Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[AC4RD]

LE was between a rock and a hard spot with that decision. If amateur searchers get out there are injuries in the dark, now you have more than two persons to worry about. [...] Tough decision - do you go after two girls in the dark and risk more life and limb or go all out to save them. I know I probably would have kept going, but that is a personal decision and I don't know if I would have wanted to make that call.

Good point! As is happened, IIRC, they had the worst of both: the official searchers being called in (midnight, wasn't it?) and the unofficial searchers continuing to hunt. One thing I wanted to add to your consideration of both sides: if the disappearance did involve a crime (as it did), you perhaps also risk having bunches of people trampling your crime scenes and interfering with evidence. I don't know how you'd weigh that in the decision either to keep going or to start again with daylight, though.

 

[MistyWaters]

LE was between a rock and a hard spot with that decision. If amateur searchers get out there are injuries in the dark, now you have more than two persons to worry about. OTH, from someone who has experienced hypothermia twice - once in 50 degree temps - and seen others with it, the danger of the falling temps plus no sunlight was very real that night. If the girls had not been murdered, they may very well have been dead or close to it by noon the next day. Tough decision - do you go after two girls in the dark and risk more life and limb or go all out to save them. I know I probably would have kept going, but that is a personal decision and I don't know if I would have wanted to make that call.

But that doesn’t account for the fact that the search the next day involved volunteer searchers, not LE searching for bodies. The stated reason for calling off the search was because the terrain was dangerous in the dark. But I don’t believe either LE nor the families expected the girls would be found anywhere dead, let alone near the bridge, how could they know that? Missing teens often turn up at their with a shameful face back home in the morning, I’d be certain that was the hope.

Regardless there was no indication they’d been abducted to another location either, such as someone witnessing them getting shoved in a car. So an amber alert couldn’t have provided the public with any information at all to help find them.

 

[acutename]

Anyone think maybe Libby was "investigating" cat-fishing as she was interested/studying criminal justice?

occurred to me but not sure she would have put herself and A in a possibly dangerous spot if she was really suspicious of a person she might have been meeting IMO ... would have had her finger on the "emergency call button" from minute one. IMO.

I do wonder if the attacker had her throw away her phone and it was found anyway or if the attacker lost some control at different points- LE may know.

 

[JnRyan]

But that doesn’t account for the fact that the search the next day involved volunteer searchers, not LE searching for bodies. The stated reason for calling off the search was because the terrain was dangerous in the dark. But I don’t believe either LE nor the families expected the girls would be found anywhere dead, let alone near the bridge, how could they know that? Missing teens often turn up at their with a shameful face back home in the morning, I’d be certain that was the hope.

Regardless there was no indication they’d been abducted to another location either, such as someone witnessing them getting shoved in a car. So an amber alert couldn’t have provided the public with any information at all to help find them.

I don't see how LE could know one way or another if the girls were alive - be it murder or the elements. If they did manage to find some kind of shelter that might increase their odds. If they made it to a friend's house all the better. But if one was hurt and the other didn't leave then the elements would have gotten them both. If a person has never experienced hypothermia to the point where they have to go the ER, then the danger might not be obvious. I had to be taken to the ER. In one case I witnessed, the temps were in the 50's and it was a sunny day and it occurred in 3 or 4 hours while the person was active and not sitting. The person was an otherwise healthy adult and didn't know where they were or what was happening by the time we realized it and he was with us the entire time. Two girls out at night with temps in the 40's, knowing what I know and have experienced, I would thought there was a very good chance I would be looking for bodies or non-responsive near death girls. If I know that and I'm not trained in SAR, LE HAD to be thinking the very same thoughts. I can't even begin to imagine what was going through the mind of the sheriff when he made the decision to call off the search. Hindsight is 20-20 and as it turns the sheriff made the right call but he didn't know that till noon the next day.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

On 2/23/17 the FBI launched the billboards of Abby and Libby. On 2/25/17 they searched KAK’s house in Peru.

IMHO that was definitely not a coincidence.


On 2/24/17, @Inthedetails shared their opinion citing “I'm wondering if the perp videotaped the murders and uploaded them on some sick site. Perhaps the LE agencies are putting the girls' photos so large to prompt someone who has seen them online to call in a tip.”
(Found on page 16 on thread #10)
(Can I just say WOW!! I think ITD hit the nail on the head! Woo!)

