Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[Charlot123]

I have long thought that the killer *did* wear a mask, even if only a partial mask. While thinking of Libby and Abby today and yesterday, and especially remembering their families during this difficult time, a creepy thought came to mind: What if...when the girls *first* saw the man, they just kept on talking (as has been mentioned by various posters here re: "talking about things that middle school girls talk about..."). Then...when he got closer, and called out to them, they...recognized his voice? (And yes, this is entirely speculative.)

Supposing one of the girls said, "Oh, hey, fill in the name of someone well-known to them here, what's with the mask, huh? You can't fool us! We'd know that voice anywhere!" (Yet...*if* this hypothesis were the case, LE is certainly *not* about to divulge that info. Not to the general public, for obvious reasons.) And we *don't* know everything that Libby's phone recorded (speaking of the audio here); what we *do* have is a polished-up version of "DTH".

All JMOO here, but...this possible "voice recognition" (of the killer by the girls) would explain how LE has tended toward the killer's being local to Delphi, or to a nearby town/township/unincorporated area. (Ages ago -- a year? Two years? Not sure right now, but someone here mentioned the possibility of voice-typing, using the sound waves from an audio recording, in order to narrow down potential suspects.)
--
As a side note, I still think that the killer is local -- not necessarily in Delphi (though he absolutely *could* be), but ve-e-e-ry close... Do I think that he's "disguised" himself? Meh. Maybe. But more likely is that he's *truly* "in.plain.sight", and thinks that, since he's skipped away free for 4 years now, he's "home free". Still goes to all the local places (and with Covid? All the better to remain "in disguise", at least partially, with a mask covering part of his face -- more difficult for anyone to suddenly realize... "Could he be the killer?"), lives life as if everything's fine and dandy. All this, while two young girls' lives were cut short.

Not.so.fast.

There is not a day that goes by that he does not think about the crime, his present situation, and reminds himself to not do anything "extraordinary" (i. e., drawing undue attention to himself). Thus, it would *appear* (operative word) that he's gotten away with murder.

Nope.

Justice will prevail.

(Even if the killer's *one* person who "knows"/has "connected the dots" is still too, too terrified to say so much as a word -- to the killer, to LE, to anyone.)

Also (MOO) while the killer may be a quiet individual, they are "known" (even if they've left for a few months, or a semester, etc.) in town, and by local individuals. Those who do know him? They would never dream that he would be capable of such a thing... (but now we're getting into profiling.)

On this sad 4th anniversary weekend, continuing to pray for justice for Libby and Abby and their families.

I would be unsurprised if he is not from Delphi proper. I think 10 miles radius. I even thought, Logansport, but it depends on a couple of hobbies, and I don’t know his traits or hobbies.

Much depends on the age. If he is 18+, it is one story/behavior, perhaps, covered by the parents. At one point, I even thought, Loganspost, but that depends on a couple of hobbies, and I don’t know them.

If it is 40-, then, probably, he is married, has a family? Covered by the partner?

There is no way the partner is that blind.

 

[Charlot123]

Deleted

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think his crimes will only come to light if one of his relatives or a previous girlfriend come forward with information about his past. I think it will be someone who has changed their appearance dramatically since their family last saw them. Someone who’s childhood was difficult and their strange behaviour was swept under the carpet, maybe abuse and violence was normal to him growing up and any living relatives do not want to bring up past trauma so they put their doubts to one side. I think he’s become resentful towards women, maybe a possible incel who’s been rejected by every woman in their lives.

bbm
A previous girlfriend might be the connection to the greater Delphi area, less than a connection to grandparents/parents/relatives, who have lived there in the past. I never heard of this possibility during 4 years, although it seems reasonable to assume so, when we think of a BG in the age range 18-40 yo (perhaps in his late twenties in 2017). This poor ex-girlfriend, IF there is one, is also to be regretted in view of a very difficult decision, whether to give tips or not to LE. Who is willing to admit, that one was in a relationship with a potential murderer. Must be a nightmare, only having a reason to think about that.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Btw:
WS isn't working well today, at least for me.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think the reason the search was called off was a matter of logistics and resourcing. A small place the size of Delphi with a volunteer fire dept etc....probably not much happens at night and emergency response work on an on-call basis. So I’m also guessing the majority of the searchers out that evening had already been up since daybreak. If so, in making a call by midnight to stop the search, I’d think it’s reasonable to let volunteer searchers have a few hours sleep at least and start afresh in the morning. I’d be very surprised if Delphi has a large crew of overnight shift workers or if the sort of townsfolk who volunteered would be capable of conducting a competent search going beyond 16 or more hours without any sleep.

Smaller communities are not like urban centres that have good reason to resource their police and fire departments with an equal number of employees day and night.

