Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

[FrostedGlass]

There are reports that Ron Logan died today, apparently of Covid. He had been on a ventilator. I guess I can't link to the channel. It is news from Randy Gravitt.

Thanks for letting us know. I thought he seemed like a really nice man. RIP Ron.

 

[Charlot123]

You're right IMO about whether LE has enough biological material to yield a decent sample, absolutely. Ditto "being not related"--absolutely possible. But one more way DNA evidence has possibly not been helpful ("hasn't panned out") is if there simply isn't anything to compare any CS DNA to. And I think that's a very significant possibility.

The other week we discussed how perhaps as many as 50 million Americans (at an estimate) may have sent DNA in to one of the commercial DNA companies. Yemelyan very helpfully discussed how different testing protocols might limit the use of any of that DNA information, but we also need to realize that even the commercial DNA samples can't automatically be searched, not legally. As I understand it, people who submit samples must specifically opt-in to have that data copied to a searchable database. So just submitting DNA to "123 and me" apparently doesn't make your DNA searchable, you must also give informed and explicit consent for that ahead of time. And there are reasons to be concerned about the accuracy of the testing to begin with. (1.)

I tried a search just now and various articles say perhaps 50-75% of Americans might be at least partially linked to DNA from related samples that have been submitted--and the articles specify they mean white Anglo Americans. I'd suggest you search this if you're interested; I only took a short look at this and there's a lot of variation in the numbers. But one source that was particularly interesting is a Pew Research article, About half of Americans are OK with DNA testing companies sharing user data with law enforcement , that says around 35% of people surveyed did not approve of DNA information being searchable by lawn forcement.

Now I'm just guessing, strictly uninformed guessing, but I'd guess maybe 95% of people in Salt Lake City would approve of their DNA data being searchable. Geneology is important to many Mormons and they're law-abiding people.

But go to the Mississippi Delta, where a third of residents live below the poverty level (NBC News), or Idaho, where fewer than 45% of residents have covid vaccinations (vs 15% for the general population, source US Census.) IMHO in general, these people do not trust science or central government, and many/most of them IMO are not going to opt-in to have their DNA searchable--most of them won't send their own DNA and neither will many/most of their relatives IMO. Incorrect DNA test results are IMO a significant risk.

So just "having DNA from the crime scene" *might* turn out to be useful in prosecution of a subject, possibly in identifying a subject for arrest. But even if LE has an excellent quality DNA sample and they feel sure it is from the killer, there is still an unknown but clearly significant chance it will be of no use (2.)

--------------
1.) Tandy-Connor, S., Guiltinan, J., Krempely, K. et al. False-positive results released by direct-to-consumer genetic tests highlight the importance of clinical confirmation testing for appropriate patient care. Genet Med 20, 1515–1521 (2018). Redirecting

Genetic Tests and ‘False Positives’

J Forensic Sci; 2003 Jan;48(1):47-54. "How the probability of a false positive affects the value of DNA evidence"

2.) The numbers are a guess; a web search will let you get your own set of numbers. The number of samples submitted, and how many of them can legally be used for searches, and how much of the related population is affected, and many other specifics--all of these vary by news article.

Mississippi Delta might have no money for 23@me, but after the articles about GSK, many people pulled their DNAs from Gedmatch, and some groups more than others. It might have something to do with certain level poverty, but more so, mistrust of police.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

What baffles me is there is a $350,00, which could change someone’s life. IMO If someone knows something, they were either complicit or they are terrified.

“If everybody kept their mouths shut nobody would ever get arrested.” (Quote from my dad, NYPD,detective)Somebody’s keeping their mouth shut. Nobody else but the killer knows, imho.

 

[cuecard]

“If everybody kept their mouths shut nobody would ever get arrested.” (Quote from my dad, NYPD,detective)Somebody’s keeping their mouth shut. Nobody else but the killer knows, imho.

I agree with this. I don't think anyone else knows either. If someone you know tells you they have murdered someone it would be a monumental shock. If someone you know tells you they have murdered two young girls, it's almost beyond the realms of comprehension. That's not something someone could just keep quiet about for 5 years imo.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I agree with this. I don't think anyone else knows either. If someone you know tells you they have murdered someone it would be a monumental shock. If someone you know tells you they have murdered two young girls, it's almost beyond the realms of comprehension. That's not something someone could just keep quiet about for 5 years imo.

I tends to agree with you.
But I also know of people who wouldn’t ever tell a soul. Think of old school one percenters, or something of the like for reference.
YMMV. m()()

 

[carbuff]

There are reports that Ron Logan died today, apparently of Covid. He had been on a ventilator. I guess I can't link to the channel. It is news from Randy Gravitt.

That's too bad. Poor man. Condolences to his family.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

That's too bad. Poor man. Condolences to his family.

