Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

[Tower]

RSBM

..like instinctively if you are looking for girls lost and possibly hurt and out of earshot.
it's odd to me they were not found that night and makes me question what all went on during the night and one of the girls was possibly taken away and returned . Taken away where? I don't know...and how would he dare bring her back? but I still have to question everything that happened that night..

RSBM

was the park under surveillance through the night?

The amount of time before they were found bothers me, too. I brought this up way back in a previous thread, but in my area, search and rescue would absolutely search through the night for girls in the winter. Even in a small town, how could they not devote resources to finding these girls?

They had no history of running away, they were in a trail/outdoor area, it was winter, they were not dressed properly and the assumption was they could be injured. I’m stunned that at least a small group of police or rangers weren’t out looking all night. They say the girls passed quickly, but no one knew that until much later! Moo

 

[minazoe]

and also if you thought they might be hurt wouldn't you search along the water? to make sure they had not drowned or been hurt down there by the water?? It got dark..everyone running around with flashlights..chaos..
no tracking dogs..and you know he could slip right in and help look..whatever..knowing they are hidden and maybe one is not even there..the whole thing was bad..well intended but bad..I would venture a small sensible group with proper lighting and dogs could have located these girls within an hour. If they were in fact there..mOO

 

[TL4S]

I don't know why but I just feel like the first place you would go would be the bridge and you'd go across and then down that hill so you could look for the girls under and around the bridge area..like instinctively if you are looking for girls lost and possibly hurt and out of earshot.
it's odd to me they were not found that night and makes me question what all went on during the night and one of the girls was possibly taken away and returned . Taken away where? I don't know...and how would he dare bring her back? but I still have to question everything that happened that night..because we just don't know..
but I definitely think he was on the scene..maybe he left and came back and then he left and came back again..
if you came in through the cemetery you could avoid the bridge altogether correct? was the park under surveillance through the night?

where did he find the time to install all of his signatures and staging and be able to enjoy it all.. ?

I don't trust any of the info we have, not because the cops lie to us , but they really cannot tell us the details, the details are too important.. the whole case has gone dark. mOO

Imo, the girls were likely not taken anywhere other than between the bridge and wherever they were killed.

Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”

New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[MollyDDD]

RSBM



The amount of time before they were found bothers me, too. I brought this up way back in a previous thread, but in my area, search and rescue would absolutely search through the night for girls in the winter. Even in a small town, how could they not devote resources to finding these girls?

They had no history of running away, they were in a trail/outdoor area, it was winter, they were not dressed properly and the assumption was they could be injured. I’m stunned that at least a small group of police or rangers weren’t out looking all night. They say the girls passed quickly, but no one knew that until much later! Moo

I agree. There was no excuse for LE to leave that night.
Bring in the fire department, emergency rescue team, put up the giant search lights, emergency heaters and tents. Bundle up for the night fellows. We’ve got two missing little girls in the woods!!! Who the H*** goes home and sleeps that night??? Time is precious, lives are at stake, loved ones are worried sick, but LE goes home for the night? Something is very wrong with this whole thing. IMO

 

[Peppery]

I really, really hate to bring this up again, but it was said by LG’s grandfather that her phone was pinging all over town (now proven untrue). Pretty sure that was on the 2/13/17 11pm new cast. The official search was called off at midnight. Many of the searchers were regular citizens with no training, the terrain was rough, it was pitch black, and the last thing LE/fire department needed was more injuries. Imo, LE and the girls families honestly thought the girls had gone to a friends house and forgot to call or L lost her phone or something equally benign. The idea that they were lying dead half a mile away probably never crossed their minds as possible.