JMO

The BG would have known about these shortcomings, if he did his analysis of all the conditions, in which he wanted to work on his next crime. Maybe, he even planned to disturb the following investigation with an anonymous alarm call to LE, if needed at a certain point. IMO

 

[Satchie]

Who is willing to admit, that one was in a relationship with a potential murderer. Must be a nightmare, only having a reason to think about that.

RSBM
Not sure I agree with your last comment, in my observation ex wives and girlfriends are not so loyal. If a guy is a murderous creep, the former wife/girlfriend usually knows that better than anyone and has no hesitation to tell people. She doesn't see it as a personal failing to have been involved, once the relationship is over.

In a nearby case I followed back in 2008, of a 14 year old girl murdered in a park, the former wife told police the suspect had a hidden dark side, and that he'd stalked a woman who looked similar to the victim.

Btw, just for comparison, that case was solved because a couple of witnesses thought they recognized the man, a local, as having been in the park that afternoon. Which raises the issue, a perp from Delphi would run the risk of being recognized before or after the murders.

 

[Charlot123]

I would be interested to learn, if an unknown religious poem (authored by the killer) was left at the crime scene .....

I don’t know about the poem, because I did not connect Murders to st. Valentine and thought the connection was random, snow day.

But today, reading about that mysterious saint, I have found out:

- that St. Valentine’s holiday is the other form of pagan Lupercalia. So if, for example, the person reads into the history, and a goat hide, cut into strings, especially with blood on it, was found in the CS, this to me would indicate what kind of books the killer would be interested in, and in general, the area of his knowledge. (So maybe the “random” issues on the CS are not so random, I want to say, but one has to know the connection?)

- that possibly, the first “Valentine” was written by St. Valentine himself

But the first known Valentine was written by Charles, Duc D’Orleans, in Tower.

Here it is:

“My very gentle Valentine,
Since for me you were born too soon,
And I for you was born too late.
God forgives him who has estranged
Me from you for the whole year.
I am already sick of love,
My very gentle Valentine.”


So if we knew that a letter was found, and its contents, perhaps we could find the origin.

I suspect that if the dude writes poems, he probably plagiarizes. The poems of Charles of Orleans (a lot) are on Goodreads, maybe look for something there?

 

[Charlot123]

We had a lot of discussion in the beginning as to if the girls were taken away and brought back later. Most thought that wasn't likely. Someone could have parked on the private road under the bridge, threw them in the car and drove away. They could have been somewhere watching the news on tv and listening to the search on Broadcastify.

It was so dark in the woods, I don't know if anyone would have seen them bringing the girls back. Or, if they did, they might have thought they were searchers. They could have parked in the cemetery, dumped the bodies down the hill and then been gone.

I've always wondered why the girls stayed at the end of the bridge. It's so narrow and steep on either side; it just seems like they would have walked further south just that little way to the farmer's field. Or maybe they did go down that first little hill to the road, thinking he would keep going to the farmer's field. However, after all this time, none of the scenarios fit well.

It is interesting that for a while, there were discussions about Libby’s shoe found in the driveway, but no details provided. My question would be, whose driveway?

But with time, all these shoe discussions petered out.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Snipped and bolded by me...regarding the bolded part, how do you know that leaving three signatures equals a "seasoned" killer? Are you trying to say that serial offenders leave no signatures on their first crime, one signature in their second murder, two in their third, and so on? Because that's definitely not how investigators view signatures...I think it is an incorrect assumption that signatures equal criminal experience.

Signatures are not defined by whether or not they occur in series. They are only defined as outward manifestations of the inner psychological urge that led to the crime. Take this example:

Charles Albright is believed to be the murderer of at least three women in Texas in the early 90s. He had an early fascination with violence and his mother took some of the small animals he killed to a taxidermist. He developed a fixation on taxidermy, especially the removal of the eyes. He killed his victims, who were sex workers, by beating and shooting them. He also removed their eyes.

Removing their eyes was not in any way necessary to kill them. He did that for his own pleasure and it was a clear reflection of a fantasy or a psychological urge that likely grew out of documented experiences in his troubled childhood. So my question is, has he been caught after the first victim, would we not call the eye removal a signature? Or would we recognize it for what it was, the personation of his fantasy in the crime? Yes, this feature of the killings did ultimately link all three of his murders as the work of one extremely evil and disturbed man, but that does not mean that in the first killing it wasn't a signature.

I'm also thinking of the killer Roger Kibbe. He had several signatures, and used them even on his first crime in the series (tying the victim with a particular type of cord that was special to him, cutting their clothing, and cutting their hair).

