Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

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Who killed Abby and Libby?
There have been no arrests in the case. Several persons of interest have garnered some media interest over the years, but police later dismissed them as suspects.

'Rumors suck and they hurt people':Sister of Delphi murder victim addresses internet speculation

Police officers and family members also have complained about the rampant rumors that have circulated in the case as well as the side-by-side photos comparing actual persons to the police sketches that some people have posted on social media sites, saying such speculation doesn't help the investigation and can be harmful to others.

What do we know about the Delphi murders?
Investigators have released four bits of key evidence in the case.
Delphi murders: 4 years later, what we know in deaths of Abby and Libby
 
Good morning sweet girls. I hope and pray this year will be the year LE gets that tip to give your families some justice. I say some justice, because there isn't a punishment on earth that could be enough IMO. Not a happy Valentin's day but sending you and your family and LE love today.
 
Yemelyan said:
Just a point of clarification from that Kokomo Tribune article re: DNA. The prosecutor in that article is actually discussing two different types of DNA comparisons. Familial DNA is when investigators use a DNA sample from a crime scene and run it through local and state databases of convicted felons looking for close familial matches. The theory is, if you are a violent felon, chances are people closely related to you are also felons. This is the strategy that brought the break in the "Grim Sleeper" serial killings. The murderer's son was arrested for some other offense and had to submit DNA. Authorities were able to get a hit on his DNA as a close familial match to whoever was doing the "Grim Sleeper" killings. Familial DNA searches are not legal at the national level (so you aren't allowed to search CODIS for familial matches). There are only 10 or 11 states in which familial DNA searches are legally permitted in state databases/admissable at trial and Indiana is not one of them.

Investigative genetic genealogy is something completely different, though I can see why the confusion would arise because it involves family trees. Investigative genetic genealogy is what Parabon does...find close DNA relative matches in publicly available ancestry databases and then build out family trees to identify potential suspects which are confirmed through other investigative techniques. This is the method that found GSK/EARONS and what was used to eventually figure out who killed April Tinsley in Indiana. However, since the suspect in the Tinsley case confessed and pled guilty, essentially bypassing the trial phase, I don't think the legality of investigative genetic genealogy has yet been totally established in Indiana.

I think that colloquially people often call genetic genealogy "familial DNA" but properly speaking, the two methods are not the same and likely have different admissibility depending on the state on which the crime occurred.

All MOO
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Thank you @Yemelyan. I had no idea and that is an excellent explanation.

Also, I should note that after I posted the articles I noticed a footnote in this one. Investigation ongoing two-years after murders of Abby Williams, Libby German in Delphi | WTTV CBS4Indy

Editor's note: A previous version of this story said Parabon Nanolabs was working the Delphi case, but that is not accurate. An updated version of the story correctly states investigators in the Delphi case worked closely with those on the Tinsley case to see if their methods would be helpful.

It has been mentioned many times before here, but I have to wonder if DNA has turned up something in the investigation. Thus the NBG sketch. That “one tip” would be someone who has verifiable information that would allow LE to proceed in legally tying the DNA of a suspect to the homicide. Else, it’s not admissible evidence.

jmo
 
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MistyWaters said:
Okay, thanks. We know nobody witnessed the murder and LE has never said beyond all doubt somebody recalled seeing the killer on the trails after the bodies were discovered a day later. If any witnesses had known for sure they sighted the killer near the crime scene (wet, very dishevelled, carrying a weapon etc), I think a sketch would’ve been released much sooner. The first sketch wasn’t released until July/17, five months later and reportedly after tips began to dwindle.

As with most investigations, people come forward and report who or what they saw, then its LE who determines if the sighting is significant based on other details known to their investigation. As sketches are not photographs, it’s possible the witness involved in the younger guy sketch did in fact sight the killer but the memory of what he looks like isn’t accurate.

JMO
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I think it is possible someone did witness the murder. But they have not stepped forward, out of fear of being apprehended as an accomplice.

jmo
 
steeltowngirl said:
I think it is possible someone did witness the murder. But they have not stepped forward, out of fear of being apprehended as an accomplice.

jmo
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I think, it is possible, someone witnessed BG (and maybe an accomplice) in the vicinity of the crime scene or near a certain car, and maybe they recognized YBG (in counting 2 and 2 together). When it dawned on them, who could be/is BG, they began to fear his mental and also his monetary power as well as his many assumed supporters/connections. So possible witnesses (certainly hoping, pleading secretly for LE's success) will leave it to someone else to report details or a name. I would do the same, probably. Every man for himself, would be the (slightly immoral) motto. When the crime had happened, they couldn't help the poor girls anymore, and since then they want to help only themselves - perhaps. If there are witnesses indeed, they have no nerves left for the years of sadness of the 2 affected families German and Williams.

