Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

[StarryStarryNight]

That's why they haven't identified him. He was most likely very average - average height, average weight, average looking, and the list goes on and on. People saw him and didn't pay any attention to him because he fit right in. He didn't stand out in any way.

Looking like an average guy may have been intentional or he's just very, very lucky no one paid any attention to him that day - except, unfortunately, Libby and Abby.

I agree.
The reason this case hasn’t been solved is not because the killer is an evil mastermind or a criminal genius. I tend to think he is extraordinarily lucky.
In my opinion I think some evidence or information was overlooked or dismissed early on and by the time LE realized what had happened they were two years behind and are still trying to catch up.
LE seems to be looking for something very specific. They plead for people to call the d#*n tip line, but tens of thousands of tips later, there is no arrest. What the heck do they want!? Tell us what you need!

 

[JnRyan]

With the impending anniversary nearly here, I'm noting the frustration. Out of desperation over these five years, we have turned BG into an almost supernatural being. We've theorized all kinds of physical and mental ailments, even some that would likely negate the possibility of him traversing the bridge and woods, at all. We've made him a genetic mutant. We've had him disguised and cunning and heavily weighed down with kill kit. We've had him design a whole theatrical set at the crime scene, and using every mode of transportation from semi to motorbike to hoverboard. We've had him full of trickery and baby animals. We've put him between 16 and 85 years old, 100 to 300 pounds and 5'1" to 6'4" tall. We've made him responsible for every serious crime committed in the region over the last ten years. Somewhere in this mess is probably the reality.

I'm not denigrating people's ideas. We are all just trying pieces together to see if they fit. The simplest way from point A to point B might not always be a straight line, but we can't forget that as an option. BG might just not be all that special. Either way, he needs to be held accountable.

Yes. Back to basics. Occam's Razor.

 

[AC4RD]

Not looking for a link, but IIRC, bone cancer treatment involves essentially a transplant of bone marrow cells that produce blood cells. After treatment, a person's blood cells may have one set of DNA, while hair & skin have a different set.

"Mixed chimerism"--in allo transplants, there are sometimes two sets of DNA living inside a person; more are possible in multiple transplants from different stem-cell sources (donated bone marrow, donated peripheral stem cells, cord blood cells, etc.) The doctors test for chimerism to see if a graft has been 100% successful--if a person's immune system is now 100% from the donor's cells. AFAIK the cells don't locate in different places, though patients may have tests run on blood, marrow, or presumably some other cell types. For an ablative prep regimen, one in which the sick person's entire marrow is killed and replaced, 100% chimerism is considered a success. Not all transplants aim for this, though.

"Be The Match" is a really wonderful organization that can provide more and better information. Just my own experience is that if somebody is 98% donor chimerism (or whatever), it's pretty much all over, not localized to feet or earlobes or whatever.

 

[zencompass]

"Mixed chimerism"--in allo transplants, there are sometimes two sets of DNA living inside a person; more are possible in multiple transplants from different stem-cell sources (donated bone marrow, donated peripheral stem cells, cord blood cells, etc.) The doctors test for chimerism to see if a graft has been 100% successful--if a person's immune system is now 100% from the donor's cells. AFAIK the cells don't locate in different places, though patients may have tests run on blood, marrow, or presumably some other cell types. For an ablative prep regimen, one in which the sick person's entire marrow is killed and replaced, 100% chimerism is considered a success. Not all transplants aim for this, though.

"Be The Match" is a really wonderful organization that can provide more and better information. Just my own experience is that if somebody is 98% donor chimerism (or whatever), it's pretty much all over, not localized to feet or earlobes or whatever.

Dear @AC4RD,

Thank you for your informative post! I always learn something new from your posts!

 

[margarita25]

I think DNA was possibly washed away in the river, imo.

 

[TL4S]

I think DNA was possibly washed away in the river, imo.

You know, I've always suspected something happened on the south side of the creek, below that steep bluff. If there was an assault of some sort, you're right, some of the evidence of that might have been washed away when they crossed.

