Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

[FromGermany1]

 

[Prime8]

Thank you. That is nice of you to say. Since they say they investigate every tip, I imagine it was investigated and police moved on from it for whatever reason. I will do the same.

I mean, we know very little on who they are investigating so they may not have moved on.

 

[carbuff]

I mean, we know very little on who they are investigating so they may not have moved on.

In fact, the more seriously they take it, the less likely you are to hear anything about it, unless they need more information from you.

I submitted a tip on an unidentified person a couple of years back, didn't hear anything for months and months, until I got a nice email from the local FBI office (not who I submitted the tip to) saying thank you for the tip, we were able to rule it out, thank you again we rely on the input of people like you participating in the justice process.

So you never know.

 

[Doghairrules]

So what to you think the white lines are in the chest area and lower(not the white thing at his neck)if his jacket is buttoned up?

I only see white at the top and on the sides but it looks to me like the jacket is snapped or buttoned from the bottom to roughly his chest and then open. And, again the image is blurry so this is just how my eyes are interpreting it, it looks like there may be gaps between the buttons or snaps as if the jacket was too small. Which could be because he has layers on underneath it. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder if Libby called the customer service, be it her phone carrier or Apple, before she did factory reset?

In 2017, there were more humans and less chatbots in customer services. I just thought how much can be found about us, especially if they do diagnostics of our phones. (Same is true for computers)…

 

[MollyDDD]

Sad. 5 years, a photo, a voice, a video clip. No arrest.
Sad. Sad. Sad.

Unacceptable. Unacceptable. Unacceptable. IMO

 

[Detective Willy]

The saddest part of this investigation is that no progress seems to be have been made for a long time. Lots of red herrings IMO.

Hopefully they can make a significant statement on the upcoming anniversary?

 

[sunshineray]

Agreed. I'm not certain if it has ever been mentioned how many people were on those walking trails that day during that time frame. Did any of the other hikers see this man, dressed this way?

All I can find about that is Anna Williams, Abby's Mom, September 2020 online interview.

In that interview, starting at about 27:45 time stamp, she talks about it. Gathering info from this person and that person (saying they were there or their kids were etc...) Anna says she thinks a "fair number would be about 50" people in the area that day.

 

[sunshineray]

It doesn't unless you can recognize what is inside his coat.

I'm curious, do do have an opinion on what that might be? TIA if you'd like to share.

 

[margarita25]

Thinking out loud about DNA and two sketches, I’m remembering something from an old Forensic Files.

Chimera?


“chimera, in genetics, an organism or tissue that contains at least two different sets of DNA, most often originating from the fusion of as many different zygotes (fertilized eggs). The term is derived from the Chimera of Greek mythology, a fire-breathing monster that was part lion, part goat, and part dragon.
Encyclopedia Britannica › science
chimera | Genetics, Symptoms, & Microchimeras - Encyclopedia Britannica


The first human chimera was reported in 1953. Natural chimeras can arise in various ways. Fetal and maternal cells can cross the placental barrier so that both mother and child may become microchimeras. Two zygotes can fuse together during an early embryonic stage to form a fusion chimera.
View attachment 332754
ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books. › pii
Natural human chimeras: A review - ScienceDirect

—

Thinking out loud more, what about nonsecretors?

“What is a non secretor in forensics?


What does it mean to be a non secretor?

Secretor status refers to the presence or absence of water-soluble ABO blood group antigens in a person's bodily fluids, such as saliva, tears, breast milk, urine, and semen. People who secrete these antigens in their bodily fluids are referred to as secretors, while people who do not are termed non-secretors.
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki › Sec...
Secretor status - Wikipedia


But if someone is a non-secretor (non-secretors make up between 15% and 25% of the population), though they may leave some semblance of a fingerprint behind, there's usually not enough DNA/information within it to identify the criminal.Jul 18, 2017”

—

Chimera: In medicine, a person composed of two genetically distinct types of cells. Human chimeras were first discovered with the advent of blood typing when it was found that some people had more than one blood type. ... About 8% of non-identical twin pairs are chimeras.Jun 3, 2021
https://www.medicinenet.com › defi...
Medical Definition of Chimera - MedicineNet

 

[Charlot123]

Thinking out loud about DNA and two sketches, I’m remembering something from an old Forensic Files.

Chimera?


“chimera, in genetics, an organism or tissue that contains at least two different sets of DNA, most often originating from the fusion of as many different zygotes (fertilized eggs). The term is derived from the Chimera of Greek mythology, a fire-breathing monster that was part lion, part goat, and part dragon.
Encyclopedia Britannica › science
chimera | Genetics, Symptoms, & Microchimeras - Encyclopedia Britannica


The first human chimera was reported in 1953. Natural chimeras can arise in various ways. Fetal and maternal cells can cross the placental barrier so that both mother and child may become microchimeras. Two zygotes can fuse together during an early embryonic stage to form a fusion chimera.
View attachment 332754
ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books. › pii
Natural human chimeras: A review - ScienceDirect

—

Thinking out loud more, what about nonsecretors?

