Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #138

[AC4RD]

.... to be a good POI, what keeps bothering me is Libby's video/audio. If BG was someone she knew, why secretly record him? Why did her and Abby not refer to him by name? LE said the girls participated in girl talk and mention "the man". Did she say his name? I don't think BG was known to either girl. JMO

Agree, JMHO and MOOOOoooo. This is one of the many questions I have about the whole investigation. A couple of days ago I started writing down things I don't know that I'd like to know. LE certainly knows some of these but they're confidential. Other people certainly know some and suspect others. These are all things I don't know. (I think.) I asked Tricia yesterday if it were OK to share my list, and if OK, should I put the questions in a post, or a link. Here's the link; I haven't had a response yet and hope this is OK:

Delphi – Kuzenski Central

 

[JnRyan]

Agree, JMHO and MOOOOoooo. This is one of the many questions I have about the whole investigation. A couple of days ago I started writing down things I don't know that I'd like to know. LE certainly knows some of these but they're confidential. Other people certainly know some and suspect others. These are all things I don't know. (I think.) I asked Tricia yesterday if it were OK to share my list, and if OK, should I put the questions in a post, or a link. Here's the link; I haven't had a response yet and hope this is OK:

Delphi – Kuzenski Central

I like this list. Very comprehensive. Some of these I’ve brought up before and recently.
I see a three that have been answered by LE:

Was BG aware that Libby had a cellphone?
This was addressed by ISP 1st Sgt Holeman in a short interview by Fox59. I only saw the interview a few times and have not been able to find it since. It was not part of the August 2017 interview or the CrimeCon interview. Holeman stated – and only his opinion – that he didn’t believe the killer knew of or had realized the significance of the cell phone.

Why did LE say it was “abandoned” rather than “parked?”
ISP clarified this shortly after the PC:
UPDATED: New Sketch, Video And Audio Of Delphi Murder Suspect Released
ISP Superintendent Carter made 2 mistakes when talking about the car. One, he gave the date as 14 Feb when he meant 13 Feb. And his poorly worded statement made it sound like the car was abandoned when he intended to say the ‘abandoned CPS building’. It seems like no one wants to address the vehicle or the area further. Was this spot used by others using the trail in the past?

Did LE find BG’s post-murder escape route? Was evidence recovered there? Were tracking dogs used leading away from the crime scene?
Sheriff Leazenby addressed this in the HLN program this last February. He stated they don’t know the killer’s escape route. He had dogs being brought in but when the girls were found he canceled that request. I believe he stated he regretted that decision.

And then there is this unanswered question you bring up: Did anybody at the trail/bridge see L&A after KG dropped them off?
I’ve never heard it asked or brought up anywhere. I find it interesting, if not odd, that we have witnesses who provide descriptions for sketches and yet did anyone see Abigail and Liberty on the trail after they were dropped off? I suppose it doesn’t help that Kelsie chose to drop them off at the small parking area off Rt 300 rather than at the main parking lot. That parking area is no longer available.

 

[AC4RD]

I
Was BG aware that Libby had a cellphone?
This was addressed by ISP 1st Sgt Holeman i
Why did LE say it was “abandoned” rather than “parked?”
ISP clarified this shortly after the PC:

(edit to repair massive quote mistak)Very good, and thank you, Brother Ryan! (Or Sister Rankin, as the case may be.) (Or 'Don't lock me into your paternalistic binary relationship!' Ryan. These days it's hard to tell.) Anyway, three of my questions answered! Thanks! --ken

 

[AC4RD]

Did anybody at the trail/bridge see L&A after KG dropped them off?

I’ve never heard it asked or brought up anywhere. I find it interesting, if not odd, that we have witnesses who provide descriptions for sketches and yet did anyone see Abigail and Liberty on the trail after they were dropped off? I suppose it doesn’t help that Kelsie chose to drop them off at the small parking area off Rt 300 rather than at the main parking lot. That parking area is no longer available.

Thank you for bringing that up. That's a really odd thing NOT to have asked about, so I'm guessing Law Enforcement has looked into the question and brought up as much evidence as they could. It seems like a fairly important question to me. JMHO

 

[TTF14]

And then there is this unanswered question you bring up: Did anybody at the trail/bridge see L&A after KG dropped them off?
I’ve never heard it asked or brought up anywhere. I find it interesting, if not odd, that we have witnesses who provide descriptions for sketches and yet did anyone see Abigail and Liberty on the trail after they were dropped off? I suppose it doesn’t help that Kelsie chose to drop them off at the small parking area off Rt 300 rather than at the main parking lot. That parking area is no longer available.

rsbm

Million dollar question.

 

[minazoe]

what is the implication? what if no one saw the girls? do you think some part of the scenario is not as it seems?

