Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #144

[mom2chloe]

From the beginning of this horror story, I have believed Valentine's Day was a trigger as you say.

Possibly a couple members of the lonely guys club who have no Valentines to celebrate with? IMO

 

[Boxer]

Backtracking a bit to mention/question one point regarding the FBI removing height, specifically, from the FBI poster:

Reference:

Some suspect info removed from FBI poster on Delphi killings | wthr.com

"The Delphi Task Force requested the FBI to remove the physical descriptors listed on the flyer. Investigators do not want to discourage or stop the public from submitting a tip because the person does not specifically meet the height, weight, and age description. Investigators would like the public to focus on the photo of the man on the bridge, the voice recording, and second sketch that was released by law enforcement."

I understand what they’re saying, but I thought the height is a variable that is determined/calculated via a scientific method. I remember from the old Forensic Files, etc. they were able to ascertain a subject’s height, for example someone in Walmart surveillance footage, via a mathematical/calculative approach. Iirc, there’s a specific name for this and I can not remember what it is right now. But my point is, isn’t the height something that is definitive, based on evaluating distance, etc.? So why would they want tips on subjects who may not be this height? Obviously there is more room for variance wrt age and weight, but is there actually room for error with the original height estimate? I’m not quite understanding how the height could vary in this instance and appreciate feedback on this.

—

Eta: A quick google of height determination as related to suspects in video footage reveals many results; this link appears to mention what I’m thinking about:

How Video Forensic Experts Determine Height in Images and Videos | ncavf.com

“Enhanced photo from a crime scene. NCAVF used advanced 3D rendering software to build a model of the crime scene, compare that model to frames from surveillance video, and determine the height of a suspect.

The science of measuring height in photographs (or from video frames) is called photogrammetry. NCAVF is able to utilize these forensic techniques. This process can only be done after some aspect of successful crime scene reconstruction. The four main methods of measuring height are:

1. 3D Modeling of the Perpetrator,
2. 3D Modeling of the Crime Scene,
3. Reverse Projection Photogrammetry, and
4. Single View Metrology (Vanishing Points).”

Eta2: “Photo Gammetry”!! That’s what I was thinking of!!! I thought this was an exact science, maybe it’s not? Furthermore, IF there could be a variance of say a few inches even, wouldn’t they at least be able to provide a range? Now they could get tips of someone who is, say 5’5”. Why would they open themselves up to this if there is no way that could be the man on the bridge?

—-

Eta3: Even before the advancement of “3D” technology, I think the height of a perp is something that could be ascertained pretty easily even without all the fancy technology.

—-

Eta4: More from the above link, there is a lot at that link, worth a read, imo:

“Three challenges are often faced while determining the height of a person in any type of surveillance imagery or videos:

1. Camera and Lens Calibration,
2. Lens Distortion, and
3. Techniques used by criminals to manipulate appearance of height.”

Given the scramble.of images the video was assembled from, MOO an error in height could have been made.

 

[margarita25]

I personally don't think KAK or his father did this. This crime was perpetrated by a very smart and technologically savvy man, IMO. I am not of the belief that KAK or his dad are that. This perp is a very intelligent guy who has managed to cover his tracks well enough to stay free and clear of LE's radar for many years despite possibly the largest investigation in Indiana state history.

IMO, my “guess” has always been, as I’ve said before, that I don’t think the killer is necessarily very technically savvy, but could be savvy enough to participate in cp/csam. IMO, one wouldn’t necessarily have to be very, very tech savvy if all they had to do was download a certain program, browser, and click view or share. Yes, there is a lot of scrutiny as far as LE looking for this type of activity, but “birds of a feather” would share and probably help and advise each other what to do and not do to avoid being caught. There could be many ways think they could share files that would fall under LEs radar, because it happens all the time. I’m sure not all of these who participate in such activities are computer geniuses, jmo.

 

[DeDee]

I also wonder if JBC specifically was there.

Interesting thought, Margarita. I don't think JBC could pay the monthly dues on time to belong in a MC though. It's possible he could scrape up enough for the entry fee. Gosh, this is dredging up old memories.

There were numerous videos of the motorcycle ride event. MSM had videographers stationed almost the entire route. Lots of live footage as they gathered downtown for the ride before it began. Reporters were at the G's homestead for an interview when MP arrived home after riding.

Many motorcycle clubs participated. A couple are notorious for criminal activity. Some came out of OH. Some wore their "gang" colors or jackets with their Clubs emblems. Some are family friendly.

Sometimes a killer likes to participate in searches or revisit the CS. So, when the ride was announced, about a half dozen went downstairs after deciding to check them out with one goal in mind. It was tedious and quite emotional to work on the lengthy and arduous task.

MClubs have bylaws they follow, monthly or bi-monthly meetings, newsletters... Most are not shy about posting photos to SM. We did not tip on one individual IDed as most led to dead ends for one reason or the other.

"Organizers estimate around 4,000 motorcyclists attended the event."