“What is a non secretor in forensics?


What does it mean to be a non secretor?

Secretor status refers to the presence or absence of water-soluble ABO blood group antigens in a person's bodily fluids, such as saliva, tears, breast milk, urine, and semen. People who secrete these antigens in their bodily fluids are referred to as secretors, while people who do not are termed non-secretors.
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki › Sec...
Secretor status - Wikipedia


But if someone is a non-secretor (non-secretors make up between 15% and 25% of the population), though they may leave some semblance of a fingerprint behind, there's usually not enough DNA/information within it to identify the criminal.Jul 18, 2017”

—

Chimera: In medicine, a person composed of two genetically distinct types of cells. Human chimeras were first discovered with the advent of blood typing when it was found that some people had more than one blood type. ... About 8% of non-identical twin pairs are chimeras.Jun 3, 2021
https://www.medicinenet.com › defi...
Medical Definition of Chimera - MedicineNet

Interesting


Chimerism: Definition, Symptoms, Testing, Diagnosis, and More

True chimerism in humans is rare; on the other hand, it may also be not always detected.

While there have been no cases of IVF treatment resulting in chimerism, theoretically, it is possible

people who received bone marrow donation are, by default, chimeras

More interesting, what if fuzed zygotes of paternal twins are of both male/female genders? Then, the person will end up, say, with 70% male/30% female DNA (physically, he might have traits of intersex, but look predominantly male). But, depending on circumstances, a male-looking chimera might leave, say, female DNA?

Microchimerism (in pregnant women) can, actually, be used in criminology. In dead bodies of pregnant women, fetal cells are cleared from maternal blood very rapidly, but stay in liver, or brain, or eye, tissue up to one month. (This fact needs to be remembered by the pathologist).

 

[Charlot123]

Thinking out loud about DNA and two sketches, I’m remembering something from an old Forensic Files.

Chimera?


“chimera, in genetics, an organism or tissue that contains at least two different sets of DNA, most often originating from the fusion of as many different zygotes (fertilized eggs). The term is derived from the Chimera of Greek mythology, a fire-breathing monster that was part lion, part goat, and part dragon.
Encyclopedia Britannica › science
chimera | Genetics, Symptoms, & Microchimeras - Encyclopedia Britannica


The first human chimera was reported in 1953. Natural chimeras can arise in various ways. Fetal and maternal cells can cross the placental barrier so that both mother and child may become microchimeras. Two zygotes can fuse together during an early embryonic stage to form a fusion chimera.
View attachment 332754
ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books. › pii
Natural human chimeras: A review - ScienceDirect

—

Thinking out loud more, what about nonsecretors?

“What is a non secretor in forensics?


What does it mean to be a non secretor?

Secretor status refers to the presence or absence of water-soluble ABO blood group antigens in a person's bodily fluids, such as saliva, tears, breast milk, urine, and semen. People who secrete these antigens in their bodily fluids are referred to as secretors, while people who do not are termed non-secretors.
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki › Sec...
Secretor status - Wikipedia


But if someone is a non-secretor (non-secretors make up between 15% and 25% of the population), though they may leave some semblance of a fingerprint behind, there's usually not enough DNA/information within it to identify the criminal.Jul 18, 2017”

—

Chimera: In medicine, a person composed of two genetically distinct types of cells. Human chimeras were first discovered with the advent of blood typing when it was found that some people had more than one blood type. ... About 8% of non-identical twin pairs are chimeras.Jun 3, 2021
https://www.medicinenet.com › defi...
Medical Definition of Chimera - MedicineNet

About a non-secretor: for some odd reason, Chikatilo, the manic serial killer, got into this group. His situation was very odd, as his blood group was type A, and the sperm, AB. Technically, not a non-secretor, rather, a hypersecretor, and I could never understand how it could happen. Many journalists thought it was an initial lab mistake made when typing sperm, and it was precisely while he was once let go (as LE were looking for AB blood group carrier). Now I am thinking, if Chicatilo was a chimera, this could have happened. (He was exceptionally odd since birth, “something was not right”, in many ways, with him. Academically, quite gifted, though, as far as I could glean from different articles).

 

[Yemelyan]

Thinking out loud about DNA and two sketches, I’m remembering something from an old Forensic Files.

Chimera?