Maybe, ISP would also be pretty happy, if LE from another state (TX only for example) would catch BG first? Idk.
IMO
 
MistyWaters said:
That seems backward to me - witnesses to crimes come forward to avoid being wrongly accused of being an accomplice.
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The witness could have been with the killer, about to meet up with the killer for another reason, or could have been a juvenile. I can think of a number of reasons that someone connected to the killer was a witness to the crime, but fears coming forward.
 
in my opinion only, he had to observe them earlier..maybe he even saw them and went back to his car for supplies and re-entered the park...either way...because it's very clear as he crosses and comes towards them that he knows they are alone.

I think they may have broken loose and gotten away from him at a point could be why they were found where they were r maybe why they crossed the river..or he wanted them out of earshot.

if he left several signatures, those things are the identifying mark...

we have heard of all the ways SK's stalk their victims...maybe for moments..maybe for days..

many victims never knew they were being stalked.

because the killer left 3 signatures and this points to a seasoned killer, I feel like it is unlikely
that this is some friend of a friend...not impossible, but I think the nature of the crime suggests something else...Serials tend to avoid murdering people in their own circle or associated to as they want to avoid being discovered.

( except for poisoners male and female killers who poison family members etc with money being the motive). Or serial murders of spouses. ( not sexual in nature) different motives.

Abby and Libby on my mind this morning...they have really been advertising the show tonight and I hope people watch...the great thing is if its a really good doc , people can stream it and recommend it to friends and it will bring much exposure to the case!

send up prayers.

mOO
 
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steeltowngirl said:
The witness could have been with the killer, about to meet up with the killer for another reason, or could have been a juvenile. I can think of a number of reasons that someone connected to the killer was a witness to the crime, but fears coming forward.
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You wouldn't kill two girls if you were just about to meet up with someone for another reason and knew they'd soon be arriving. JMO

I just don't think anyone witnessed this.
 
Sarahlou said:
You wouldn't kill two girls if you were just about to meet up with someone for another reason and knew they'd soon be arriving. JMO

I just don't think anyone witnessed this.
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Well, I wouldn’t .. but I have no idea the mindset of the killer and the circumstances.

If the murder was unplanned, something could have escalated quickly. Think about Aaron Hernandez killing two men. Alexander Bradley was with Aaron and didn’t come forward initially as a witness.

Frankly, we don’t know enough to rule it out. Acknowledging all possibilities here.

jmo
 
Awsi Dooger said:
And as you mentioned in a prior post, that straight line requires only 4 minutes from end of bridge to crime scene. I'd say maybe slightly longer because the second stage of down the hill requires some backtracking to the left on the gravel access road. First stage is steep but hardly intimidating and certainly doable. Basically a long step and skid. Second stage is so steep and especially so many large gnarly tree roots all over the place you have to detour left 20-25 yards to avoid them. I haven't seen one video visit that didn't agree with that.

Expanding on the straight line theory, at end of this post I'd like to post a screen capture of an aerial view of the bridge area from 2005. We were tinkering around with old aerials on the Sumter County Does case last week so I thought I would switch to Delphi. One aspect caught my attention immediately. The tree cover on the near side of the creek was every bit as dense as the far side through 1998. Then something dramatic obviously happened. The next aerial from 2003 was still flush on the far side but shredded on the near side. I asked on Reddit. There were comments about diseased trees. But that wasn't drastic enough to accomplish in such a short time. Then someone mentioned flooding. Now that's logical. I took a look and found online reference to severe flooding in July 2003. It was so bad that Delphi and Deer Creek were referenced specifically, with loss of life and assertion that it was even worse than a so-called 100 year flood.

Downstream in Delphi that water would typically make the gentle curve to the right approaching the crime scene, then curve left under the bridge. But a crashing flood in that area would find wide open spaces straight ahead over the minimal bank to the left. Now I fully understood why the trees were gone and the bank so low. Whatever minimal bank had been there prior to July 2003 was all but eroded by that record flooding.

