Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[photographer4]

I'm reading the transcript of a podcast that I found here:

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Mike Patty said: "And then, when I talked to the buddy of mine who was in the search party that found ‘em—you know, um, something horrible had happened. I knew that. Let’s put it that way."

So the girls were found dead, and clearly that wasn't good, and would of been super upsetting for anyone at the scene, especially for those who found them, but I've also read that the searchers may not have realized what they'd stumbled upon:

(Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.) Source: Carroll County Comet.

And now I'm reading a transcript of DTH podcas and LE literally says:

DTH:
And when did you find out that this looks like foul play?

Sheriff Tobe Leazenby:
It wasn’t long after that initial call, actually. Um, I’m gonna say within—as I recall—within the hour of getting the initial one. And, um, just put a whole different twist on the whole scenario for us at that stage.

It really sounds to me like LE did not even recognize this as a crime scene until about an hour after the girls were found!!? How is this possible? With this in mind, I'm laying rest to a lot of the rumors I've read online about this case, and just going to focus on this fact. This must have been one bizzare crime scene if they couldn't even be immediately sure it was a murder.

Source:
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm reading the transcript of a podcast that I found here:

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Mike Patty said: "And then, when I talked to the buddy of mine who was in the search party that found ‘em—you know, um, something horrible had happened. I knew that. Let’s put it that way."

So the girls were found dead, and clearly that wasn't good, and would of been super upsetting for anyone at the scene, especially for those who found them, but I've also read that the searchers may not have realized what they'd stumbled upon:

(Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.) Source: Carroll County Comet.

And now I'm reading a transcript of DTH podcas and LE literally says:

DTH:
And when did you find out that this looks like foul play?

Sheriff Tobe Leazenby:
It wasn’t long after that initial call, actually. Um, I’m gonna say within—as I recall—within the hour of getting the initial one. And, um, just put a whole different twist on the whole scenario for us at that stage.

It really sounds to me like LE did not even recognize this as a crime scene until about an hour after the girls were found!!? How is this possible? With this in mind, I'm laying rest to a lot of the rumors I've read online about this case, and just going to focus on this fact. This must have been one bizzare crime scene if they couldn't even be immediately sure it was a murder.

Source:
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

I think Leazenby is responding to when he arrived at the crime scene, in about an hour, not that it took an hour for LE to recognize a homicide had taken place. He talks about it here once again. In a round about way he also appears to be discounting any “descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies” in the public domain. JMO

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. The day the girls were found, how quickly were you personally on the scene? How quickly was the crime scene secured? How many police and emergency response individuals were physically present at the crime scene? What departments were represented at scene?

A. As I recall, a very short amount of time, less than an hour. By law enforcement, immediately. I do not recall without referencing reports. Mainly Sheriff’s Office, ISP, and FBI.

Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.

 

[TL4S]

I'm reading the transcript of a podcast that I found here:

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Mike Patty said: "And then, when I talked to the buddy of mine who was in the search party that found ‘em—you know, um, something horrible had happened. I knew that. Let’s put it that way."

So the girls were found dead, and clearly that wasn't good, and would of been super upsetting for anyone at the scene, especially for those who found them, but I've also read that the searchers may not have realized what they'd stumbled upon:

(Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.) Source: Carroll County Comet.

And now I'm reading a transcript of DTH podcas and LE literally says:

DTH:
And when did you find out that this looks like foul play?

Sheriff Tobe Leazenby:
It wasn’t long after that initial call, actually. Um, I’m gonna say within—as I recall—within the hour of getting the initial one. And, um, just put a whole different twist on the whole scenario for us at that stage.

It really sounds to me like LE did not even recognize this as a crime scene until about an hour after the girls were found!!? How is this possible? With this in mind, I'm laying rest to a lot of the rumors I've read online about this case, and just going to focus on this fact. This must have been one bizzare crime scene if they couldn't even be immediately sure it was a murder.

Source:
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

I think maybe Leazenby meant he, specifically, did not know until within that hour. IMO, searchers spotted the bodies from a distance, informed LE, LE secured the area and started to call in the support teams, etc. An hour seems a reasonable time to get that all in place and for every agency involved to be notified.

In my mind, the searcher who spotted them wasn't necessarily able to see details other than enough to know they were no longer alive, or at least couldn't see from that vantage point that they had been brutally murdered (re: not know what they have come upon). I'm guessing, though, that LE knew fairly soon after their arrival to the crime scene. JMO

 

[photographer4]

I think Leazenby is responding to when he arrived at the crime scene, in about an hour, not that it took an hour for LE to recognize a homicide had taken place. He talks about it here once again. In a round about way he also appears to be discounting any “descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies” in the public domain. JMO

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. The day the girls were found, how quickly were you personally on the scene? How quickly was the crime scene secured? How many police and emergency response individuals were physically present at the crime scene? What departments were represented at scene?