 

[JnRyan]

what is the implication? what if no one saw the girls? do you think some part of the scenario is not as it seems?

For me it is this: Is it possible that no one - other than the killer - saw the girls from the time Kelsie dropped them off till they were found the next day? If so, why? Too few others on the trail at that time? So if this is true, could it also be possible that the killer was on the trails that day and only seen by Abigail and Liberty? That is, no witnesses saw him either. Given the confusion between two differing sketches, could we have sketches of innocent persons who just didn't come forward for a number of reasons. They live outside the area and paid no attention to the news, their driver's license is suspended or restricted (think RL and what he went through), there is warrant out for them for other reasons (again, think RL), they called in sick to work that day and didn't want their employer or school to know or believing they didn't see anything of consequence they simply don't want to be involved. The 24 April 2019 ISP press release stated that the person in the first released sketch was no longer a person of interest. Multi-Agency Taskforce Clarifies Points about the Delphi Murder Suspect Sketches

But this is just how I view this.

 

[JnRyan]

(edit to repair massive quote mistak)Very good, and thank you, Brother Ryan! (Or Sister Rankin, as the case may be.) (Or 'Don't lock me into your paternalistic binary relationship!' Ryan. These days it's hard to tell.) Anyway, three of my questions answered! Thanks! --ken

It would be Brother, Brother.

 

[racer308d]

For me it is this: Is it possible that no one - other than the killer - saw the girls from the time Kelsie dropped them off till they were found the next day? If so, why? Too few others on the trail at that time? So if this is true, could it also be possible that the killer was on the trails that day and only seen by Abigail and Liberty? That is, no witnesses saw him either. Given the confusion between two differing sketches, could we have sketches of innocent persons who just didn't come forward for a number of reasons. They live outside the area and paid no attention to the news, their driver's license is suspended or restricted (think RL and what he went through), there is warrant out for them for other reasons (again, think RL), they called in sick to work that day and didn't want their employer or school to know or believing they didn't see anything of consequence they simply don't want to be involved. The 24 April 2019 ISP press release stated that the person in the first released sketch was no longer a person of interest. Multi-Agency Taskforce Clarifies Points about the Delphi Murder Suspect Sketches

But this is just how I view this.

This is something to think about. One of the things that gets me about this horrific crime is how quickly it seems to have transpired. The girls were dropped off around 1:35, Libby posted to Snapchat at 2:07; and then...? Little over an hour later, Libby's phone rings unanswered.

Edited to fix spelling

 

[heartgoesout]

For me it is this: Is it possible that no one - other than the killer - saw the girls from the time Kelsie dropped them off till they were found the next day? If so, why? Too few others on the trail at that time? So if this is true, could it also be possible that the killer was on the trails that day and only seen by Abigail and Liberty? That is, no witnesses saw him either. Given the confusion between two differing sketches, could we have sketches of innocent persons who just didn't come forward for a number of reasons. They live outside the area and paid no attention to the news, their driver's license is suspended or restricted (think RL and what he went through), there is warrant out for them for other reasons (again, think RL), they called in sick to work that day and didn't want their employer or school to know or believing they didn't see anything of consequence they simply don't want to be involved. The 24 April 2019 ISP press release stated that the person in the first released sketch was no longer a person of interest. Multi-Agency Taskforce Clarifies Points about the Delphi Murder Suspect Sketches

But this is just how I view this.

IMO If you study the timeline and who was where at what time, there is no way a few didn't see each other.
BG is not a phantom. IMO
No one is. IMO
Study the timeline. IMO
Write it down if you have to, draw color coded stick people. Or seek out those who have already done this work. IMO

 

[JnRyan]

IMO If you study the timeline and who was where at what time, there is no way a few didn't see each other.
BG is not a phantom. IMO
No one is. IMO
Study the timeline. IMO
Write it down if you have to, draw color coded stick people. Or seek out those who have already done this work. IMO

This is the closest thing I've found to a comprehensive timeline. The writer backs it up with media footnotes.
https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline
No where does the writer have any reference to someone who stated they saw the girls on the trail. Of course, this doesn't mean for sure no one saw them because LE might have told such witnesses to not say anything. But after 4.5 years no witnesses have said anything? We have one person calling into Gray Hughes about where the DNA was found and GH is a reference we're allowed to use. The grandparents talk on GH about FSG and what he told Liberty's father. And yet no witnesses talk about seeing the girls.

The timeline also doesn't mention who saw the person or persons in the sketches, but we know there is just from the existence of such sketches and multiple witnesses based on LE statements. From the standpoint of the sources of the sketches I understand their reluctance in coming forward as they don't want the killer to know their identity.