 

[Peppery]

I agree. There was no excuse for LE to leave that night.
Bring in the fire department, emergency rescue team, put up the giant search lights, emergency heaters and tents. Bundle up for the night fellows. We’ve got two missing little girls in the woods!!! Who the H*** goes home and sleeps that night??? Time is precious, lives are at stake, loved ones are worried sick, but LE goes home for the night? Something is very wrong with this whole thing. IMO

Except Delphi didn’t have those resources. The fire department was there, along with half the town. Multiple people did continue to search throughout the night. The FD chief did an interview a few years ago and if you read it, you’ll see that no one just threw up their hands and went to bed. A lot of facts seem to be forgotten lately.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

and also if you thought they might be hurt wouldn't you search along the water? to make sure they had not drowned or been hurt down there by the water?? It got dark..everyone running around with flashlights..chaos..
no tracking dogs..and you know he could slip right in and help look..whatever..knowing they are hidden and maybe one is not even there..the whole thing was bad..well intended but bad..I would venture a small sensible group with proper lighting and dogs could have located these girls within an hour. If they were in fact there..mOO

I’ve often wondered if the killer was in the search party if he might have kinda steered people away from where the girls were so they weren’t found that night.
Perhaps he was telling folks, “I’ve already looked over there, you don’t need to look again”. Maybe that’s where the rumors came from about the bodies were found in a place that had been looked at before.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I really, really hate to bring this up again, but it was said by LG’s grandfather that her phone was pinging all over town (now proven untrue). Pretty sure that was on the 2/13/17 11pm new cast. The official search was called off at midnight. Many of the searchers were regular citizens with no training, the terrain was rough, it was pitch black, and the last thing LE/fire department needed was more injuries. Imo, LE and the girls families honestly thought the girls had gone to a friends house and forgot to call or L lost her phone or something equally benign. The idea that they were lying dead half a mile away probably never crossed their minds as possible.

I agree that no one expected the girls had been murdered.
But by the time midnight rolls around with no word from them, and I had already called around to friends looking for them, I would have thought they were injured and not dressed for a cold night and in real danger because of that. I would have thanked regular people who came to help and sent them home, that makes sense. It doesn’t make sense to me for LE and FD to leave.

 

[Prime8]

I don't know why but I just feel like the first place you would go would be the bridge and you'd go across and then down that hill so you could look for the girls under and around the bridge area..like instinctively if you are looking for girls lost and possibly hurt and out of earshot.

They did search that area that night but that's not exactly where the girls were found. Once you're down the hill, you go across a private drive, across the creek and they were in a low part of the woods.

Many police and fire fighters remained searching through the night. The official search was ended, not the actual search. Remember that police and fire fighting are jobs, jobs have risk analysis, they have safety standards. I have a family member who is a fight fighter and unlike television, they aren't allowed to rush into a burning buildings if the risk is too great to their life. People are thinking about this with emotion (which is okay) but they also have to think about it in a practical, job safety sense. People also should remember that a lot of kids go "missing" every day who end up being a-okay. That's not to say that people don't need to take it seriously, it's just to say that the full-force of state's resource can't be brought out in the first hour every time it happens.

Should more have been done to bring in the right equipment for a safe search that night? Maybe, yes, but that's in hindsight.

 

[rosesfromangels]

If the Perp committed another crime after Libby & Abby that landed them in prison *before* 2018....they might be sitting in prison unbeknownst. Meaning, no DNA sample. Something to consider.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...rrested-on-felony-charges-starting-in-january

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[paraphrase]

and also if you thought they might be hurt wouldn't you search along the water? to make sure they had not drowned or been hurt down there by the water?? It got dark..everyone running around with flashlights..chaos..
no tracking dogs..and you know he could slip right in and help look..whatever..knowing they are hidden and maybe one is not even there..the whole thing was bad..well intended but bad..I would venture a small sensible group with proper lighting and dogs could have located these girls within an hour. If they were in fact there..mOO

Good questions.
Is it possible one of the girls was pushed off the bridge?
The killer would then order the other girl down the hill? Has this theory been discussed?