Now that we know that KAK (aka a_shots) had *advertiser censored* on all of his devices (5 in total I believe?), including at least one device of adults having sexual intercourse with children ages 3-11. Now that doesn’t seem to line up with who or rather what type of age range of girls that he likes. He solicited for nude photographs of girls aged 12 through 17. So it really makes me wonder why did he have *advertiser censored* on his phone or rather one of his devices I believe it was an iPhone 5, that has *advertiser censored* of adults having sex with children as young as 3 years old. This is what rather this is one of the things that leads me to believe that there are so many people involved and why it is hard for them to figure out who BG is, or rather, making sure that they arrest the right person/persons.

I’m pretty sure that KAK was not the big Fish that they really want. The only thing that I can think of that may be similar to what I am trying to communicate is like the underground railroad except for in a really bad way.

Of course all of this is just my two cents, and y’all should take it as a grain of salt.

(Also I have read many times over the years that these sickos like to share this stuff with each other. And somehow I just have a very strong feeling that there are many, many, many people involved with the whole a_shots accounts. And one (and/or two) is/are BG.).

And because of this personal gut feeling that I have, I now can understand why LE has kept things a secret, on the DL..cuz essentially they are trying to take down MANY people, including BG. (But these jerks are savvy enough to elude even the FBI).


'Delphi murders' catfish sentenced to one year in jail after being arrested at girlfriend's house for child *advertiser censored* - LOVEBYLIFE

ETA: screenshot of ITD post from waaaay back when for reference & credibility.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

LE's very first picture showed that BG was printing. Did LE emphasize this in the picture via photo shop for us or was it that obvious actually?

What I would like to know is why they blurred out different parts of BG’s body with every released new photo.
And my first thing that I thought was odd about one of the photos and I’m not sure which one that was although I think that it was number two was why they blurred out his foot/shoe. The first thought that came to my mind was because he would have been able to be identified by that type of footwear. But then I thought why would they do that.
A LOT of things about this case puzzle me. Quite a conundrum if you ask me.

MOO-ing here & there.

(Also I am using Siri talk to text so please excuse any typos, and/or grammatical errors. Sending love & huggies to all who excuse these faux pas’)

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't see how LE could know one way or another if the girls were alive - be it murder or the elements. If they did manage to find some kind of shelter that might increase their odds. If they made it to a friend's house all the better. But if one was hurt and the other didn't leave then the elements would have gotten them both. If a person has never experienced hypothermia to the point where they have to go the ER, then the danger might not be obvious. I had to be taken to the ER. In one case I witnessed, the temps were in the 50's and it was a sunny day and it occurred in 3 or 4 hours while the person was active and not sitting. The person was an otherwise healthy adult and didn't know where they were or what was happening by the time we realized it and he was with us the entire time. Two girls out at night with temps in the 40's, knowing what I know and have experienced, I would thought there was a very good chance I would be looking for bodies or non-responsive near death girls. If I know that and I'm not trained in SAR, LE HAD to be thinking the very same thoughts. I can't even begin to imagine what was going through the mind of the sheriff when he made the decision to call off the search. Hindsight is 20-20 and as it turns the sheriff made the right call but he didn't know that till noon the next day.

No they don’t know but I just don’t think that LE autonomically assumes all missing teens are dead. In this case we only know in hindsight that’s what happened. I’m sure by now everyone directly involved has kicked themselves a thousand times over for not having done something differently.

 

[MistyWaters]

What I would like to know is why they blurred out different parts of BG’s body with every released new photo.
And my first thing that I thought was odd about one of the photos and I’m not sure which one that was although I think that it was number two was why they blurred out his foot/shoe. The first thought that came to my mind was because he would have been able to be identified by that type of footwear. But then I thought why would they do that.
A LOT of things about this case puzzle me. Quite a conundrum if you ask me.

MOO-ing here & there.

(Also I am using Siri talk to text so please excuse any typos, and/or grammatical errors. Sending love & huggies to all who excuse these faux pas’)

According to a photo expert who posted earlier on these threads, it’s not intentional blurring, it’s pixalization caused by the enlargement of a very tiny image from a low quality cellphone video. Rather than the experts guessing and taking the prerogative of “filling in the blanks” to make the photo seem very clear, it’s been left as is.

