Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[Detective Willy]

In episode 10 of "Down the Hill: The Delphi Murders" Tobe Leazenby says (8 minutes 30 mark) the canine unit was on the way from Missouri but once they found the girls, they cancelled the canine unit.

Very good summation. What was the reason they canceled the canine unit, if the girls had yet to be found?

 

[news buff]

The canine unit that was en route was trained to find living people and the idea was that the canines would track the girls (whose whereabouts were still unknown). However, before the dogs arrived, the girls were found dead. It's my understanding from the HLN Down the Hill episode that a decision was made that there was no longer a need to track a living person. Later it was realized that IF the canines could have tracked the perpetrator's route from the area, that would have been useful information. Key word being "if." It's unknown if this would have been successful. Leazenby cited this as one of his regrets about the handling of the crime. According to the Carroll County Comet Q&A, as of February 2021 investigators still don't know exactly how the killer left the area. Theories have been developed but nothing is 100% certain at this time.

Did Leazenby make the call to cancel the dogs? Was any Family input involved?

 

[news buff]

This is a quote from First Sargent Jerry Holeman back in 2017 about the DNA in the case.

"The question is: Do we have DNA? Yea, we have DNA. We're just still working on determining what kind of DNA. Is it the victims? Is it the known family members or is it our suspect?" said Holeman.

He said detectives test and compare the DNA almost daily, hoping it leads them to the killer.

"We're still working on that," Holeman said. "We can't say, 'Do we have the suspect's DNA or don't we?' We have plenty of DNA, and we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time."


Police open up about evidence 6 months after Delphi double homicide

 

[SMK777]

Regarding LE’s regrets about calling off the canine search because the dogs may have tracked BG:

As it was already Feb 14 near noon, it seems with all those searchers from 2/13-14 that the dogs would have had a very hard time differentiating the scents?

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Grissom - can you tell us exactly how long does all of testing take? Or even an approximate amount of time that this, “we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time.", is?

“We're still working on that," Holeman said. "We can't say, 'Do we have the suspect's DNA or don't we?' We have plenty of DNA, and we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time."
Police open up about evidence 6 months after Delphi double homicide

 

[JnRyan]

This is a quote from First Sargent Jerry Holeman back in 2017 about the DNA in the case.

"The question is: Do we have DNA? Yea, we have DNA. We're just still working on determining what kind of DNA. Is it the victims? Is it the known family members or is it our suspect?" said Holeman.

He said detectives test and compare the DNA almost daily, hoping it leads them to the killer.

"We're still working on that," Holeman said. "We can't say, 'Do we have the suspect's DNA or don't we?' We have plenty of DNA, and we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time."


Police open up about evidence 6 months after Delphi double homicide

Wow! I missed that article. In a Fox59 interview about that same time he refused to acknowledge they had DNA and at the CrimeCon a year later he stated that he would neither confirm nor deny that they had DNA. Not the killer's DNA, but ANY DNA. I haven't seen or heard from Holeman since late 2018 or very early 2019. I don't believe he was even at the 2 year press conference. It seems the face of the investigation now is Sheriff Leazenby and some quotes from ISP Superintendent Carter. Nothing from an ISP investigator or an ISP spokesperson (since Sgt Kim Riley retired). I do know that I listened to a podcast this last fall that had an interview with Kelsi German and she stated was interviewed by all new team from ISP in Sept 2020.

 

[JnRyan]

While I'd love to see LE release more info, I don't really know what could possibly be released that would help someone ID the killer and call LE. The cause of death is not something I see helping in that regard. (Although in the Karen Swift murder case the COD was later revealed. I don't think it helped there either, though.) No significant video or audio, per LE, is left. I would be concerned that revealing the 'signatures' not only wouldn't help someone ID the killer, but maybe, if this was a serial killer, cause them to change. Of course, I, like everyone else, has no clue what evidence outside of DNA and possibly partial fingerprint that LE really has. Maybe, if LE has video from the nearby storage facility of the car parked at the CPS building.

Maybe this is why there have been no more PC's since 2019. If there is nothing else to be shown to the public, what does LE have to say other than here we are again. The HLN special was probably as good - or better - a substitute for an annual PC.

 

[Justice101]

I think they were wishy washy early on in the investigation on whether they had DNA so that the killer (if following the case closely) would not be tipped off.

My personal opinion (or maybe its just hope) is that they have a decent amount of DNA that they recovered. They've cleared all of the people they have tested and therefore it is unknown DNA with a better than average chance it is of the killer's.

