Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #144

[Boxer]

Wow, finally was able to listen to the latest MS podcast.

So TK had a dirt bike. Interesting. Of course a lot of people have dirt bikes. We don’t know that a dirt bike had anything to do with this crime, just following up on above post.

Interesting, at the beginning, when the thread was analysing BGs clothing I looked into BG shoes particularly.
IMO they are modern motorcycle boots, not old style chunky leather boots for riding hogs, but modern boots that resemble tennis or running shoes.
IMO the shoes are black with a possible strap over the laces and white "speed" stripe design element.

 

[Skigirl]

snipped by me for focus.
That’s interesting and not something I am familiar with. Would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit and also how that ties into you feeling confident that the video still is KAK?
Thank you

Just that I've spent a lot of time analyzing face images and using them in experiments, and manipulating images of them to appear various ways, running algorithms on them to change certain features, looking at the interaction with face and body movement/gait etc., and so I'm very familiar with how the view of one angle translates into the view of another angle, and what happens to face shape and features at certain ages and body weights. I've also done a lot with subliminal viewing times, affect, edge perception, perception of movement and other things that influence how we extract information from both still and moving images and for that reason, I'm able to pick things out of digital images faster than most people.

 

[Argonaut]

Could a dirt bike be put in a car to take to another location? I assume you can in a truck but I don't know about a car. A dirt bike would allow some on to move around quickly. Perp could get out of there pronto.

Didn't one of the girls live on N625W? A dirt bike rider in the area may be an exciting type to a 14 year old. There seems to be several pathways from town for a dirt bike that lead almost right up to the Monon Bridge. Google Maps

 

[FromGermany1]

KAK:
The man "all in black", of whom nobody knows, if truely seen or rumor (I believe the witness!), could have been rather KAK than this man on the MHB with his blue farmer's clothing, IMO. I can't think of KAK being so tricky and unpretentious to dress himself like that. If he planned to meet the girls indeed, I certainly wouldn't believe it, that he showed up like this.
IMO, the clothing of the person on MHB is the tricky idea of a man, who already had experiences with disguises and had to use them often to be private, so he didn't have a problem with his vanity at all.
I am open minded for all the suspects and every time thinking about each one thoroughly, when reading something, I didn't know before. KAK is a suspect, yes, and morally depraved -just as his father also-, but I believe, he isn't the BG (maybe part of a crew though).

 

[Megnut]

The car that was parked that afternoon, didn't LE say they got what they needed from that?

I'm trying to find any reference to that -- my memory is incomplete!

Grateful for anyone who can link that up for me.

JMO

 

[Laughing]

Could a dirt bike be put in a car to take to another location? I assume you can in a truck but I don't know about a car. A dirt bike would allow some on to move around quickly. Perp could get out of there pronto.

Nope.

A little bitty, kid-sized model, maybe.

Big enough for an adult? Nope.

Now a bicycle, that's a different story & a very quiet story at that....

(4 motorcycles & an ATV out in the Laughing garage.)

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[FromGermany1]

Interesting, at the beginning, when the thread was analysing BGs clothing I looked into BG shoes particularly.
IMO they are modern motorcycle boots, not old style chunky leather boots for riding hogs, but modern boots that resemble tennis or running shoes.
IMO the shoes are black with a possible strap over the laces and white "speed" stripe design element.

bbm
They are looking like they are supple, IMO.

 

[FromGermany1]

February 19, 2017
DELPHI, Ind. (WTHR) - A motorcycle ride through north central Indiana will raise money for the families of two girls found murdered along a trail in Carroll County.

The Office Tavern is hosting the ride this Saturday afternoon. Motorcyclists can join the ride for $20 per bike and $5 per passenger, with proceeds going to help the families of Abby Williams and Libby German, 13-year-old girls who were killed earlier this week as they walked near the Monon High Bridge near Delphi.

I would like to know, if the BG was one of the many motorbike drivers ...... Bold as he seems to be, I think, he was. IMO

 

[they'll get you]

 

[Trocroc9]

The car that was parked that afternoon, didn't LE say they got what they needed from that?

I'm trying to find any reference to that -- my memory is incomplete!