 

[Prime8]

LE seems to be looking for something very specific. They plead for people to call the d#*n tip line, but tens of thousands of tips later, there is no arrest. What the heck do they want!? Tell us what you need!

Honestly, I think maybe they just need a name. I'm not being flippant, they have probably received thousands of names at this point. I think they may have enough evidence that if they do a preliminary investigation into him, everything will fall into place. And that isn't always the case, sometimes they have a name and nothing too firm to connect them to a crime. One can hope...

 

[sunshineray]

Thinking out loud about DNA and two sketches, I’m remembering something from an old Forensic Files.

Chimera?


“chimera, in genetics, an organism or tissue that contains at least two different sets of DNA, most often originating from the fusion of as many different zygotes (fertilized eggs). The term is derived from the Chimera of Greek mythology, a fire-breathing monster that was part lion, part goat, and part dragon.
Encyclopedia Britannica › science
chimera | Genetics, Symptoms, & Microchimeras - Encyclopedia Britannica


The first human chimera was reported in 1953. Natural chimeras can arise in various ways. Fetal and maternal cells can cross the placental barrier so that both mother and child may become microchimeras. Two zygotes can fuse together during an early embryonic stage to form a fusion chimera.
View attachment 332754
ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books. › pii
Natural human chimeras: A review - ScienceDirect

—

Thinking out loud more, what about nonsecretors?

“What is a non secretor in forensics?


What does it mean to be a non secretor?

Secretor status refers to the presence or absence of water-soluble ABO blood group antigens in a person's bodily fluids, such as saliva, tears, breast milk, urine, and semen. People who secrete these antigens in their bodily fluids are referred to as secretors, while people who do not are termed non-secretors.
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki › Sec...
Secretor status - Wikipedia


But if someone is a non-secretor (non-secretors make up between 15% and 25% of the population), though they may leave some semblance of a fingerprint behind, there's usually not enough DNA/information within it to identify the criminal.Jul 18, 2017”

—

Chimera: In medicine, a person composed of two genetically distinct types of cells. Human chimeras were first discovered with the advent of blood typing when it was found that some people had more than one blood type. ... About 8% of non-identical twin pairs are chimeras.Jun 3, 2021
https://www.medicinenet.com › defi...
Medical Definition of Chimera - MedicineNet

Fascinating margarita. Thanks for posting that!

 

[margarita25]

Fascinating margarita. Thanks for posting that!

YW, some great responses too. It popped in my head reading something @JnRyan posted, so I figured 5 years in, I might as well bring it to the table with everything else under the sun in 142 threads. Do I think chimerism is really the case? Probably unlikely, doubtful. I was just glad to bring something new here, as outlandish as it may or may not be (assuming this hasn’t already been brought up).

5 years

I was thinking about JBC, and the photo of his bike in the trees, and thinking IF he’s BG, which I think there’s a very good possibility, for a variety of reasons, then maybe he rode in/out on his bike, or similar apparatus, dirt bike (motorized?), etc. (eta: I’ve wondered about this before, even before JBC).

It’s great to see everyone still here for the girls full speed five years later.

As for the river possibly washing away DNA, maybe assault(s) took place on one side of the river, then they were killed and dragged to the other side. Or if they were marched across the river alive, maybe they were washed off afterwards.

Another thought, maybe BG planned this area for this very reason, because the water was there.

IDK anything, just waiting for an arrest like everyone else.

 

[MollyDDD]

I agree.
The reason this case hasn’t been solved is not because the killer is an evil mastermind or a criminal genius. I tend to think he is extraordinarily lucky.
In my opinion I think some evidence or information was overlooked or dismissed early on and by the time LE realized what had happened they were two years behind and are still trying to catch up.
LE seems to be looking for something very specific. They plead for people to call the d#*n tip line, but tens of thousands of tips later, there is no arrest. What the heck do they want!? Tell us what you need!

Could it be that someone in authority, LE perhaps, knows the identity of the killer but is protecting them for some personal/political reason? A small town with a small population and a small police department, is internal corruption not a possibility? IMO

 

[sunshineray]

YW, some great responses too. It popped in my head reading something @JnRyan posted, so I figured 5 years in, I might as well bring it to the table with everything else under the sun in 142 threads. Do I think chimerism is really the case? Probably unlikely, doubtful. I was just glad to bring something new here, as outlandish as it may or may not be (assuming this hasn’t already been brought up).