Motorcycle ride in Delphi benefits families of teenage murder victims | Fox 59

"One of our brothers needed us,” he said. “They needed somebody, and look here at the turnout. This right here is what America is all about. It’s what America was built on.”

$20 per motorcycle...

Benefit ride brings thousands to Delphi

 

[Kell1]

I wonder if LE are trying to get a "short list" of folks who were associated with the account.



When we have no idea what BG looks like...

Good point.

Theyre absolutely trying to rule people out, thats how you conduct an investigation, but you have a suspect saying that he was the only one who had access to the account, but denies its him just short of the murders.

Its just way too convenient

 

[Kell1]

Also since literally no crime is committed on video , its all a circumstantial case, at this point as well.

 

[Trocroc9]

After reading the recently released KAK transcripts and all of this new information being let out recently I feel that TK and KAK will be involved in some significant manner. I’m not sure yet how closely they are involved but it is evident they are or ISP would not have released the Anthony_Shots youtube video asking for tips to the Abby and Libby tip line.

My current thinking is that they helped set BG up with these girls knowingly and feel culpable in some manner (hence the failed polygraph). Whether or not they knew what BG was capable of is a different matter. JMO. Is anyone else under this impression?

 

[Ozoner]

After reading the recently released KAK transcripts and all of this new information being let out recently I feel that TK and KAK will be involved in some significant manner. I’m not sure yet how closely they are involved but it is evident they are or ISP would not have released the Anthony_Shots youtube video asking for tips to the Abby and Libby tip line.

My current thinking is that they helped set BG up with these girls knowingly and feel culpable in some manner (hence the failed polygraph). Whether or not they knew what BG was capable of is a different matter. JMO. Is anyone else under this impression?

It's possible, but I also think it's possible that the interaction with the anthony_shots account will turn out to have been a red herring. It's a good lead, but it's too early to tell whether it will pan out. (Polygraph results are meaningless.)

I can't see either of the Klines being BG; they're both too big.

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

Does anyone know the path from the bridge to where the crime scene was found?I mean were they able to retrace footprints or anything like that?I figure probably not because of the search party but just asking.

 

[Prime8]

Would high adrenaline, hiking just prior to, or just the heightened situation change a person's voice?

It definitely could. The person could be breathless, talking faster, a little shake in the voice, maybe even more phlegmy. I'm not sure there's enough audio, or clear audio, that we could hear any of that though. I remember hearing a 911 call of someone who found a body of a loved one. People thought he sounded "too calm" but between his words you could hear him almost hyperventilating, it wasn't very loud but it was definitely there.

Hmm.Interesting.

I’ve got an idea to try an experiment. It’s been a while since I’ve seen a real experiment on WS, and there have been some good ones over the years, one person even took some pills iirc lol.

Idea: Record “Guy, Down the hill” on my cell in different controlled environments/distances...phone in pocket, covered by fabric, different days, etc. I wonder how much my voice might vary, but this does not even take into account changes which may occur when technical methods are applied to remove background noise, make clearer, etc.

That's a good idea. There's an audio tool you can download for free called Audacity. I know it's available in the US, i'm not sure about other countries. There's a tool called "noise reduction" that will remove noise profiles. It's pretty simple to use and there are a lot of YouTube videos on the tools available.

 

[Trocroc9]

It's possible, but I also think it's possible that the interaction with the anthony_shots account will turn out to have been a red herring. It's a good lead, but it's too early to tell whether it will pan out. (Polygraph results are meaningless.)

I can't see either of the Klines being BG; they're both too big.

I completely agree. I think the big boys do not have the drive, stamina or perseverance to commit a crime like this. It’s too much for them. They are phone internet introverted boys.

I think BG is not this. He has done something like this in the past. Went out into the field and hurt people. It drives him. I’m not sure the Klines are all that driven. I think they like to be at home committing crimes. BG not so much.

 

[Falling Down]

I completely agree. I think the big boys do not have the drive, stamina or perseverance to commit a crime like this. It’s too much for them. They are phone internet introverted boys.

I think BG is not this. He has done something like this in the past. Went out into the field and hurt people. It drives him. I’m not sure the Klines are all that driven. I think they like to be at home committing crimes. BG not so much.

It's what I call a "jump", as in jumping from one type or set of crimes to serious ones like rape, murder, kidnapping, etc.

This case has opened up my eyes to a lot of things I'd never thought about, before, regarding criminal type minds. How many people fantasize about doing these types of deeds, say in the U.S., vs. how many actually try to carry out their violent fantasies? I'm still of the opinion this individual fantasized about doing what happened that day, perhaps for a considerable period of time. Then finally put the wheels in motion to carry out his fantasy. I wasn't aware that a lot of killers do just that, until I became active on this site and started following this and other cases.

JMO

 

[Trocroc9]

It's what I call a "jump", as in jumping from one type or set of crimes to serious ones like rape, murder, kidnapping, etc.

This case has opened up my eyes to a lot of things I'd never thought about, before, regarding criminal type minds. How many people fantasize about doing these types of deeds, say in the U.S., vs. how many actually try to carry out their violent fantasies? I'm still of the opinion this individual fantasized about doing what happened that day, perhaps for a considerable period of time. Then finally put the wheels in motion to carry out his fantasy. I wasn't aware that a lot of killers do just that, until I became active on this site and started following this and other cases.