The best view was two years later from 2005, since it was taken in the dead of winter. Notice the near total lack of trees on the near side. It has filled out somewhat now but still very minimal. I tried to depict that in some photos I took. The walking path toward the creek is wide open and obvious. It would make zero sense to commit down there as opposed to crossing the creek.

Ironically the centered watermark of "HistoricalAerials.Com" covers almost the exact straight line route from end of the bridge to the crime scene. The circled copyright C on the opposite bank is almost precisely at the bodies location. I did not drag or crop to produce it. That's the way it is. But I hope an overhead like this will lessen the questions regarding why that spot was chosen. The darn lay of the land lends in that direction:

imgur.com
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All great points.

A nasty flood down there in recent times swept away a 4 y/o boy from where the creek narrows through Delphi, it happened at Riley Park.

I've stood on the banks of the creek both at just west of the bridge, and in Riley Park by the foot bridge that crosses over to an industrial property and residential area. The creek is very narrow in Delphi itself, and thus the water is high at times. I'm 5'8", and the "high water mark" by the bridge, judging by the soil and rocks around me, was right around my height. So the creek varies wildly in depth, but east of Delphi there are land features/flat areas as @Awsi Dooger pointed out where the creek is shallow, most of the time.

JMO
 
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Sarahlou said:
You wouldn't kill two girls if you were just about to meet up with someone for another reason and knew they'd soon be arriving. JMO

I just don't think anyone witnessed this.
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This is a direct quote from the statement released by ISP immediately after the April 22 2019 press conference:

“As Superintendent Carter said today, "We have a witness. You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there's no place for a heartless coward like you to hide that gets his thrill from killing little girls."

It’s up for debate I guess on what this witness actually witnessed.
I took this to be separate from the people that contributed to the first sketch. Two years later, and still no arrest...I’m sure this “witness” matters that much anymore.
 
StarryStarryNight said:
This is a direct quote from the statement released by ISP immediately after the April 22 2019 press conference:

“As Superintendent Carter said today, "We have a witness. You made mistakes. We are coming for you and there's no place for a heartless coward like you to hide that gets his thrill from killing little girls."

It’s up for debate I guess on what this witness actually witnessed.
I took this to be separate from the people that contributed to the first sketch. Two years later, and still no arrest...I’m sure this “witness” matters that much anymore.
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My guess is it's one of two things.
Either Sargent Carter was bluffing again, or he's talking about someone that saw a car parked at the welfare building.
 
FromGermany said:
I think, it is possible, someone witnessed BG (and maybe an accomplice) in the vicinity of the crime scene or near a certain car, and maybe they recognized YBG (in counting 2 and 2 together). When it dawned on them, who could be/is BG, they began to fear his mental and also his monetary power as well as his many assumed supporters/connections. So possible witnesses (certainly hoping, pleading secretly for LE's success) will leave it to someone else to report details or a name. I would do the same, probably. Every man for himself, would be the (slightly immoral) motto. When the crime had happened, they couldn't help the poor girls anymore, and since then they want to help only themselves - perhaps. If there are witnesses indeed, they have no nerves left for the years of sadness of the 2 affected families German and Williams.

Maybe, ISP would also be pretty happy, if LE from another state (TX only for example) would catch BG first? Idk.
IMO
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I would guess a tip line was/is set up where people can report things they may have witnessed anonymously.
I don't think that the ISP wants anyone but them solving this case. LE thrives on and lives for the day when they can hold that press conference where they all "want to thank" and "I'd like to thank so and so for the hard around the clock work they did when they worked so tirelessly" and "we were determined to never give up" even though the majority of the time, it's the public that solves the case.
 
I hope the case gets solved.

If the killer, at the time of the crime, ends up being from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding counties I am going to have to reexamine everything I think about geographic profiling decisions. In this case you cannot really come up with a geographic profile because there are not multiple points from which to examine. Nobody knows whether or not this person is a serial killer or what crimes could be attributed to him. But just because a case is not solved does not mean that I am wrong or that anyone else who has a theory about the case is wrong.

The best example I can give of geographic profiling is the movie, The Pledge, from 2001. Some people liked the movie. Others found it very slow moving. In my opinion, that movie is a good example of the use of geographic profiling.
 
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