Grateful for anyone who can link that up for me.

JMO

JMO but the whole car thing was strange at the press conference. No make, model or color stated. Seemed like it was a warning to BG that they have info that they know he parked there. I just thought it to be so odd to ask for that information without any details given.

In response to your question I don’t recall them ever stating they have received information. If it was a warning to BG then I’m thinking they already have all the info they need on that.

Side note- they did ask KAK what type of car he drove and it was an old Grand Am.

 

[JnRyan]

JMO but the whole car thing was strange at the press conference. No make, model or color stated. Seemed like it was a warning to BG that they have info that they know he parked there. I just thought it to be so odd to ask for that information without any details given.

In response to your question I don’t recall them ever stating they have received information. If it was a warning to BG then I’m thinking they already have all the info they need on that.

Side note- they did ask KAK what type of car he drove and it was an old Grand Am.

View attachment 338849

Curious. I missed that in the transcript or didn't realize the significance at the time. IF we are to believe that anthony_shots (KAK?) was to meet up with the girls that day and they didn't show, could it be that the question about the car was related to the car at the CPS building? In all this time, though, I've never heard of any witnesses that said they saw KAK at the trail that day. Nor does it appear to be mentioned in the transcript about him being at the trails that day or at least I can't recall it being brought up.

 

[margarita25]

Backtracking a bit to mention/question one point regarding the FBI removing height, specifically, from the FBI poster:

Reference:

Some suspect info removed from FBI poster on Delphi killings | wthr.com

"The Delphi Task Force requested the FBI to remove the physical descriptors listed on the flyer. Investigators do not want to discourage or stop the public from submitting a tip because the person does not specifically meet the height, weight, and age description. Investigators would like the public to focus on the photo of the man on the bridge, the voice recording, and second sketch that was released by law enforcement."

I understand what they’re saying, but I thought the height is a variable that is determined/calculated via a scientific method. I remember from the old Forensic Files, etc. they were able to ascertain a subject’s height, for example someone in Walmart surveillance footage, via a mathematical/calculative approach. Iirc, there’s a specific name for this and I can not remember what it is right now. But my point is, isn’t the height something that is definitive, based on evaluating distance, etc.? So why would they want tips on subjects who may not be this height? Obviously there is more room for variance wrt age and weight, but is there actually room for error with the original height estimate? I’m not quite understanding how the height could vary in this instance and appreciate feedback on this.

—

Eta: A quick google of height determination as related to suspects in video footage reveals many results; this link appears to mention what I’m thinking about:

How Video Forensic Experts Determine Height in Images and Videos | ncavf.com

“Enhanced photo from a crime scene. NCAVF used advanced 3D rendering software to build a model of the crime scene, compare that model to frames from surveillance video, and determine the height of a suspect.

The science of measuring height in photographs (or from video frames) is called photogrammetry. NCAVF is able to utilize these forensic techniques. This process can only be done after some aspect of successful crime scene reconstruction. The four main methods of measuring height are:

1. 3D Modeling of the Perpetrator,
2. 3D Modeling of the Crime Scene,
3. Reverse Projection Photogrammetry, and
4. Single View Metrology (Vanishing Points).”

Eta2: “Photo Gammetry”!! That’s what I was thinking of!!! I thought this was an exact science, maybe it’s not? Furthermore, IF there could be a variance of say a few inches even, wouldn’t they at least be able to provide a range? Now they could get tips of someone who is, say 5’5”. Why would they open themselves up to this if there is no way that could be the man on the bridge?

—-

Eta3: Even before the advancement of “3D” technology, I think the height of a perp is something that could be ascertained pretty easily even without all the fancy technology.

—-

Eta4: More from the above link, there is a lot at that link, worth a read, imo:

“Three challenges are often faced while determining the height of a person in any type of surveillance imagery or videos:

1. Camera and Lens Calibration,
2. Lens Distortion, and
3. Techniques used by criminals to manipulate appearance of height.”