 

[Yemelyan]

and also if you thought they might be hurt wouldn't you search along the water? to make sure they had not drowned or been hurt down there by the water?? It got dark..everyone running around with flashlights..chaos..
no tracking dogs..and you know he could slip right in and help look..whatever..knowing they are hidden and maybe one is not even there..the whole thing was bad..well intended but bad..I would venture a small sensible group with proper lighting and dogs could have located these girls within an hour. If they were in fact there..mOO

IMO they did have the thought that the girls might be injured in or near the water, but they looked downstream (towards the town of Delphi, in the direction that they might have floated if incapacitated or might have purposely walked if injured/lost), not upstream. If you listen to the interviews by Jason Hebert of MP and BP, they describe the thought process of the searchers that night and how the downstream banks and creek were searched by MP, law enforcement and others.

When I first started reading about this case, I assumed that "some searchers remained and searched all night" meant that they were combing through the woods around the bridge and I also wondered how no one stumbled upon the scene that night. However, if you listen to interviews with the family they clearly show that by a certain point, up until the early morning hours, everyone was convinced that the girls had walked away from the trails area. Even family members were focusing their search on various points in town - not the bridge - that night. BP herself, when the call came in on the 14th that they were found, was searching in a farm field that was on a route they felt the girls might have walked if heading home. She had to be driven back to the trails.

Most of LE decision-making that night came down to the fact that abduction and close removal across and upstream of the creek was not one of the scenarios that was high on the list of possibilities, all hindsight notwithstanding.

 

[JnRyan]

If LE didn’t cancel the search dogs, could have that provided them with any other clues?

The sheriff, in his interview last February with HLN, stated that cancelling the search dogs was something he regrets. Could they have tracked the killer's route from the crime scene? We'll never know now.

 

[MollyDDD]

I really, really hate to bring this up again, but it was said by LG’s grandfather that her phone was pinging all over town (now proven untrue). Pretty sure that was on the 2/13/17 11pm new cast. The official search was called off at midnight. Many of the searchers were regular citizens with no training, the terrain was rough, it was pitch black, and the last thing LE/fire department needed was more injuries. Imo, LE and the girls families honestly thought the girls had gone to a friends house and forgot to call or L lost her phone or something equally benign. The idea that they were lying dead half a mile away probably never crossed their minds as possible.

Please refresh my memory, do you know why LG’s grandfather said that if it wasn’t true? IMO

 

[MollyDDD]

They did search that area that night but that's not exactly where the girls were found. Once you're down the hill, you go across a private drive, across the creek and they were in a low part of the woods.

Many police and fire fighters remained searching through the night. The official search was ended, not the actual search. Remember that police and fire fighting are jobs, jobs have risk analysis, they have safety standards. I have a family member who is a fight fighter and unlike television, they aren't allowed to rush into a burning buildings if the risk is too great to their life. People are thinking about this with emotion (which is okay) but they also have to think about it in a practical, job safety sense. People also should remember that a lot of kids go "missing" every day who end up being a-okay. That's not to say that people don't need to take it seriously, it's just to say that the full-force of state's resource can't be brought out in the first hour every time it happens.

Should more have been done to bring in the right equipment for a safe search that night? Maybe, yes, but that's in hindsight.

Looks like the town and the people of Delphi have learned a lot of lessons, but sadly at the expense of two innocent victims. IMO

 

[MollyDDD]

Except Delphi didn’t have those resources. The fire department was there, along with half the town. Multiple people did continue to search throughout the night. The FD chief did an interview a few years ago and if you read it, you’ll see that no one just threw up their hands and went to bed. A lot of facts seem to be forgotten lately.

Oh, okay.

 

[Charlot123]

And I can't really say - was he REALLY this good or just VERY lucky?

The premise that he killed very quickly and may have not left his DNA leads me to believe he used a gun. And if used a revolver and not a semi-auto there are no spent shell cases. (Trying to ID a gun using the spent bullet is not as easy as Hollywood would have us believe. A badly mangled bullet, especially a .22, can be impossible to trace to a specific gun. Supposedly, per the expert testimony in the Warren Commission, Lee Harvey Oswald's .38 COULD have been used to kill DPD Officer Tippett, but not a definite match as one example.) Of course, he could have been really good at policing his brass if he used a semi-auto. However, from my hunting experience, I've had difficulty finding a shotgun shell in the fallen leaves so a .22 or even a 9mm might be buried in the leaves out of his sight.