I've mentioned Jessica Ridgway's killer here before. He only committed one murder because he was caught fairly quickly but he performed several signatures in his first attempt: hair cutting, re-dressing, souvenir taking, and inserting a cross in the victim's remains. He later tried to say the cross part was re-direction but investigators were able to show that the cross had direct ties to the psychological reasons that he decided to kill. So if you looked at all the signatures this offender left and claimed they had to be the work of an experienced killer, you might have overlooked the teenage suspect who actually committed the crime.

The more I think about the Delphi case, the more I question the idea that he was experienced. IMO the only highly correlated conclusion we can draw from signatures is that the offender is driven by psychosexual urges and is highly likely to seek out more experiences in which to express those urges, i.e. offend again.


All MOO

Just imagine, the BG is a NERD in the field of murder/manslaughter/double murder. He knows it all in theory, better than 10 detectives all together. He is able to create a crime scene like he wants and powerfully leads all investigators astray, planting "signatures", planting "DNA", planting weapons, planting something else. His mind isn't concerned with sex in the broadest sense, but with doing a perfect (violent) crime, which looks like "that" and is in reality "this". Even his victims might be chosen for a certain reason, for example for the reason, that each time a lot of wrong people would be suspected to be the killer (a betrayed husband, a greedy father-in-law, a drug-addicted father and so on). Stalking would him tell. Just imagine! What a fake it could be (except his real victims)! IMO

 

[Andreee]

bbm
A previous girlfriend might be the connection to the greater Delphi area, less than a connection to grandparents/parents/relatives, who have lived there in the past. I never heard of this possibility during 4 years, although it seems reasonable to assume so, when we think of a BG in the age range 18-40 yo (perhaps in his late twenties in 2017). This poor ex-girlfriend, IF there is one, is also to be regretted in view of a very difficult decision, whether to give tips or not to LE. Who is willing to admit, that one was in a relationship with a potential murderer. Must be a nightmare, only having a reason to think about that.

I think if I was an ex of his who had good reason to think he committed the crime, that I would report him anonymously and relocate! At least for a while.

 

[Charlot123]

Just imagine, the BG is a NERD in the field of murder/manslaughter/double murder. He knows it all in theory, better than 10 detectives all together. He is able to create a crime scene like he wants and powerfully leads all investigators astray, planting "signatures", planting "DNA", planting weapons, planting something else. His mind isn't concerned with sex in the broadest sense, but with doing a perfect (violent) crime, which looks like "that" and is in reality "this". Just imagine. IMO

If he is a high-IQ nerd, I would not be surprised. He is on the computer, he has imaginary world, he probably dreamed of killings and had his high off them. In this case, he can not be caught unless they release more information.

Release it, and find another nerd to catch him.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I don’t know about the poem, because I did not connect Murders to st. Valentine and thought the connection was random, snow day.

But today, reading about that mysterious saint, I have found out:

- that St. Valentine’s holiday is the other form of pagan Lupercalia. So if, for example, the person reads into the history, and a goat hide, cut into strings, especially with blood on it, was found in the CS, this to me would indicate what kind of books the killer would be interested in, and in general, the area of his knowledge. (So maybe the “random” issues on the CS are not so random, I want to say, but one has to know the connection?)

- that possibly, the first “Valentine” was written by St. Valentine himself

But the first known Valentine was written by Charles, Duc D’Orleans, in Tower.

Here it is:

“My very gentle Valentine,
Since for me you were born too soon,
And I for you was born too late.
God forgives him who has estranged
Me from you for the whole year.
I am already sick of love,
My very gentle Valentine.”


So if we knew that a letter was found, and its contents, perhaps we could find the origin.

I suspect that if the dude writes poems, he probably plagiarizes. The poems of Charles of Orleans (a lot) are on Goodreads, maybe look for something there?

I didn't think of a connection with Valentine's Day, but maybe, it could have been a poem re that theme. Plagiarism would be beneath his dignity, IMO, if there was found a poem at all. As I said: I would like to know.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If he is a high-IQ nerd, I would not be surprised. He is on the computer, he has imaginary world, he probably dreamed of killings and had his high off them. In this case, he can not be caught unless they release more information.

Release it, and find another nerd to catch him.

Your last sentence: verrry well combined! We need another nerd!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think if I was an ex of his who had good reason to think he committed the crime, that I would report him anonymously and relocate! At least for a while.

If you need to explain to LE/FBI, why you are sure, BG could be a certain person from your (ex) environment, LE would draw conclusions and your anonymity would be gone, I believe. Very tricky.