“chimera, in genetics, an organism or tissue that contains at least two different sets of DNA, most often originating from the fusion of as many different zygotes (fertilized eggs). The term is derived from the Chimera of Greek mythology, a fire-breathing monster that was part lion, part goat, and part dragon.
Encyclopedia Britannica › science
chimera | Genetics, Symptoms, & Microchimeras - Encyclopedia Britannica


The first human chimera was reported in 1953. Natural chimeras can arise in various ways. Fetal and maternal cells can cross the placental barrier so that both mother and child may become microchimeras. Two zygotes can fuse together during an early embryonic stage to form a fusion chimera.
View attachment 332754
ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books. › pii
Natural human chimeras: A review - ScienceDirect

—

Thinking out loud more, what about nonsecretors?

“What is a non secretor in forensics?


What does it mean to be a non secretor?

Secretor status refers to the presence or absence of water-soluble ABO blood group antigens in a person's bodily fluids, such as saliva, tears, breast milk, urine, and semen. People who secrete these antigens in their bodily fluids are referred to as secretors, while people who do not are termed non-secretors.
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki › Sec...
Secretor status - Wikipedia


But if someone is a non-secretor (non-secretors make up between 15% and 25% of the population), though they may leave some semblance of a fingerprint behind, there's usually not enough DNA/information within it to identify the criminal.Jul 18, 2017”

—

Chimera: In medicine, a person composed of two genetically distinct types of cells. Human chimeras were first discovered with the advent of blood typing when it was found that some people had more than one blood type. ... About 8% of non-identical twin pairs are chimeras.Jun 3, 2021
https://www.medicinenet.com › defi...
Medical Definition of Chimera - MedicineNet

Not trying to throw cold water on your ideas but just to give a little more info about the two things you are speculating about....

Human chimeras, while we don't know about every case of one, are thought to be extremely rare (from the Science Direct article that you quoted, you'll see that only 100 humans have ever been found to have this condition over the last 70 years). So for this reason, while chimerism could explain the apparent "lack" of usable DNA in the Delphi case (I put lack in quotes because we are assuming this is so; we really don't know what investigators have), a far more common occurrence is more likely, and that's just that any DNA at the scene from the offender was not in good shape by the time it was collected. Though the girls were found the next day, they laid outside all night in what I'd guess, were wet and sub-optimal conditions for any DNA that was on surfaces because of dew collecting, etc.

Next, non-secretors. Modern DNA technology has rendered the secretor vs non-secretor thing from the early days of forensics obsolete. This was a big deal back when DNA was unknown for forensic work and the only thing body fluids could tell you was the blood type of the perpetrator. But nowadays blood group type isn't even one of the areas of the genome that are sampled for purposes of CODIS - it's not an area of our DNA that is variable enough to be useful for this.

Think about what non-secretor status actually is. A non-secretor has a gene that prevents blood type antigens (which are a type of carbohydrate called an oligosaccharide) from being expressed in other body fluids like semen, sweat and saliva. But because the carbohydrates that mark your blood type are not in your saliva (for example), does NOT mean that your DNA doesn't exist in these fluids. You will still have cheek cells floating in your saliva that have the full complement of your DNA. In fact, commercial DNA testing services like 23andMe allow users to test their saliva sample for secretor status. How could they do this if, when the non-secretors spit in a cup, no DNA was left behind?

About twenty percent of the population are non-secretors. They are not exempt from leaving usable DNA behind them. If, for example, a non-secretor male leaves semen at a crime scene, the sperm cells in that sample (as long as undamaged by water, etc) will have genetic material in them that can be developed into a DNA profile. It will not matter at all that his blood group antigens are not also being expressed in the semen sample - the genes that encode them will still be there in the nuclei of sperm, just as the gene that turns their expression on and off is there too.

 

[Laughing]

Not looking for a link, but IIRC, bone cancer treatment involves essentially a transplant of bone marrow cells that produce blood cells. After treatment, a person's blood cells may have one set of DNA, while hair & skin have a different set.

Anyone else hear of this?

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Yemelyan]

Not looking for a link, but IIRC, bone cancer treatment involves essentially a transplant of bone marrow cells that produce blood cells. After treatment, a person's blood cells may have one set of DNA, while hair & skin have a different set.

Anyone else hear of this?

jmho ymmv lrr

What you've stated here is partially true IMO...likely a percentage of blood cells in any given sample would be of the donor type while some other percentage of blood cells (and all other cells in the body) would be the original genetic material. This is actually something (amount of chimerism, I mean) that they test for post-transplant in order to gauge the success of the treatment.

The good thing is that in a lot of forensic samples you don't have just a single cell to work with or even a single cell type. For example, a sample from a sexual assault might contain both sperm and epithelial cells from the offender.

With the chimera scenario, IMO, you start to get into really small probabilities....sure, it's not impossible. But first, you have a person who abducts and murders two young children (one of the rarest types of crimes), then added onto that, the person responsible is a bone marrow recipient or a naturally arising chimera, and then added onto that, the level of chimerism is so complicated that it cannot be resolved in DNA typing.