A. As I recall, a very short amount of time, less than an hour. By law enforcement, immediately. I do not recall without referencing reports. Mainly Sheriff’s Office, ISP, and FBI.

Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.

Yes! This is what I meant - if it took them some time to establish it was a crime scene, and he's said searchers may not have known what they had come upon, then I think we can give up on the rumors about how the bodies may have been positioned, or things at the scene etc.

Also of note from that DTH podcast:

DTH: What is going thru your head as you’re out there?

Sgt. Kim Riley:
Well, I didn’t go up to the crime scene. There was one ridge you could actually go to, and I stood on that ridge and I could see the crime scene—and it was still two to three hundred feet away from me. I could see the crime scene but I didn’t feel—first of all, I didn’t want to go to the crime scene—I didn’t want to be somebody that would contaminate something. And that-that-that’s one of the things—why we keep people out.

But just looking at those two young girls just laying there on the ground..."

That was a really interesting quote to me that seems to confirm this crime scene was probably not how people / rumours imagine it to be! They also asked in a press conference for photos of the area, "more to just clarify what we’ve got going on out there." - (DTH podcast).

It sounds like the crime scene may have been left in a way that they couldn't be 100% sure of how the scene looked before the girls were killed and found there. They may have wanted to compare and figure out when the landscape had changed or IF it had changed at any point before the kids were found.

 

[MegPTdoc]

No I have not, I wasn’t sure how to go about that. If you have any advice for me, I’m all ears. It’s uncharted territory for me so would appreciate any thoughts on how to navigate this.

Have you contacted investigators to share your observations?

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes! This is what I meant - if it took them some time to establish it was a crime scene, and he's said searchers may not have known what they had come upon, then I think we can give up on the rumors about how the bodies may have been positioned, or things at the scene etc.

Also of note from that DTH podcast:

DTH: What is going thru your head as you’re out there?

Sgt. Kim Riley:
Well, I didn’t go up to the crime scene. There was one ridge you could actually go to, and I stood on that ridge and I could see the crime scene—and it was still two to three hundred feet away from me. I could see the crime scene but I didn’t feel—first of all, I didn’t want to go to the crime scene—I didn’t want to be somebody that would contaminate something. And that-that-that’s one of the things—why we keep people out.

But just looking at those two young girls just laying there on the ground..."

That was a really interesting quote to me that seems to confirm this crime scene was probably not how people / rumours imagine it to be! They also asked in a press conference for photos of the area, "more to just clarify what we’ve got going on out there." - (DTH podcast).

It sounds like the crime scene may have been left in a way that they couldn't be 100% sure of how the scene looked before the girls were killed and found there. They may have wanted to compare and figure out when the landscape had changed or IF it had changed at any point before the kids were found.

Very true, it also creates some doubt regarding the reporter’s alleged sighting of “girls clothing” found in the river, whether or not it’s connected.

 

[photographer4]

Is it possible that in working with the audio they have that the voice of BG has been altered in some way? Would that maybe account for why no one has said its X?

 

[JustAnotherJD]

Question for LE or Lawyers etc. -

IF LE has a POI and wants DNA from him, would they need a search warrant to get it? If they go to him and ask for it, I assume he can say No, right? Then they would need to get the search warrant and they would need probable cause for that, right? Which would tip him off and that info wouldn’t be made public so they might not attempt it, right? Can someone please explain this. Thanks.

Also, is it possible they’ve gotten other search warrants and have searched other houses than the 2 we know about but the public just does not know that yet?

First off, I have no inside knowledge about this case or this area, but yes a search warrant would be required to collect DNA without consent from an individual. To get a warrant the police would need probable cause. Additionally, police are prohibited from "general warrants," which specific to this case means that police will need a warrant based on probable cause for each individual they wish to collect DNA from. They cannot just get one warrant for all men within the area. They can solicit consent from people without a warrant, but they cannot coerce consent. The only way to compel a DNA swab without a warrant would be to collect it as part of the intake process following a lawful arrest.