5 years

I was thinking about JBC, and the photo of his bike in the trees, and thinking IF he’s BG, which I think there’s a very good possibility, for a variety of reasons, then maybe he rode in/out on his bike, or similar apparatus, dirt bike (motorized?), etc.

It’s great to see everyone still here for the girls full speed five years later.

As for the river possibly washing away DNA, maybe assault(s) took place on one side of the river, then they were killed and dragged to the other side. Or if they were marched across the river alive, maybe they were washed off afterwards.

Another thought, maybe BG planned this area for this very reason, because the water was there.

IDK anything, just waiting for an arrest like everyone else.

The non-secretor is a possibility. IIRC, Sheriff Leazenby said they have fingerprint(s?) but maybe no DNA because of that? As always...a possibility.

 

[MollyDDD]

Thinking out loud about DNA and two sketches, I’m remembering something from an old Forensic Files.

Chimera?


“chimera, in genetics, an organism or tissue that contains at least two different sets of DNA, most often originating from the fusion of as many different zygotes (fertilized eggs). The term is derived from the Chimera of Greek mythology, a fire-breathing monster that was part lion, part goat, and part dragon.
Encyclopedia Britannica › science
chimera | Genetics, Symptoms, & Microchimeras - Encyclopedia Britannica


The first human chimera was reported in 1953. Natural chimeras can arise in various ways. Fetal and maternal cells can cross the placental barrier so that both mother and child may become microchimeras. Two zygotes can fuse together during an early embryonic stage to form a fusion chimera.
View attachment 332754
ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books. › pii
Natural human chimeras: A review - ScienceDirect

—

Thinking out loud more, what about nonsecretors?

“What is a non secretor in forensics?


What does it mean to be a non secretor?

Secretor status refers to the presence or absence of water-soluble ABO blood group antigens in a person's bodily fluids, such as saliva, tears, breast milk, urine, and semen. People who secrete these antigens in their bodily fluids are referred to as secretors, while people who do not are termed non-secretors.
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki › Sec...
Secretor status - Wikipedia


But if someone is a non-secretor (non-secretors make up between 15% and 25% of the population), though they may leave some semblance of a fingerprint behind, there's usually not enough DNA/information within it to identify the criminal.Jul 18, 2017”

—

Chimera: In medicine, a person composed of two genetically distinct types of cells. Human chimeras were first discovered with the advent of blood typing when it was found that some people had more than one blood type. ... About 8% of non-identical twin pairs are chimeras.Jun 3, 2021
https://www.medicinenet.com › defi...
Medical Definition of Chimera - MedicineNet

First time I’ve ever heard of the word. Learn some new every day!

 

[margarita25]

Not trying to throw cold water on your ideas but just to give a little more info about the two things you are speculating about....

Human chimeras, while we don't know about every case of one, are thought to be extremely rare (from the Science Direct article that you quoted, you'll see that only 100 humans have ever been found to have this condition over the last 70 years). So for this reason, while chimerism could explain the apparent "lack" of usable DNA in the Delphi case (I put lack in quotes because we are assuming this is so; we really don't know what investigators have), a far more common occurrence is more likely, and that's just that any DNA at the scene from the offender was not in good shape by the time it was collected. Though the girls were found the next day, they laid outside all night in what I'd guess, were wet and sub-optimal conditions for any DNA that was on surfaces because of dew collecting, etc.

Next, non-secretors. Modern DNA technology has rendered the secretor vs non-secretor thing from the early days of forensics obsolete. This was a big deal back when DNA was unknown for forensic work and the only thing body fluids could tell you was the blood type of the perpetrator. But nowadays blood group type isn't even one of the areas of the genome that are sampled for purposes of CODIS - it's not an area of our DNA that is variable enough to be useful for this.