If the perpetrator is not in the DNA crime database, "all they need is a name" is quite literally, all they need. If they get a name, find him and then either ask for a DNA sample OR go undercover and go thru his trash, cigarette butts, etc... then that's all they need. In my opinion, getting a DNA match would push the investigation into finding his phone records, whereabouts, etc. and everything then would start to get researched and fall into place to put together a case.

just my 2 cents' worth

 

[SMK777]

I think they were wishy washy early on in the investigation on whether they had DNA so that the killer (if following the case closely) would not be tipped off.

My personal opinion (or maybe its just hope) is that they have a decent amount of DNA that they recovered. They've cleared all of the people they have tested and therefore it is unknown DNA with a better than average chance it is of the killer's.

If the perpetrator is not in the DNA crime database, "all they need is a name" is quite literally, all they need. If they get a name, find him and then either ask for a DNA sample OR go undercover and go thru his trash, cigarette butts, etc... then that's all they need. In my opinion, getting a DNA match would push the investigation into finding his phone records, whereabouts, etc. and everything then would start to get researched and fall into place to put together a case.

just my 2 cents' worth

Excellent point. Hadn’t occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Wow! I missed that article. In a Fox59 interview about that same time he refused to acknowledge they had DNA and at the CrimeCon a year later he stated that he would neither confirm nor deny that they had DNA. Not the killer's DNA, but ANY DNA. I haven't seen or heard from Holeman since late 2018 or very early 2019. I don't believe he was even at the 2 year press conference. It seems the face of the investigation now is Sheriff Leazenby and some quotes from ISP Superintendent Carter. Nothing from an ISP investigator or an ISP spokesperson (since Sgt Kim Riley retired). I do know that I listened to a podcast this last fall that had an interview with Kelsi German and she stated was interviewed by all new team from ISP in Sept 2020.

It looks like this may be Sgt. Holeman seated between the man standing in yellow and the tripod at the April 22, 2019 Press Conference.
'Only a coward would do such a thing': Police release new info in Delphi murders

 

[MistyWaters]

This is a quote from First Sargent Jerry Holeman back in 2017 about the DNA in the case.

"The question is: Do we have DNA? Yea, we have DNA. We're just still working on determining what kind of DNA. Is it the victims? Is it the known family members or is it our suspect?" said Holeman.

He said detectives test and compare the DNA almost daily, hoping it leads them to the killer.

"We're still working on that," Holeman said. "We can't say, 'Do we have the suspect's DNA or don't we?' We have plenty of DNA, and we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time."


Police open up about evidence 6 months after Delphi double homicide

Sgt Holeman accompanied the family at CrimeCon a year ago.

Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights
“Becky Patty (Liberty German’s grandmother), Mike Patty (Liberty German’s grandfather), Anna Williams (Abby Williams’ mother) and Sergeant Jerry Holeman (District Investigative Commander at Indiana State Police and FBI National Academy graduate), were guests.”

 

[Yemelyan]

It looks like this may be Sgt. Holeman seated between the man standing in yellow and the tripod at the April 22, 2019 Press Conference.
'Only a coward would do such a thing': Police release new info in Delphi murders

Thank you! I can only post this info so many times. Great to have this documented by a moderator.

 

[JnRyan]

Sgt Holeman accompanied the family at CrimeCon a year ago.

Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights
“Becky Patty (Liberty German’s grandmother), Mike Patty (Liberty German’s grandfather), Anna Williams (Abby Williams’ mother) and Sergeant Jerry Holeman (District Investigative Commander at Indiana State Police and FBI National Academy graduate), were guests.”

Wow! First time I've seen a transcript and Holeman says,
" That’s a great question. We will not deny nor confirm whether or not we have DNA. But, I think the public realizes that with a crime like this very, very rarely do we not come up with DNA. But, without going into great detail, I will tell you this. We have utilized every resource available. If the evidence is there, we will reach out to the DNA people that the, ah, what is the word you used?"

 

[JnRyan]

It looks like this may be Sgt. Holeman seated between the man standing in yellow and the tripod at the April 22, 2019 Press Conference.
'Only a coward would do such a thing': Police release new info in Delphi murders

That's the first time I've seen that angle. All of the others I've seen was straight on to ISP Superintendent Carter and none of the others outside of Sheriff Leazenby were really seen.