Now, it is possible to apply for/obtain a search warrant without it becoming public. For instance, police need a warrant to tap a suspect's phone, and obviously a wire tap would not be very effective if the suspect knows the phone is tapped, so yes search warrants may be kept quiet when needed/justified. However, I think that in this case it is unlikely that the police would be able to actually execute a search warrant to search a physical premises without people in the community noticing that a search was happening and reporting it to news outlets. Also, the majority of search warrants for residences are required to be executed during the day. A particularized showing of need is required in order to obtain a warrant to be executed at night. Therefore it is also unlikely that a secret search has been conducted under cover of night.

 

[MistyWaters]

Is it possible that in working with the audio they have that the voice of BG has been altered in some way? Would that maybe account for why no one has said its X?

Recorded voices, especially if Libby’s cellphone was in her pocket and not knowing the distance, probably does not sound exactly the same as a person-to-person voice. The voice may also sound quite different depending on the audio capability of each listener’s device as well. When I hear the four words, I can’t say anything strikes me as particularly unique or distinct. But it was a best shot by LE, can’t blame them for going with what they have.

 

[Marzipan]

My impression was that the things they are still following into could be visual items, not audible ones. Perhaps they are trying to refine height estimates, brand of shoes, brand of coat, gait analysis, etc. I know they aren't working with much detail in the image though.

That’s how I interpreted it. I hadn’t even thought about the audio when he said that.

 

[Marzipan]

So was Tobe saying that if said POI was incarcerated the list would get smaller?
My pea brain cannot think of what one specific piece of the puzzle they need that has anything to do with someone going to jail/prison. Unless it’s a DNA match they’re looking for. mOO.

Anyone care to share their opinion about this?
Also, @Marzipan, tysm for going back to listen AND transcribe it for us!!!! <3 high five!

I think he just meant that they haven’t solved and wrapped up the crime yet. I’ve heard him say something like this before when asked about regrets, so that’s why I interpreted it that way. But...your question about that part (“But again I still fall back on, you know, no one, no one is incarcerated -- at this point so I can't totally say okay we are done with this individual and we go on to the next one.”) ...makes me wonder if he is letting it slip that perhaps none of his POIs are currently in jail at all. We have all wondered about some individuals who are incarcerated for other crimes. And he doesn’t say “for this crime.”
I’m maybe getting too technical here. I have long hoped that this person is already locked up or dead so they don’t do this again.

 

[Falling Down]

@Barbieshell One thing that isn't well conveyed about the bridge from pictures (some of the ones posted from users here have shown this, though) is that after it crosses over the water near the north end, it carries on for quite a distance over land. So when they went "down the hill" at the south end they weren't immediately right on the creek bank.

All good info in that post.

The media and even people involved with the case have made references to what the distance is from the bridge to where the gitls were found, and they're way off. It's under 3/8 of a mile from the NW end, and around 500 feet give or take from the SE end. People make it sound like there was a long, agonizing march of sort or another with this set of crimes. It was a short walk from the bridge to the CS.

Let this be the year we get a break in this case.

JMO

 

[GreyGardens]

I’m getting dizzy reading about the sketches. You read one thing and it seems settled. You read the next and it’s not!

They are not the same person.

-While both sketches were drawn in 2017, police clarified that the renderings are "not the same person." Source-IndyStar

-“The original sketch – released in the summer of 2017, showing a man with a goatee and a driving cap is not presently a person of interest in this investigation.” -Sergent Riley interview 2019 Source-JCOnline

They are a mix of the same person.

-A sketch is not a photograph it s a resemblance. The likelihood of this being something between the two sketches is probably pretty strong, -Carter interview 2019 Source-Wish-TV

-"Remember a sketch isn’t a photograph. I believe this murderer is going to have similar characteristics from both sketches. It is only a sketch it is not a photograph so stay away from a narrow focus of what you see in the face" -Carter interview in 2020 Source-Indiana State Police Information Channel

-"the sketches we have, obviously, are not photographs. They are what a person remembers. And I believe that when an arrest is made — and I still think that will happen, that we’ll be able to lay those two sketches over one another and remove them and find the face of the killer." Carter interview in 2021 Source-Crimelights

-Then there’s the podcast with Jim Clemente who said the first sketch was of a sex offender from Delphi area, and he was arrested and cleared? Never heard that except on this podcast. MOO, I don’t believe this. I think there was confusion or wires crossed.

 

[Yemelyan]

I’m getting dizzy reading about the sketches. You read one thing and it seems settled. You read the next and it’s not!

They are not the same person.

-While both sketches were drawn in 2017, police clarified that the renderings are "not the same person." Source-IndyStar

-“The original sketch – released in the summer of 2017, showing a man with a goatee and a driving cap is not presently a person of interest in this investigation.” -Sergent Riley interview 2019 Source-JCOnline

They are a mix of the same person.