I always felt really bad for him. Logan's early video appearances were such sincere disbelief that anything like this could happen on his property. He did many media interviews with that theme, including walking the reporter down toward the crime scene.

By all rights it should have remained that way. Here is Ron Logan taking us down to the creek on the third anniversary, etc. Then the ridiculous search warrant, disgraceful trumped up charges and sentence, and asinine vigilante suspicion. I fully understood why Logan stopped trusting or appearing.

 

[Boxer]

I always felt really bad for him. Logan's early video appearances were such sincere disbelief that anything like this could happen on his property. He did many media interviews with that theme, including walking the reporter down toward the crime scene.

By all rights it should have remained that way. Here is Ron Logan taking us down to the creek on the third anniversary, etc. Then the ridiculous search warrant, disgraceful trumped up charges and sentence, and asinine vigilante suspicion. I fully understood why Logan stopped trusting or appearing.

The judge that sentenced Ron L. was a tweeking drug addict stalking a teen prostitute.

The Sheriff didn't have to treat him that way.

 

[Prime8]

My own is probably about the LE investigation. I'd say I've defended LE strongly all along. But a lot of the discussion here makes it fairly obvious to me that messages from different agencies, and from different people, haven't been carefully considered and developed by an overall investigation command structure working with a well-thought-out strategy. I've developed the opinion that there has been a lot of disorganization among the investigating agencies, and I'm very sad to say that I suspect that the investigation has been held back by this. Not good. :-(

Do you think it's disorganization due strictly to a poor command structure or perhaps because there's quite a bit of disagreement on how the case is being handled by different agencies? I don't buy the "bumbling cops" theory but the fact that they couldn't seem to get on the same page about the new sketch vs. the old sketch following the update had me raising an eyebrow. As of last summer, there were still sketches up around town including the old sketch. BUT all that said, there's been very few leaks in this case, which I think is pretty impressive.

 

[MollyDDD]

Just a guess, but "mixed messages" might happen when there is no clear command structure in an investigation, so we have a person from one agency saying "Abcd" while a speaker from another LE entity says "Lmnop," and someone from a third agency declines to comment on the matter.

It pains me to say it, but it sounds IMO like it relates to poor chain-of-command (and control.)

Is there anything the parents of the victims can do to get a new investigation underway? I just know if they were my girls, I’d be on LE like white on rice!

 

[Boxer]

I agree with this. I don't think anyone else knows either. If someone you know tells you they have murdered someone it would be a monumental shock. If someone you know tells you they have murdered two young girls, it's almost beyond the realms of comprehension. That's not something someone could just keep quiet about for 5 years imo.

MOO another criminal would keep quiet if they don't want to talk to police for their own reasons.

 

[MollyDDD]

It’s that time of year again. Creeping up on year 5 of no resolution or justice for Libby and Abby. LE deflects criticism by saying they look forward to explaining all about their amazing investigation once they arrest someone. Right. I doubt that, as far as them looking forward to it.
My question is…what is the most important new thing you learned this year concerning the case? For me, I learned that I can’t believe anything that comes out of LE’s mouths about this case.
In years 1-4, I apparently stupidly, believed everything LE threw out as fact. Those very few bits of information they shared with us, I collected them like precious stones. And I defended those few facts revealed to us by correcting others here and reminding them over and over of the tiny pieces of truth revealed by LE to us.
Sorry about that. My humble apologies.
The revelation that the girls were possibly catfished after being told for 4 and a half years that they weren’t revealed my treasured facts to be Fool’s Gold. I was the fool I guess. I can’t trust anything we’ve heard now. The catfish info wasn’t some new info they just came across, that was obvious.
So, I would love to know what was the most important thing you learned this year?

P.S. JBC is still my #1 draft pick for the Delphi killer. I know some disagree and that’s OK, I’m sticking with him until they arrest somebody else.

Mine too. Such a puzzling case. I just hope he doesn’t get away with murder.

 

[Charlot123]

There are reports that Ron Logan died today, apparently of Covid. He had been on a ventilator. I guess I can't link to the channel. It is news from Randy Gravitt.

Sad news. RIP, Ron. I feel very sorry for him.

 

[Charlot123]

It’s that time of year again. Creeping up on year 5 of no resolution or justice for Libby and Abby. LE deflects criticism by saying they look forward to explaining all about their amazing investigation once they arrest someone. Right. I doubt that, as far as them looking forward to it.
My question is…what is the most important new thing you learned this year concerning the case? For me, I learned that I can’t believe anything that comes out of LE’s mouths about this case.
In years 1-4, I apparently stupidly, believed everything LE threw out as fact. Those very few bits of information they shared with us, I collected them like precious stones. And I defended those few facts revealed to us by correcting others here and reminding them over and over of the tiny pieces of truth revealed by LE to us.
Sorry about that. My humble apologies.
The revelation that the girls were possibly catfished after being told for 4 and a half years that they weren’t revealed my treasured facts to be Fool’s Gold. I was the fool I guess. I can’t trust anything we’ve heard now. The catfish info wasn’t some new info they just came across, that was obvious.
So, I would love to know what was the most important thing you learned this year?

