Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[LeBlack]

I've lived in 3 states and have never had an Amber Alert that didn't include a vehicle description. I think technically the alerts don't have to be tied to a vehicle but I think most states have guidelines put in place that are very specific.

I have, but those included an adult suspect. (last seen with, noncustodial parent, etc)

 

[MistyWaters]

https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/del...iley-amber-alert-would-not-have-done-any-good
For an Amber Alert to be issued, it must meet the following criteria set by the U.S. Department of Justice:

• There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred
• The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death
• There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child
• The victim of the abduction is a child aged 17 years or younger
• The child's name and other critical elements, including Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center system

 

[MistyWaters]

Link above is same for this oft-quoted advice.

Riley also gave advice for people who are concerned about the crime.

"Be cautious and be careful and be parents," he said. "Just make sure they know where their children are at, what their children are doing and -- if nothing else -- know what's going on in their lives."

 

[Yemelyan]

Link above is same for this oft-quoted advice.

Riley also gave advice for people who are concerned about the crime.

"Be cautious and be careful and be parents," he said. "Just make sure they know where their children are at, what their children are doing and -- if nothing else -- know what's going on in their lives."

Interestingly, and thanks for mentioning this, this is the quote that many people who follow this case remember as "know what your children are doing online." I even remembered it that way myself until I looked it up awhile back. This is one of the mistaken things about the case that has become erroneously enshrined as fact.

 

[sandy_80]

sbm

Yes. Although, I do think it is possible that what this witness saw was something online. I guess I can't deny that part, and if a_shots was not known about at the time, I could go with the theory that this witness saw the a_shots profile "liking" one of L's posts and thought it was suspicious so needed reporting. But, due to the affidavit, we know that LE was aware of a_shots long before the 2019 sketch switch, so that pretty clearly negates that possibility, to me.

I dont think its possible for a person reporting an online activity to be called a ( witness)
an eye witness is someone who sees the alleged POI ..
ALSO le themselves have detected the suspicious online activity.. they dont need someone to alert them.. they got all the experts

 

[JnRyan]

Not sure I can be much help.

My son has a ScottEVest jacket. I don't know about a pistol in a pocket, but the iPad pocket and the water bottle pockets work as described -- carrying these items in the assigned pocket really doesn't show.

Google tells me that an "old iPad" weighs 24 ounces. Sturm-Ruger's website shows a 22 pistol weighing 17.5 ounces and 22.5 ounces. (Don't know what any of ours, or my 2011 iPad weighs.) Looks like it is possible to carry a pistol in a similar jacket without distorting the jacket or being obvious to an observer.

jmho ymmv lrr

I don't own a ScottEVest, but I have seen them. They do have concealed carry specific version (Enforcer?), but I haven't seen good reviews on it due to poor retention of the gun. (Concealment probably goes out the window when you put your vest on the back of a chair and the gun falls out.) A good comparison of how much weight a person is carrying with a fully loaded gun is this with some of the more popular 9mm models: Glock 19, Sig P229 and S&W M&P M2.0 - 30 oz., S&W Shield 24-25 oz. and CZ-75 Compact 32 oz. So any where from 1.5 to 2 pounds and there is the issue of 'printing' brought up by hooziewhutz. There are other more CC specific vests out there such as Rothco and HQ Issue and probably for less money.

That said most criminal elements see the issue as have a gun first and concealment and retention are afterthoughts, if given any thought at all. They don't go in for fanny packs, concealed carry vests or IWB holsters. A simple stick it in the waist band or if it will fit, in a pants pocket, does it for them.

I believe this guy had a gun, to at least control them, if not kill them. He likely had it in his pants pocket or waist band. There are tells when these criminals do this. A periodic hand to the waist to re-secure the gun if it is in the waist band, slight tugs to the shirt tail to ensure your shirt isn't riding up and a periodic glance down to make sure you're not printing. One of my thoughts is this guy could have made an awkward step to avoid a bad rail and had to reach to his waist to reposition the gun. Maybe his hand and foot placement just seemed off to Liberty when he approached them.

 

[TheVisual]

I don't own a ScottEVest, but I have seen them. They do have concealed carry specific version (Enforcer?), but I haven't seen good reviews on it due to poor retention of the gun. (Concealment probably goes out the window when you put your vest on the back of a chair and the gun falls out.) A good comparison of how much weight a person is carrying with a fully loaded gun is this with some of the more popular 9mm models: Glock 19, Sig P229 and S&W M&P M2.0 - 30 oz., S&W Shield 24-25 oz. and CZ-75 Compact 32 oz. So any where from 1.5 to 2 pounds and there is the issue of 'printing' brought up by hooziewhutz. There are other more CC specific vests out there such as Rothco and HQ Issue and probably for less money.

That said most criminal elements see the issue as have a gun first and concealment and retention are afterthoughts, if given any thought at all. They don't go in for fanny packs, concealed carry vests or IWB holsters. A simple stick it in the waist band or if it will fit, in a pants pocket, does it for them.

I believe this guy had a gun, to at least control them, if not kill them. He likely had it in his pants pocket or waist band. There are tells when these criminals do this. A periodic hand to the waist to re-secure the gun if it is in the waist band, slight tugs to the shirt tail to ensure your shirt isn't riding up and a periodic glance down to make sure you're not printing. One of my thoughts is this guy could have made an awkward step to avoid a bad rail and had to reach to his waist to reposition the gun. Maybe his hand and foot placement just seemed off to Liberty when he approached them.

LE's very first picture showed that BG was printing. Did LE emphasize this in the picture via photo shop for us or was it that obvious actually?