 

[Charlot123]

bbm
A previous girlfriend might be the connection to the greater Delphi area, less than a connection to grandparents/parents/relatives, who have lived there in the past. I never heard of this possibility during 4 years, although it seems reasonable to assume so, when we think of a BG in the age range 18-40 yo (perhaps in his late twenties in 2017). This poor ex-girlfriend, IF there is one, is also to be regretted in view of a very difficult decision, whether to give tips or not to LE. Who is willing to admit, that one was in a relationship with a potential murderer. Must be a nightmare, only having a reason to think about that.

Either a previous GF.

Or, sadly enough...

Both girls visited other states. Libby’s mom lives in KY, and Abby, if I am not mistaken, visited MI?

Perhaps the girls relatives living in another state might remember? Someone living on the same street, who came in when the girl visited, and later, moved? Or even visited his GF in KY, for example? Such a guy, too, could have traced the girl, even visited Delphi, unnoticed, and these connections are easily missed. (Still remembering Jessop’s situation).

 

[k-mac]

It is interesting that for a while, there were discussions about Libby’s shoe found in the driveway, but no details provided. My question would be, whose driveway?

But with time, all these shoe discussions petered out.

Last night on GHI with Kelsi she stated that she was in ear shot of them finding the shoe but couldn't physically see where the searchers where but knows the general direction they were. Which was heading off the bridge down to the left straight toward the creek. Somewhere between the bridge and creek more or less a straight line then radius out a circle perimeter around it.
So I think the private driveway that wraps around under the bridge could fall into that zone but that would be the outer edges of that radius I'm only guessing.

moo

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I think it’s a case of anyone who was associated with him, is glad he is out of their life and doesn’t want to even cross paths with him again, never mind face him in a court room.

I also think of the ‘Evil lives here’ episode on Shirley Gaskins, Donald Gaskins’ daughter. People were literally disappearing infront of her face and she only realised when she couldn’t deny it any longer that her father was killing these people. But she never went to the police.

There are a lot of different people in this world with very different morals and views. Many of us can sit here and say ‘why hasn’t anyone turned him in?’ But we don’t know what walk of life he’s from. We don’t know if he’s from a family where no living relative wants to bring up their past, or perhaps he’s from a family who believes blood is thicker than water, that you never speak to police and especially don’t ‘snitch’ on family.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the people who know/knew him have a hunch that he could be BG but I also think he’s drastically changed his appearance since the last time he saw anyone from his old life. JMO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I don’t think the girls were targeted for any other reason than coincidence, it was a crime of opportunity that had been brewing beneath the surface of this man for a long time. It’s just a heartbreaking tragedy that Abby and Libby were there at that time on that day.

I wish we knew for certain which sketch is the most accurate, they are so different that they look as though they are of 2 different people. I think maybe the second sketch could have been a younger man who was in the area at the time but was also up to no good. Perhaps not as serious crime as BG but voyeurism or drug dealing, driving a stolen car etc. So maybe he hasn’t come forward because he would have to explain what he was doing in that area on that day. All MOO

 

[goldiegirl]

I'm relatively new to this case compared to how familiar I am with others. The HLN special tonight refreshed my memory. I used to get this case confused with the Lyric and Elizabeth case. The similarities really bother me. I have a lot of catching up to do, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed at length, but:

As someone with a teenager in the family, I can't help but wonder whether or not these girls had already been talking to and expecting this man to meet up with them. The fact that Libby recorded him would lead us to think not (as in she suspected something bad was happening), but we should also keep in mind that he may have represented himself differently online (or on whatever app or social media), and they may have been expecting someone else. Perhaps they expected to meet a boy or two their own age and realized something was amiss when they saw he didn't match up.

I've just seen this play out too many times with teens finding ways to be in the same place as someone else, and I just cannot wrap my head around a predator coincidentally happening to be on that bridge at the same time as two young girls.

 

[sandy_80]

I'm relatively new to this case compared to how familiar I am with others. The HLN special tonight refreshed my memory. I used to get this case confused with the Lyric and Elizabeth case. The similarities really bother me. I have a lot of catching up to do, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed at length, but:

As someone with a teenager in the family, I can't help but wonder whether or not these girls had already been talking to and expecting this man to meet up with them. The fact that Libby recorded him would lead us to think not (as in she suspected something bad was happening), but we should also keep in mind that he may have represented himself differently online (or on whatever app or social media), and they may have been expecting someone else. Perhaps they expected to meet a boy or two their own age and realized something was amiss when they saw he didn't match up.

I've just seen this play out too many times with teens finding ways to be in the same place as someone else, and I just cannot wrap my head around a predator coincidentally happening to be on that bridge at the same time as two young girls.

this has been discussed many times.. but LE absolutely denied finding any suspicious online activity that is related to the case.. and the family insists its been a spur of a moment kind of trip..which the sole reason was for the girls to do some exploring