I suppose he could have done like GSK and have one girl tie up the other and then he tied up that girl and went back over the first girl. Zodiac did the same with one of his killings as well. Then he could have killed without concerning himself with one of them running. But while this explains how he could have killed without using a gun, it would seem to leave open the question how he killed w/o leaving DNA. Wearing gloves would seem to minimize the chances, but it is no guarantee. Hair, unless it was blown away prior to being found, could have landed on one of the girls. He still has to use one hand to put on the first glove, leaving touch DNA susceptible to transfer - small chance but still possible.

If he used something other than a gun, I really can't say whether this killer was not very lucky. If he killed without a gun that leaves weapons - knife, strangulation cord, club - where he likely has contact with the victim. If he did that and was aware of the risk of DNA, then maybe he was very good. All in all, we don't know how long he was at the crime scene. I imagine LE does and is not saying. Personal opinion, but I believe that by the time Liberty's father arrived (3:15 PM?) the girls were not only deceased, but the killer was at least halfway to his vehicle if not at his vehicle already.

All of this is gruesome to even think about much less write.

This is it. I thought that unless it was a gun, everything else should have left some traces...
Unless he first thought of not contacting them, and this puts him in a very different group.

BTW, not necessarily a professional. However, I remember how in 2016-17, on genealogy forums, they mentioned FBI being interested in mitogroups. So a smart person reading these things, could easily put two and two together and understand that sooner or later, Gedmatch would stop being off-limits.

I don't know if he was gone by 3:15. I don't know how his real scenario differed from the official one. He must have been in a certain high, maybe he did not care if he were caught or not...he had a gun, after all.

I don’t think BG ever left the area. He stayed hidden until there were lots of people searching for the girls. He enjoyed all of the commotion, took photos of the crime scene for his own enjoyment from his hiding place. His presence when he joined the search would have been taken for granted as he is known in the community. I think this person had a police scanner he is issued through his work, prior to the murders and hearing the chatter on it the girls thought he was LE. He wasn’t imo. He also knew if real LE may have been busy at an accident or other call when he forced the girls off the bridge. Is there a way to find out who had police scanners at that time. I know they are not illegal but criminal use of them could happen in a small city.

The fact that we know so little about the case is a handicap. I think that not knowing, a targeted or random is a major problem.

A targeted would be about self-preservation. As to random, these guys are hedonistic, but probably, chronically suicidal, or, at least, not excluding such possibility. So they might be more unpredictable and bold. Could stay there through the night, could risk.

 

[MistyWaters]

If the Perp committed another crime after Libby & Abby that landed them in prison *before* 2018....they might be sitting in prison unbeknownst. Meaning, no DNA sample. Something to consider.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...rrested-on-felony-charges-starting-in-january

Amateur opinion and speculation

From your link.
“DNA samples are already collected from convicted felons in the state of Indiana but Senate Enrolled Act 322 will require samples to be collected during felony arrests.”

Assumably anyone sitting in prison before 2018 has already been convicted of a felony. The above change refers to DNA can legally be taken during a felony arrest.

 

[carbuff]

does anyone know why it was decided that this suspect was not a go?
Daniel Nations no longer a major concern in Delphi murders
https://www.kktv.com › content › news › Nations-no-long...
Feb 14, 2018 — Daniel Nations, the man once considered a person of interest in the Delphi killings of two young girls, is not a major concern for ...

I read several of the old articles and LE investigated but abandoned him.
(Does that mean that there is enough DNA to exclude some suspects?)

I've wondered about this myself. I did some digging into DN's past, and the geographic pattern of other crimes he's accused of committing, and found some worrisome stuff. If it wasn't that ISP went clear out to Colorado to interview him, and came back saying they weren't very interested in him, he would still be my number one suspect.

 

[carbuff]

Touch DNA isn't as easily obtained as TV shows and hopeful articles make it sound.