JMO

All jmo but I do not yet feel the Klines have the motivation for a crime like this but I do think they are involved in some manner. Enough to run away to Vegas. They know something. They ran from something. But what is yet to be determined. I think it will have to do with a Dropbox or another person accessing the account discussed in the transcripts and I feel it will have more to do with an acquaintance of the older Kline. I still do wonder if KAK was present during the crime and I question whether he knew of what would transpire.

 

[Always Stay Hopeful]

Possibly a couple members of the lonely guys club who have no Valentines to celebrate with? IMO

I've thought of that. Or maybe a guy who went through a breakup recently who had feelings of anger or betrayal, someone who had a hard time dating or meeting women, maybe someone who was in a relationship that was unsatisfying to him. I've also wondered if it was someone who felt hatred towards women/girls, or viewed them in a particular way.

 

[vapefe84]

Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[gitana1]

First, JMHO: "Where was (the phone) during the search?" Poppin' Fresh, the Felony Doughboy, hid it because he knew how incriminating it could be. A while back I told about the murder of a friend--the police overlooked a spent bullet from the murder weapon, underneath the bed my friend was murdered in. Didn't bother to look under the bed, murder committed during a burglary. :-( I don't know how long the police spent searching KAK's house the week after the murders but unless a team of a half-dozen cops spent a full day searching, that phone COULD have been hidden somewhere and missed. Then KAK said, "Oh, I found it!" because he knew the phone was an unresolved issue until found and studied.

But my big point was: "Wow, yes, I forgot that!" about TK's 2018 message: "My boy hasn't been home in two years!" Obviously a lie, and a clumsy one at that, and you're right; it stinks. TK probably wouldn't have bothered to lie if he had not been *covering up something*. Thus: TK was painfully aware that KAK's presence in the area in Feb 2017 was a big ol' red flag, and he lied to try to cover it up. He didn't do a very good job of it, either.

I said elsewhere: I'm still not saying KAK *is* the murderer. But the more I toss it around in my tiny little brain, the more reasons I find to think he very well COULD have been the murderer. As in (JMHO), clearly the most likely choice, given what I know about the case. Adding more people, planning, conspiracies, motives--you can make it more complicated but "KAK felt so inadequate that he wound up murdering two girls he had been catfishing (deliberately or during a rape attempt)" is the simplest explanation I see these days. Your reminder of TK's stupid lie adds weight to that. Again, JMHO.

I haven’t followed this case in a long, long time. Can someone give me a rundown on KAK and his dad?
What info we have about them. How do we know what their voices sound like. Where are they now.

I’m sure others have noticed the resemblance between the dad and BG.

 

[JnRyan]

It's possible, but I also think it's possible that the interaction with the anthony_shots account will turn out to have been a red herring. It's a good lead, but it's too early to tell whether it will pan out. (Polygraph results are meaningless.)

I can't see either of the Klines being BG; they're both too big.

In the beginning, I could see a possible connection to the murders. Since Feb 2017 or August 2020 (interviews), I'm seeing less and less of a connection between KAK and the murders. We're going on years now and still no arrest. I suppose it might take a while for LE to make a connection and an arrest based on anthony_shots, but the longer it takes the less likely I see a connection. A red herring is looking more likely at this point.

 

[squareandrabbet]

Would high adrenaline, hiking just prior to, or just the heightened situation change a person's voice?

I've been thinking of the BG sound quality/effect as "thick with sexual excitement".

I apologize for even having to type it; but that's what I think.

 

[minazoe]

I don't think JBC had a motorcycle ..there would have been pics all over fb about his bike of him on his bike, making love to his bike etc...he's so predictable when it comes to showing off...his haircuts, cars, dogs, rings, tats, he's a total narcissist.

on KAK given some things that have been said about him I could see him fantasizing about killing for a long time...and possibly he was looking at the Sandy Hook photos not too long before
the murders happened..and these pictures motivate him or enhanced his fantasy.

looking at this. shot with his dad, I can kind of stuff him into the BG clothes...and see it's possible..
maybe he is wearing his dads clothing here. I wish they would have asked him if he has ever been on the MHB.

dude FAILED a poly. ( we don't know for sure ) but according to the interview he was told he failed.

I think when Carter said we would all be shocked , he may have been alluding to the "father and son" nature of this crime.

still though I think it's JBC. mOO

 

[Ozoner]

I've been thinking of the BG sound quality/effect as "thick with sexual excitement".

I apologize for even having to type it; but that's what I think.

The crime was almost certainly sexually motivated.

If neither girl was sexually assaulted, it might be because the girls tried to get away, so BG's fantasy didn't go according to plan. It's hard to see BG formulating a plan that involved crossing the creek and getting his feet, which makes me think that the girls might have been running away.

It's also possible that he made the girls lie down or kneel down in the creek so he could use them as a bridge and avoid getting his feet wet.