 

[JnRyan]

LE's very first picture showed that BG was printing. Did LE emphasize this in the picture via photo shop for us or was it that obvious actually?

When I look at the video from the April 2019 it appears he might have something in that right jacket pocket, but I'm not positive. It didn't seem so obvious to me in the stills released earlier.

 

[wary]

What if people tip a suspect with knowledge of illegal activity that caused them to be suspicious of somebody (ie KAK and catfishing). Should LE just have ignored it?

‘unrelated’ is the relevant word, I think.

 

[MistyWaters]

‘unrelated’ is the relevant word, I think.

Not sure what you mean by “unrelated” however KAK is relevant. The original search warrant of his devices was connected to the Delphi investigation, although his present charges don’t pertain to it.

“Kline's 2020 arrest stems from what the police termed "secondary investigations based on information we received" in the German and Williams murders. On Feb. 25, 2017 — when Kline was 22 — police executed a search warrant for evidence of the alleged crimes, according to redacted court records cited by Indianapolis’s Fox 59. Kline, who had just returned from a trip to Las Vegas, reportedly told authorities then that he had about 100 photos and 20 videos in his possession containing explicit sexual material.“
Police Say Delphi Murders Investigation Is ‘Extremely Complicated,’ ID Mysterious Catfish | Oxygen Official Site

 

[Imvp2]

Not sure what you mean by “unrelated” however KAK is relevant. The original search warrant of his devices was connected to the Delphi investigation, although his present charges don’t pertain to it.

“Kline's 2020 arrest stems from what the police termed "secondary investigations based on information we received" in the German and Williams murders. On Feb. 25, 2017 — when Kline was 22 — police executed a search warrant for evidence of the alleged crimes, according to redacted court records cited by Indianapolis’s Fox 59. Kline, who had just returned from a trip to Las Vegas, reportedly told authorities then that he had about 100 photos and 20 videos in his possession containing explicit sexual material.“
Police Say Delphi Murders Investigation Is ‘Extremely Complicated,’ ID Mysterious Catfish | Oxygen Official Site

I'm thinking the photos and videos mentioned here, did not include the ones from his phone that he factory reset. It's curious to me that LG also reset her phone. Coincidence?

 

[Mamamerced]

Anyone think maybe Libby was "investigating" cat-fishing as she was interested/studying criminal justice?

 

[Charlot123]

https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/del...iley-amber-alert-would-not-have-done-any-good
For an Amber Alert to be issued, it must meet the following criteria set by the U.S. Department of Justice:

• There is reasonable belief by law enforcement that an abduction has occurred
• The law enforcement agency believes that the child is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death
• There is enough descriptive information about the victim and the abduction for law enforcement to issue an AMBER Alert to assist in the recovery of the child
• The victim of the abduction is a child aged 17 years or younger
• The child's name and other critical elements, including Child Abduction flag, have been entered into the National Crime Information Center system

I Googled - these 4 points are “criteria”, to which agencies “more or less stringent” adhere to; not a law.
Point 1 has been specifically dropped in VA.

For cases not meeting criteria for Amber Alert, United States Department of Justice developed the Child Abduction Response Teams (CART) program to assist local agencies. This program can be used in all missing children's cases with or without an AMBER alert.

 

[TL4S]

Just a few older links which I found very informative:

Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights

The video to the below is no longer available, that I can find, but thankfully @Spellbound transcribed!
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

 

[Chappy]

When I look at the video from the April 2019 it appears he might have something in that right jacket pocket, but I'm not positive. It didn't seem so obvious to me in the stills released earlier.

Maybe a snack or item to lure the victims ?

 

[Boxer]

I'm thinking the photos and videos mentioned here, did not include the ones from his phone that he factory reset. It's curious to me that LG also reset her phone. Coincidence?

MOO its not a coincidence.

I observed a young cousin on a computer entering dangerous territory in a chat app. She "knew" that the person could be anyone, and not the teen boy she thought he was.
I fact quickly checked the high school he said he attended.
I found there was no such high school and showed that info to her.

She was shocked, even though she "knew" it was not possible to know who she was talking to.

 

[Boxer]

Yes the amber alert was discussed to the point of the dead horse being beaten in the early days. LE had absolutely no evidence the girls were abducted against their will from the bridge area, much less a vehicle description. I agree with how it is - Amber alerts are reserved for genuine emergencies when a known abduction is taking place. Imagine if an amber alert was put out for every teen who went missing, soon no one would pay attention to them. JMO

The sheriff requested an Amber Alert, the ISP turned the request down.

 

[MistyWaters]

The sheriff requested an Amber Alert, the ISP turned the request down.

A contentious point in this case is the sheriff is quoted as saying no foul play was believed to be involved that night so why would he request an amber alert as in abduction?

 

[BNA]

IDK if this was ever discussed.

Might the girls have requested an Uber or Lyft ride prior to the sister eventually relenting and agreeing to give them a ride?

Might somebody with bad intentions have been monitoring Uber or Lyft requests in the area?

 

[JnRyan]

A contentious point in this case is the sheriff is quoted as saying no foul play was believed to be involved that night so why would he request an amber alert as in abduction?

LE was between a rock and a hard spot with that decision. If amateur searchers get out there are injuries in the dark, now you have more than two persons to worry about. OTH, from someone who has experienced hypothermia twice - once in 50 degree temps - and seen others with it, the danger of the falling temps plus no sunlight was very real that night. If the girls had not been murdered, they may very well have been dead or close to it by noon the next day. Tough decision - do you go after two girls in the dark and risk more life and limb or go all out to save them. I know I probably would have kept going, but that is a personal decision and I don't know if I would have wanted to make that call.