Think about what non-secretor status actually is. A non-secretor has a gene that prevents blood type antigens (which are a type of carbohydrate called an oligosaccharide) from being expressed in other body fluids like semen, sweat and saliva. But because the carbohydrates that mark your blood type are not in your saliva (for example), does NOT mean that your DNA doesn't exist in these fluids. You will still have cheek cells floating in your saliva that have the full complement of your DNA. In fact, commercial DNA testing services like 23andMe allow users to test their saliva sample for secretor status. How could they do this if, when the non-secretors spit in a cup, no DNA was left behind?

About twenty percent of the population are non-secretors. They are not exempt from leaving usable DNA behind them. If, for example, a non-secretor male leaves semen at a crime scene, the sperm cells in that sample (as long as undamaged by water, etc) will have genetic material in them that can be developed into a DNA profile. It will not matter at all that his blood group antigens are not also being expressed in the semen sample - the genes that encode them will still be there in the nuclei of sperm, just as the gene that turns their expression on and off is there too.

Thanks for your response!! No worries about cold water here!! Like I said, it was just something that popped in my head from one of those old shows, Forensic Files, or FBI Files, or Cold Case Files, or New Detectives, oh I bet it was from New Detectives...

So, in summary and layman’s terms, the nonsecretor thing was in the past but now modern DNA technology can detect/work around this?

 

[Charlot123]

Not looking for a link, but IIRC, bone cancer treatment involves essentially a transplant of bone marrow cells that produce blood cells. After treatment, a person's blood cells may have one set of DNA, while hair & skin have a different set.

Anyone else hear of this?

jmho ymmv lrr

Depends on who's the donor. If this is patient himself (stored cord blood, of yet healthy stem cells harvested in the beginning of the treatment), then, no. If the donor is identical twin, well, basically, not, (although the fact that one twin has the illness, and the other, not, indicates that their DNAs are already not quite identical, that some mutations have occurred in the course of their lives). But for today, it is "no".

If it is an HLA-matching sibling or nonsibling donor, then, "yes", as the idea is to eradicate own (diseased, mutated) hematopoetic stem cells and replace them with donor's ones, so yes, what you are describing has to happen, for the procedure to succeed. The recipients' bone marrow is populated by the cells with a different DNA. The survived recipients end up carrying two types of cells and two types of DNA in their bodies... There were interesting questions asked by bone marrow donors, btw; these people, with altruistic purposes, entered their names into the BM donors bank, and got random matches (!Imagine the chance!! Not relatives!). And some of the donors would ask about possible long-term ramifications. Some questions sounded naive, but ultimately, were not. And while usually in BMT, chimerism involves only the bone marrow, specialists cannot ever say, "no, this can not ever happen" (there were different questions). All that was said was, "it has not happened before", or "chance is unbelievably slim". BM donation is a relatively new science, and before, all attention was drawn to saving the patients with, say, leukemia. Now science has entered the phase where the recipients are surviving. And after years, totally different questions emerge.

P.S. one of them might be, there might be female-to male transplants, and vise versa. So the "gender" of the BM and other cells might be different.

Another one is more complicated. When the transplant is from allogenic (not own) stored cord blood, do they always tell the "owner" of the cord about it and get a consent? Otherwise, this is where I see a potential problem, including criminology one.

 

[MistyWaters]

Could it be that someone in authority, LE perhaps, knows the identity of the killer but is protecting them for some personal/political reason? A small town with a small population and a small police department, is internal corruption not a possibility? IMO

IMO the benefit of the multi-agency task force should prevent any such unlikely situation from occurring. It’s not just a small county police force involved in the investigation, plus tips can be forwarded directly to the FBI or ISP.

 

[HistoryNut]

I agree.
The reason this case hasn’t been solved is not because the killer is an evil mastermind or a criminal genius. I tend to think he is extraordinarily lucky.
In my opinion I think some evidence or information was overlooked or dismissed early on and by the time LE realized what had happened they were two years behind and are still trying to catch up.
LE seems to be looking for something very specific. They plead for people to call the d#*n tip line, but tens of thousands of tips later, there is no arrest. What the heck do they want!? Tell us what you need!