 

[TL4S]

With the impending anniversary nearly here, I'm noting the frustration. Out of desperation over these five years, we have turned BG into an almost supernatural being. We've theorized all kinds of physical and mental ailments, even some that would likely negate the possibility of him traversing the bridge and woods, at all. We've made him a genetic mutant. We've had him disguised and cunning and heavily weighed down with kill kit. We've had him design a whole theatrical set at the crime scene, and using every mode of transportation from semi to motorbike to hoverboard. We've had him full of trickery and baby animals. We've put him between 16 and 85 years old, 100 to 300 pounds and 5'1" to 6'4" tall. We've made him responsible for every serious crime committed in the region over the last ten years. Somewhere in this mess is probably the reality.

I'm not denigrating people's ideas. We are all just trying pieces together to see if they fit. The simplest way from point A to point B might not always be a straight line, but we can't forget that as an option. BG might just not be all that special. Either way, he needs to be held accountable.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

What you've stated here is partially true IMO...likely a percentage of blood cells in any given sample would be of the donor type while some other percentage of blood cells (and all other cells in the body) would be the original genetic material. This is actually something (amount of chimerism, I mean) that they test for post-transplant in order to gauge the success of the treatment.

The good thing is that in a lot of forensic samples you don't have just a single cell to work with or even a single cell type. For example, a sample from a sexual assault might contain both sperm and epithelial cells from the offender.

With the chimera scenario, IMO, you start to get into really small probabilities....sure, it's not impossible. But first, you have a person who abducts and murders two young children (one of the rarest types of crimes), then added onto that, the person responsible is a bone marrow recipient or a naturally arising chimera, and then added onto that, the level of chimerism is so complicated that it cannot be resolved in DNA typing.

I don’t know about what anyone else thinks about you/your posts but WOW I truly and sincerely appreciate your posts. Yem you are a spectacular blessing to us here on WS/on this case thread! Thank you for sharing your detailed and extensive knowledge with us.

JMVHO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

With the impending anniversary nearly here, I'm noting the frustration. Out of desperation over these five years, we have turned BG into an almost supernatural being. We've theorized all kinds of physical and mental disabilities, even some that would likely negate the possibility of him traversing the bridge and woods, at all. We've made him a genetic mutant. We've had him disguised and cunning and heavily weighed down with kill kit. We've had him design a whole theatrical set at the crime scene, and using every mode of transportation from semi to motorbike to hoverboard. We've had him full of trickery and baby animals. We've put him between 16 and 85 years old, 100 to 300 pounds and 5'1" to 6'4" tall. We've made him responsible for every serious crime committed in the region over the last ten years. Somewhere in this mess is probably the reality.

I'm not denigrating people's ideas. We are all just trying pieces together to see if they fit. The simplest way from point A to point B might not always be a straight line, but we can't forget that as an option. BG might just not be all that special. Either way, he needs to be held accountable.

This is the truth and well said.

 

[LeBlack]

Not looking for a link, but IIRC, bone cancer treatment involves essentially a transplant of bone marrow cells that produce blood cells. After treatment, a person's blood cells may have one set of DNA, while hair & skin have a different set.

Anyone else hear of this?

jmho ymmv lrr

Yes.

Rh Negative mothers are given Rhogam to prevent a reaction up to and including rejection/miscarriage to a Rh positive fetus. In order for this to happen the 2 must come in contact with each other.

All of the pregnancy related chimeras would (theoretically) be related at 25-50% level.

 

[distracted]

With the impending anniversary nearly here, I'm noting the frustration. Out of desperation over these five years, we have turned BG into an almost supernatural being. We've theorized all kinds of physical and mental ailments, even some that would likely negate the possibility of him traversing the bridge and woods, at all. We've made him a genetic mutant. We've had him disguised and cunning and heavily weighed down with kill kit. We've had him design a whole theatrical set at the crime scene, and using every mode of transportation from semi to motorbike to hoverboard. We've had him full of trickery and baby animals. We've put him between 16 and 85 years old, 100 to 300 pounds and 5'1" to 6'4" tall. We've made him responsible for every serious crime committed in the region over the last ten years. Somewhere in this mess is probably the reality.

I'm not denigrating people's ideas. We are all just trying pieces together to see if they fit. The simplest way from point A to point B might not always be a straight line, but we can't forget that as an option. BG might just not be all that special. Either way, he needs to be held accountable.

That's why they haven't identified him. He was most likely very average - average height, average weight, average looking, and the list goes on and on. People saw him and didn't pay any attention to him because he fit right in. He didn't stand out in any way.

Looking like an average guy may have been intentional or he's just very, very lucky no one paid any attention to him that day - except, unfortunately, Libby and Abby.