-A sketch is not a photograph it s a resemblance. The likelihood of this being something between the two sketches is probably pretty strong, -Carter interview 2019 Source-Wish-TV

-"Remember a sketch isn’t a photograph. I believe this murderer is going to have similar characteristics from both sketches. It is only a sketch it is not a photograph so stay away from a narrow focus of what you see in the face" -Carter interview in 2020 Source-Indiana State Police Information Channel

-"the sketches we have, obviously, are not photographs. They are what a person remembers. And I believe that when an arrest is made — and I still think that will happen, that we’ll be able to lay those two sketches over one another and remove them and find the face of the killer." Carter interview in 2021 Source-Crimelights

-Then there’s the podcast with Jim Clemente who said the first sketch was of a sex offender from Delphi area, and he was arrested and cleared? Never heard that except on this podcast. MOO, I don’t believe this. I think there was confusion or wires crossed.

I definitely think there were wires crossed on the Jim Clemente info about the now secondary sketch.

 

[No it's not]

I'm reading the transcript of a podcast that I found here:

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Mike Patty said: "And then, when I talked to the buddy of mine who was in the search party that found ‘em—you know, um, something horrible had happened. I knew that. Let’s put it that way."

So the girls were found dead, and clearly that wasn't good, and would of been super upsetting for anyone at the scene, especially for those who found them, but I've also read that the searchers may not have realized what they'd stumbled upon:

(Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.) Source: Carroll County Comet.

And now I'm reading a transcript of DTH podcas and LE literally says:

DTH:
And when did you find out that this looks like foul play?

Sheriff Tobe Leazenby:
It wasn’t long after that initial call, actually. Um, I’m gonna say within—as I recall—within the hour of getting the initial one. And, um, just put a whole different twist on the whole scenario for us at that stage.

It really sounds to me like LE did not even recognize this as a crime scene until about an hour after the girls were found!!? How is this possible? With this in mind, I'm laying rest to a lot of the rumors I've read online about this case, and just going to focus on this fact. This must have been one bizzare crime scene if they couldn't even be immediately sure it was a murder.

Source:
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

This! They did not even classify it as a homicide during the very first PC after the bodies had been found!
Watch this PC marker 5:43ff, TL being asked, if he had classified it as a homicide..

-Nin

 

[No it's not]

My take on TL's hesitation in the PC and on his comment..:

Were the victims possibly being positioned (and equipped?) in a way to make it look like a murder suicide?

All IMO

-Nin

 

[TheVisual]

My take on TL's hesitation in the PC and on his comment..:

Were the victims possibly being positioned (and equipped?) in a way to make it look like a murder suicide?

All IMO

-Nin

Glad to see you back Nin.

 

[janewall]

My take on TL's hesitation in the PC and on his comment..:

Were the victims possibly being positioned (and equipped?) in a way to make it look like a murder suicide?

All IMO

-Nin

Strangely enough, I had the same train of thought today. The Sheriff's words about an odd crime scene that wasn't what it first appeared is clearly ricocheting around in our brains. Now if only our ruminations could lead to a plausible suspect!

Maybe this kind of free association of words and thoughts is what TL hopes will happen with someone who actually knows the murderer and understands what makes them tick.

 

[MistyWaters]

This! They did not even classify it as a homicide during the very first PC after the bodies had been found!
Watch this PC marker 5:43ff, TL being asked, if he had classified it as a homicide..

-Nin

Stretching my memory back to those early days, I recall it was later clarified by LE how they weren’t allowed to announce the deaths as homicides during that PC because the Coroner’s Report hadn’t yet been signed off.

To confirm that would require searching the threads but I do remember this has been discussed before.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, early on they made at least a couple dozen arrests on unrelated charges - drugs, mostly - while investigating tips about Abby & Libby. (They even managed to get a cold case murder confession in Logansport via a tip.) Lots of drugs in Delphi, which was conveniently ignored by HLN.

So how would these arrests prompt people to come forward? What if someone was cooking meth next to MHB and heard/saw what happened. But he/she is afraid that they will be the whole

My take on TL's hesitation in the PC and on his comment..:

Were the victims possibly being positioned (and equipped?) in a way to make it look like a murder suicide?

All IMO

-Nin

I wonder if it was a Mayerling-type murder/suicide scene. When one girl looked as if she accidentally died, and the other, subsequently committed suicide. But IRL, both were killed and posed.

If so - what devious mind could have thought of it?