, from what I've seen of the terrain, that cemetery would be a real easy access point to get in and out of the area.

MOO

 

[Beachlife926]

Anyone can make changes to Wikipedia and all changes are tracked. I was reviewing edits made to the their Wikipedia page and was surprised to see possible suspects (that were deleted because they didn’t have a citation)
a lot of edits to go through but thought something could stick out
IMO

 

[Skully]

It is so sad that with everything LE does have, it's the one thing they don't have to solve this and that is someone coming forward. I do think he knew the area, been there before, but lives far enough away now that no one is making the connection. I also think a mom, wife, sister or GF, know who he is, but are unwilling to come forward at this time. They may not know 100% but they are suspicious of him but maybe afraid for various reasons. I hope LE gets that tip soon, for the sake of the next victim or victims he targets.