I agree and believe people want to help, but LE needs to tell us how to help then

 

[Charlot123]

The non-secretor is a possibility. IIRC, Sheriff Leazenby said they have fingerprint(s?) but maybe no DNA because of that? As always...a possibility.

No, it would not be relevant. Because "nonsecretor" simply doesn't secrete some blood antigens into the sperm or saliva, but DNA is still present, in all cells. It was Important in pre-DNA era. At that time, criminalists would rely on ABO system antigens in the sperm found at the CS. At least (thought they), it should match the blood type. Nonsecretor status was not known at that time.

 

[DeDee]

YW, some great responses too. It popped in my head reading something @JnRyan posted, so I figured 5 years in, I might as well bring it to the table with everything else under the sun in 142 threads. Do I think chimerism is really the case? Probably unlikely, doubtful. I was just glad to bring something new here, as outlandish as it may or may not be (assuming this hasn’t already been brought up).

5 years

I was thinking about JBC, and the photo of his bike in the trees, and thinking IF he’s BG, which I think there’s a very good possibility, for a variety of reasons, then maybe he rode in/out on his bike, or similar apparatus, dirt bike (motorized?), etc. (eta: I’ve wondered about this before, even before JBC).

It’s great to see everyone still here for the girls full speed five years later.

As for the river possibly washing away DNA, maybe assault(s) took place on one side of the river, then they were killed and dragged to the other side. Or if they were marched across the river alive, maybe they were washed off afterwards.

Another thought, maybe BG planned this area for this very reason, because the water was there.

IDK anything, just waiting for an arrest like everyone else.

FIVE YEARS! Who would have suspected it would take this long and, obviously, even longer for an arrest? What I wish they'd do: Release more data!

I agree that KK is the best tip we've seen in a while. What's so creepy is that he'd switch his target from InstaGram over to SnapChat for comms. The good looking model was the perfect face to use for his ruse. Libby engaged with SnapChat that very FEB day.

When BG says, "Guys! ... Down the hill," it's as if he is kinda sad to have to tell them they must go down the hill. Was his head hanging down? Was he a coward and couldn't look them in the eye?

What was the CS like that led LEO down the wrong road for two years until they zeroed in on the new suspect sketch? Something about the Crime Scene misled them from Day One until they realized they'd been played and here we are two years past that time. How were they misled? What are the signatures?

.

 

[Detective Willy]

So many theories on this case and maybe we should look at this from the start again.

What was the killers MOTIVE? IMO if we can work this out it will go a long way to help solve this.

Was this a targeted attack or a random attack?

Most people seem to think it was a random attack so why was BG there on that day? It does not seem to be a random area that you accidentally end up at. BG must work nearby or have some connection with the trails and bridge area.

Maybe he is a psycho and has always wanted to kill. Maybe he had planned murdering someone at this location for a while and waited and watched from nearby with his "kit". Maybe he had staked this place out on previous days/weeks etc.

My problem with this theory is that if we was a sicko who planned to kill random people he would likely have done it again in the next 5 years. Is it possible that this was a targeted attack and if the answer is yes then the next question is why?

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

"Mixed chimerism"--in allo transplants, there are sometimes two sets of DNA living inside a person; more are possible in multiple transplants from different stem-cell sources (donated bone marrow, donated peripheral stem cells, cord blood cells, etc.) The doctors test for chimerism to see if a graft has been 100% successful--if a person's immune system is now 100% from the donor's cells. AFAIK the cells don't locate in different places, though patients may have tests run on blood, marrow, or presumably some other cell types. For an ablative prep regimen, one in which the sick person's entire marrow is killed and replaced, 100% chimerism is considered a success. Not all transplants aim for this, though.

"Be The Match" is a really wonderful organization that can provide more and better information. Just my own experience is that if somebody is 98% donor chimerism (or whatever), it's pretty much all over, not localized to feet or earlobes or whatever.

You’re back! I hope you’re feeling better! I thought you may have been very very sick with Covid and could’ve been dead. Thankfully that didn’t happen as I (we) would have missed your posts.

mOO