P.S. JBC is still my #1 draft pick for the Delphi killer. I know some disagree and that’s OK, I’m sticking with him until they arrest somebody else.

Maybe, two things.

1) Rules and regulations exist for a reason. And no matter how well one means, if criminalists don’t adhere to them from moment one, they might be rendered powerless, and neither personal kindness, nor the best of intentions, can rectify the messy outcome.
2) this being said, there is such a thing as intuition.

 

[Charlot123]

I always felt really bad for him. Logan's early video appearances were such sincere disbelief that anything like this could happen on his property. He did many media interviews with that theme, including walking the reporter down toward the crime scene.

By all rights it should have remained that way. Here is Ron Logan taking us down to the creek on the third anniversary, etc. Then the ridiculous search warrant, disgraceful trumped up charges and sentence, and asinine vigilante suspicion. I fully understood why Logan stopped trusting or appearing.

And these were the last years of his life! He was an old man. I would wish this on no one, ever.

 

[cuecard]

MOO another criminal would keep quiet if they don't want to talk to police for their own reasons.

Possible, of course, but I just don’t see it in this instance personally. But I have been wrong before.

 

[Fika]

Haven’t posted here for a while because well.. I had nothing to add. This case still perplex me. I read here all the time to keep track of what is happening.
Anthony_shots profile keeps me more perplexed then ever add to that different sketches ( old,young) and I feel like I can’t even make an opinion anymore of what could have happened. I went down rabbit the hole trying to figure out sketches, video , etc .then decided to take a break for my own sanity . With anniversary approaching I really hope that 2022 is the year the police will solve this case.
I still feel that it was a random ( as opposed to online predator) spur of a moment murder I also think that any of the guys that LE looked into/ is looking now is not our guy . As I said I’m perplexed and my opinion isn’t a strong one.

 

[layer]

The whole Anthony Shots-KAK thing blows my mind. For the first time in almost 5 years I am cautiously optimistic.

 

[somequestions]

Haven’t posted here for a while because well.. I had nothing to add. This case still perplex me. I read here all the time to keep track of what is happening.
Anthony_shots profile keeps me more perplexed then ever add to that different sketches ( old,young) and I feel like I can’t even make an opinion anymore of what could have happened. I went down rabbit the hole trying to figure out sketches, video , etc .then decided to take a break for my own sanity . With anniversary approaching I really hope that 2022 is the year the police will solve this case.
I still feel that it was a random ( as opposed to online predator) spur of a moment murder I also think that any of the guys that LE looked into/ is looking now is not our guy . As I said I’m perplexed and my opinion isn’t a strong one.

I agree. I do not think any of the people LE has looked at or is currently looking at is the suspect. It is very difficult to come up with a profile of what type of person each of us thinks committed this crime because LE has not released anything about cause of death and what happened to Abigail Williams and Liberty German. But from the way LE talked at the beginning, it sounds like the killer in this case is more complex. At one of the press conferences, a quote I remembered was about how the killer left them out in the woods.

We do not know how the girls were killed or how they were left in the woods, but my opinion is that this killer is more determined. The statement about how the killer left them in the woods is a visual statement.

 

[FromGermany1]

I always felt really bad for him. Logan's early video appearances were such sincere disbelief that anything like this could happen on his property. He did many media interviews with that theme, including walking the reporter down toward the crime scene.

By all rights it should have remained that way. Here is Ron Logan taking us down to the creek on the third anniversary, etc. Then the ridiculous search warrant, disgraceful trumped up charges and sentence, and asinine vigilante suspicion. I fully understood why Logan stopped trusting or appearing.

I believe, most of us didn't think, RL had done it (the double murder to the girls), but it seemed possible, that he knew something or that someone (BG) used him, his trust, his property, his car, his absence from home, his barn, etc. After all, we viewed men as a possible suspect, who had knowledge about RL's property, afaik: DN and GK. Recently there was suddenly a white pick-up named as the car, perhaps parked at the CBS building, AND poor RL got his white pick-up searched in 2017, if I remember well.
So, there were reasons to suffer something like a "collateral damage". It is sad, when it concerns a man of retirement age, but unfortunately it was "HIS backyard", where the girls were found murdered, as he said himself.
With Corona and under ventilation, perhaps without visits from family, ending his life is tragic for RL and his family, and I'm very sorry.