 

[news buff]

Sgt. Holeman is also a middle school wrestling coach, or at least he was. An impressive individual.

 

[Falling Down]

I was just watching a news clip from April of this year on the Missy Bevers case. The police chief states they've received over 3,000 tips. This is a nationally covered case with video of the killer and they've got 3K tips in 5 years. With 4 years here LE has over 50,000 tips. If only 5% appear to be worth following up that amount is almost equal to the total tips in the Bevers case. And I imagine the number of tips LE have looked into is much greater than 5%. If new investigators are assigned and they decide to start from the beginning that is going to be a massive undertaking.

I still believe that when an arrest is made the killer will be found to be the subject of a tip or tips. Maybe a DNA sample didn't make it to the lab or failed to be tested. Maybe a miscommunication between original investigators led to an alibi not being verified. With 50K tips it is lot easier for a mistake to be buried.

Lately this is pretty much where I'm at, per your great post.

I'm of the opinion they've been quiet because they had to sift through a lot of tips since early in the case, and then another flood of tips from late April 2019 to the present. What they do with tips that may seem pertinent to the case is anyone's guess, but on my end I'd imagine sealed warrants for surveillance would be in order. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is where LE are at right now.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Lately this is pretty much where I'm at, per your great post.

I'm of the opinion they've been quiet because they had to sift through a lot of tips since early in the case, and then another flood of tips from late April 2019 to the present. What they do with tips that may seem pertinent to the case is anyone's guess, but on my end I'd imagine sealed warrants for surveillance would be in order. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is where LE are at right now.

JMO

In episode 10 of Down the Hill ("Four Years"), when reporter MacDonald caught up with the current prosecutor, he didn't want to say much about the current case - except he did say explicitly that they are still actively applying for warrants (this would have been around the beginning of 2021). So what you suggest could very well be taking place, and I hope it is.

Chapter 10: Four Years - Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders - Omny.fm

 

[Ozoner]

Lately this is pretty much where I'm at, per your great post.

I'm of the opinion they've been quiet because they had to sift through a lot of tips since early in the case, and then another flood of tips from late April 2019 to the present. What they do with tips that may seem pertinent to the case is anyone's guess, but on my end I'd imagine sealed warrants for surveillance would be in order. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is where LE are at right now.

JMO

Sealed warrants for surveillance would suggest that they have viable suspects, which I don't believe is the case.

 

[Charlot123]

It seems like maybe some of us are confusing crime scene details with relevant/helpful info.

I can definitely see both sides on this but I believe that letting people know when or if something is no longer an issue or contains any relevance would be a smarter thing so people aren't wasting police time and resources. It's akin to letting someone be known as a suspect when they have no involvement.

My theory, some details of the CS are so unusual, that they don’t match anything the LE yet have. Once they get that information, they will know 100%. But they haven’t received it yet. Asking for help, essentially, means asking for tips.

 

[JnRyan]

On the serial killer aspect. I'm currently listening to a VI on Colonial Parkway Murders case, Bill Thomas, and the podcast he co-hosts. In the 04 March 2021 episode on a Q&A on those murders he addresses a question on why serial killers supposedly stop. (About 15 minutes into the episode.) He shares what he has learned from LE and profilers. It seems there is shift in the LE, particularly the FBI, away from a SK having a particular type of victim or environment they stalk their victims in. They tend to believe now it is more focused on opportunity. IOW, a SK that might prefer 20 something or 30 something year old females might not walk away from an opportunity with a younger or older victim if it presents itself.

BONUS Colonial Parkway Murders Evidence Listener Questions Answered (Part 2) by Mind Over Murder • A podcast on Anchor

How might affect how I look at this case? IF - and that is a big IF - this is a SK, could his previous victims be women in their residences or runaway/homeless women in the past but coming across two younger victims in a place he found he had an opportunity, might he attack? If the focus is on double child murders like Evansdale or even single murders/abductions of 13-15 yo girls could this be unduly restricting ourselves? By a different set of circumstances, could his so-called 'signatures' be unique to this crime scene and not at his other crime scenes?

Of course, there is a strong possibility this killer hasn't killed before or since. Then again, just because there isn't what is commonly thought of a pattern, doesn't mean there isn't a SK involved. I've got to believe that LE here has searched other cases. But with some errors or omissions in Uniform Crime Reporting, ViCAP system and untested rape kits, his trail might be there. It's just not obvious or available.

Just thinking out loud. Your opinion might vary.