 

[acutename]

I don't see how LE could know one way or another if the girls were alive - be it murder or the elements. If they did manage to find some kind of shelter that might increase their odds. If they made it to a friend's house all the better. But if one was hurt and the other didn't leave then the elements would have gotten them both. If a person has never experienced hypothermia to the point where they have to go the ER, then the danger might not be obvious. I had to be taken to the ER. In one case I witnessed, the temps were in the 50's and it was a sunny day and it occurred in 3 or 4 hours while the person was active and not sitting. The person was an otherwise healthy adult and didn't know where they were or what was happening by the time we realized it and he was with us the entire time. Two girls out at night with temps in the 40's, knowing what I know and have experienced, I would thought there was a very good chance I would be looking for bodies or non-responsive near death girls. If I know that and I'm not trained in SAR, LE HAD to be thinking the very same thoughts. I can't even begin to imagine what was going through the mind of the sheriff when he made the decision to call off the search. Hindsight is 20-20 and as it turns the sheriff made the right call but he didn't know that till noon the next day.

I think that whenever it is chilly out and there is water- the creek- rescuers think about lost people getting wet and hypothermia. usually the water temp is cold even on a sunny day and I think they focused on the creek. IMO.

 

[JnRyan]

I think that whenever it is chilly out and there is water- the creek- rescuers think about lost people getting wet and hypothermia. usually the water temp is cold even on a sunny day and I think they focused on the creek. IMO.

Yes, experienced rescuers would know. Unless you've slowly become aware in the ER with a reflective blanket on you and a warm IV going into your arm or seen someone that experienced it it is EXTREMELY difficult to explain to those who haven't been there. Those that haven't been there don't have a true realization of the danger.

 

[Boxer]

A contentious point in this case is the sheriff is quoted as saying no foul play was believed to be involved that night so why would he request an amber alert as in abduction?

True. Still they made the request.
Maybe there was disagreement within the CCSO.

 

[Georgia8]

True. Still they made the request.
Maybe there was disagreement within the CCSO.

Thanks or that Riley interview very useful. 1000 volunteer searches wow great turn out and a great mess. However it doesn't seem likely that the crime scene area would have been contaminated.

Calling off the search makes sense not resuming till 10 the next morning makes no sense.

Not trying to muddy the waters further but if KAK is distributing child *advertiser censored* material money either in line with his interests or otherwise then there is no reason the net could not be beyond the U.S. say to Canada or Europe. SOME of the market for this stuff can even be teens or older males with the maturity of teens who like to watch things that are "sick" independently of genuine sexual interest in it. KAK does seem to have a lot in common with the woeful immature males that appear on To Catch a Predator etc.

There are so many places you could catfish the girls more easily kidnap them etc, in some ways it is a terrible location.

One thing I would like to know: Riley mentions that BG would probably have to detailed knowledge of the trails and the creek, where to cross etc, I wonder if anyone can tell us what percentage of the people in the area would have such familiarity, I mean did ALL high schools party or play there at some point. It seems to me that this type of familiarity would not be rare exactly but not typical either.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Thanks or that Riley interview very useful. 1000 volunteer searches wow great turn out and a great mess. However it doesn't seem likely that the crime scene area would have been contaminated.

Calling off the search makes sense not resuming till 10 the next morning makes no sense.

Not trying to muddy the waters further but if KAK is distributing child *advertiser censored* material money either in line with his interests or otherwise then there is no reason the net could not be beyond the U.S. say to Canada or Europe. SOME of the market for this stuff can even be teens or older males with the maturity of teens who like to watch things that are "sick" independently of genuine sexual interest in it. KAK does seem to have a lot in common with the woeful immature males that appear on To Catch a Predator etc.

There are so many places you could catfish the girls more easily kidnap them etc, in some ways it is a terrible location.

One thing I would like to know: Riley mentions that BG would probably have to detailed knowledge of the trails and the creek, where to cross etc, I wonder if anyone can tell us what percentage of the people in the area would have such familiarity, I mean did ALL high schools party or play there at some point. It seems to me that this type of familiarity would not be rare exactly but not typical either.