 

[FromGermany1]

If the girls indeed were not seen by anybody, they had perhaps disappeared at the time. BUT how was it possible, to get them back to the area (alive or dead), although by night still searchers were underway?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If the girls indeed were not seen by anybody, they had perhaps disappeared at the time. BUT how was it possible, to get them back to the area (alive or dead), although by night still searchers were underway?

LE has said the girls were killed where they were found. They were not taken somewhere else and brought back.
I have been critical of the investigation and police withholding information, but I believe they are right about this.

 

[heartgoesout]

This is the closest thing I've found to a comprehensive timeline. The writer backs it up with media footnotes.
https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline
No where does the writer have any reference to someone who stated they saw the girls on the trail. Of course, this doesn't mean for sure no one saw them because LE might have told such witnesses to not say anything. But after 4.5 years no witnesses have said anything? We have one person calling into Gray Hughes about where the DNA was found and GH is a reference we're allowed to use. The grandparents talk on GH about FSG and what he told Liberty's father. And yet no witnesses talk about seeing the girls.

The timeline also doesn't mention who saw the person or persons in the sketches, but we know there is just from the existence of such sketches and multiple witnesses based on LE statements. From the standpoint of the sources of the sketches I understand their reluctance in coming forward as they don't want the killer to know their identity.

Unofficial timelines if you will.

 

[AC4RD]

IMO If you study the timeline and who was where at what time, there is no way a few didn't see each other. ... Study the timeline. IMO
Write it down if you have to, draw color coded stick people. Or seek out those who have already done this work. IMO

This is good! But I haven't found a good comprehensive list of who was where, when, and why. Do you know one? And JnRyan, thank you for the 'actus' site--VERY good presentation of information. I just wish I could find one that lists everybody who was at the trails from, say, noon to 5pm.

The more I think about this, the more I think there's nothing useful I can determine from what I know. I don't blame LE for not releasing more information--if THEY can't identifying BG with the information they have, then I'm definitely not going to come up with any reasonable suppositions with the little i know.

Also, when I try to think that hard, smoke comes out my ears and my eyes bug out. Same thing in school. "Calculus? I think I'll take Home Ec instead." ;-)

 

[heartgoesout]

This is good! But I haven't found a good comprehensive list of who was where, when, and why. Do you know one? And JnRyan, thank you for the 'actus' site--VERY good presentation of information. I just wish I could find one that lists everybody who was at the trails from, say, noon to 5pm.

The more I think about this, the more I think there's nothing useful I can determine from what I know. I don't blame LE for not releasing more information--if THEY can't identifying BG with the information they have, then I'm definitely not going to come up with any reasonable suppositions with the little i know.

Also, when I try to think that hard, smoke comes out my ears and my eyes bug out. Same thing in school. "Calculus? I think I'll take Home Ec instead." ;-)

Heads shouldn't hurt trying to get a simple timeline of who was there and when. That's the point I've been trying to drive home. The timelines are out there, you have to be willing to look. IMO and

 

[AC4RD]

Heads shouldn't hurt trying to get a simple timeline of who was there and when. That's the point I've been trying to drive home. The timelines are out there, you have to be willing to look. IMO and

Yes, HGO, i get the basic problem. There are some good timelines out there--the GH "flow of the scene" video, and the actus site JnRyan told me about. But that list of WHO was at the trails that day: I can't find that. If you know one, please let me know--there are too many figures in this investigation for me to know most of them.

And I think the reason my head hurts when I think too hard is that I was dropped on the head a lot when I was a baby. ;-) I think my mom liked the gentle musical "clang" sound when I hit.

 

[Charlot123]

If the girls indeed were not seen by anybody, they had perhaps disappeared at the time. BUT how was it possible, to get them back to the area (alive or dead), although by night still searchers were underway?

If the girls were not seen by anyone, they might have been dropped off at the bridge, and gone elsewhere. Is it possible? Someone could be even waiting for them already, at the dropping spot, or close to it.

 

[Charlot123]

.

my feeling is this immature faux criminal mastermind was using the symbols of prison tattoo art and gang culture with absolutely no religious faith or understanding of religion..

if he did stage with christian symbols he just wanted to make himself look deep and create a movie scene for all to ponder.

this guy is an idiot and I don't think church has one thing to do with it. mOO

This guy, who has been unapprehended for almost five years, is anything but an idiot.

Or, if he is, this drops the bar for LE involved in the case even lower, and I don’t want to think so. They are local, rural, maybe average-level, but no worse than that.

Personally, I think they were inexperienced in such sorts of crime. And the murderer, already too experienced. Also, sadly, there are too many killers like this roaming around.

 

[AC's Grandma]

I've missed a lot of threads on this case but has anyone heard what time Abby took the video of BG? If not, why are they keeping it a secret, it would narrow down the time considerably I would think.