It’s JMOO that someone who lives within an hour or do of Delphi, not necessarily in Delphi, and who also makes a living or has a side business of being a lumberjack of sorts would/could be the BG candidate. I often wonder if this type of person is on LE list of potential suspects/POIs. And because this is not the FBI’s first rodeo, I am quite certain that they have already looked into this possibility.
Just thinking out loud.
YMMV.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I was considering it as well. One of my versions is, supposedly, there was a reason for the girls to insist on going to the bridge that day, how do we know they didn’t meet (*who they planned on meeting*). That person could have crossed the bridge with them, and then, in the face of danger, either fled, or turned against them.

It is just one of the ideas. I suddenly realized that if I try to reconstruct the scene, something, or someone, is missing. JMO.

Are you referring to the old saying, "I don't have to outrun the predator, I just have to outrun one of you"? Whereas, A&L loyalty caused them to try to help each other escape? MOO

I would think that there would have been evidence of a 3rd person, frightened and trying to run to get away. Maybe not. The searchers could have trambled the evidence enough to make that difficult to find. I guess it's possible...

 

[TL4S]

Thanks or that Riley interview very useful. 1000 volunteer searches wow great turn out and a great mess. However it doesn't seem likely that the crime scene area would have been contaminated.

Sbm

Right. I don't think the location of the killings was contaminated. However, the area south of the bridge, where BG approached the girls, likely was. We know through KG that searchers were in that area.

 

[TheVisual]

What I would like to know is why they blurred out different parts of BG’s body with every released new photo.
And my first thing that I thought was odd about one of the photos and I’m not sure which one that was although I think that it was number two was why they blurred out his foot/shoe. The first thought that came to my mind was because he would have been able to be identified by that type of footwear. But then I thought why would they do that.
A LOT of things about this case puzzle me. Quite a conundrum if you ask me.

MOO-ing here & there.

(Also I am using Siri talk to text so please excuse any typos, and/or grammatical errors. Sending love & huggies to all who excuse these faux pas’)

You can tell what kind of footwear he is wearing if you watch the video and stop the action at the right moment when his left foot is coming down.

 

[TheVisual]

Thanks or that Riley interview very useful. 1000 volunteer searches wow great turn out and a great mess. However it doesn't seem likely that the crime scene area would have been contaminated.

Calling off the search makes sense not resuming till 10 the next morning makes no sense.

Not trying to muddy the waters further but if KAK is distributing child *advertiser censored* material money either in line with his interests or otherwise then there is no reason the net could not be beyond the U.S. say to Canada or Europe. SOME of the market for this stuff can even be teens or older males with the maturity of teens who like to watch things that are "sick" independently of genuine sexual interest in it. KAK does seem to have a lot in common with the woeful immature males that appear on To Catch a Predator etc.

There are so many places you could catfish the girls more easily kidnap them etc, in some ways it is a terrible location.

One thing I would like to know: Riley mentions that BG would probably have to detailed knowledge of the trails and the creek, where to cross etc, I wonder if anyone can tell us what percentage of the people in the area would have such familiarity, I mean did ALL high schools party or play there at some point. It seems to me that this type of familiarity would not be rare exactly but not typical either.

Pertaining to the last paragraph; one with any knowledge of north, south, east, west would be able to be familiar with this area within an hour. The area is not that big.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think that whenever it is chilly out and there is water- the creek- rescuers think about lost people getting wet and hypothermia. usually the water temp is cold even on a sunny day and I think they focused on the creek. IMO.

As I recall, it was also said the searchers were searching absolutely everywhere, throughout town, on roads and along the entire trail system which is 10 miles toward Delphi, on the chance the girls had went somewhere else after leaving the area of the bridge.

 

[JnRyan]

Pertaining to the last paragraph; one with any knowledge of north, south, east, west would be able to be familiar with this area within an hour. The area is not that big.

We have one or two on here who have been to the trails and commented that it would not be difficult for some who are comfortable in the outdoors to learn their way around in a short amount of time.

 

[MistyWaters]

We have one or two on here who have been to the trails and commented that it would not be difficult for some who are comfortable in the outdoors to learn their way around in a short amount of time.

That is true however the WS members went there because of the crime. Before that, what would draw the killer to the trails without knowing someone, or living or working in the area? Smaller communities where everyone recognizes one another because their lives are so intertwined, a stranger sticks out like a sore thumb. Maybe LE believes he had some familiarity for that reason - it was unusual to strangers around and not many people have a reason to seek their trails out?

ETA - Especially as it was February, and a weekday and there just happened to be no school that day.