 

[Lavender Moon]

I keep thinking about how it seems like too much of a coincidence that this happened the day before Valentine's day, and that's the day Abby and Libby were found. I've thought about it being a matter of opportunity, as well, but for some reason the timing seems significant to me. It may have been both. I've thought about Valentine's day being a trigger to him, and the girls having the day off from school and being there as the opportunity. Has anyone else thought about this?

From the beginning of this horror story, I have believed Valentine's Day was a trigger as you say.

 

[margarita25]

February 19, 2017
DELPHI, Ind. (WTHR) - A motorcycle ride through north central Indiana will raise money for the families of two girls found murdered along a trail in Carroll County.

The Office Tavern is hosting the ride this Saturday afternoon. Motorcyclists can join the ride for $20 per bike and $5 per passenger, with proceeds going to help the families of Abby Williams and Libby German, 13-year-old girls who were killed earlier this week as they walked near the Monon High Bridge near Delphi.

I also wonder if JBC specifically was there.

 

[calvinshobbes]

Backtracking a bit to mention/question one point regarding the FBI removing height, specifically, from the FBI poster:

Reference:

Some suspect info removed from FBI poster on Delphi killings | wthr.com

"The Delphi Task Force requested the FBI to remove the physical descriptors listed on the flyer. Investigators do not want to discourage or stop the public from submitting a tip because the person does not specifically meet the height, weight, and age description. Investigators would like the public to focus on the photo of the man on the bridge, the voice recording, and second sketch that was released by law enforcement."

I understand what they’re saying, but I thought the height is a variable that is determined/calculated via a scientific method. I remember from the old Forensic Files, etc. they were able to ascertain a subject’s height, for example someone in Walmart surveillance footage, via a mathematical/calculative approach. Iirc, there’s a specific name for this and I can not remember what it is right now. But my point is, isn’t the height something that is definitive, based on evaluating distance, etc.? So why would they want tips on subjects who may not be this height? Obviously there is more room for variance wrt age and weight, but is there actually room for error with the original height estimate? I’m not quite understanding how the height could vary in this instance and appreciate feedback on this.

—

Eta: A quick google of height determination as related to suspects in video footage reveals many results; this link appears to mention what I’m thinking about:

How Video Forensic Experts Determine Height in Images and Videos | ncavf.com

“Enhanced photo from a crime scene. NCAVF used advanced 3D rendering software to build a model of the crime scene, compare that model to frames from surveillance video, and determine the height of a suspect.

The science of measuring height in photographs (or from video frames) is called photogrammetry. NCAVF is able to utilize these forensic techniques. This process can only be done after some aspect of successful crime scene reconstruction. The four main methods of measuring height are:

1. 3D Modeling of the Perpetrator,
2. 3D Modeling of the Crime Scene,
3. Reverse Projection Photogrammetry, and
4. Single View Metrology (Vanishing Points).”

Eta2: “Photo Gammetry”!! That’s what I was thinking of!!! I thought this was an exact science, maybe it’s not? Furthermore, IF there could be a variance of say a few inches even, wouldn’t they at least be able to provide a range? Now they could get tips of someone who is, say 5’5”. Why would they open themselves up to this if there is no way that could be the man on the bridge?

—-

Eta3: Even before the advancement of “3D” technology, I think the height of a perp is something that could be ascertained pretty easily even without all the fancy technology.

since the FBI had always had a height range in the wanted poster, before even taking that away, it is probably safe to say they could not get an exact height from the video. The walmart camera is from a fixed position so they can do the geometry to obtain a height but the video from Libby is probably cropped and shot from an unknown height/position and exact distance. IMO, if it wasn’t for the video, KAK would have already been charged.

 

[margarita25]

Here’s where I’m at: IMO, and others close to the case on the MS podcast also said, that BG’s voice is NOT that of TK’s. TK’s voice is higher. Maybe that is something we can all agree on? If so, it would be a first haha. (“I think BG is older”, “I think BG is younger”, “I think it’s an xxxx accent” the list goes on).

Now here it gets a little trickier, IMO the voice very possibly matches KAK. I definitely can’t rule it out. Jmo. Iirc, two people on the MS podcast said the same thing, iirc the friend and someone else previously said it does sound like KAK, but “Gwen” didn’t think so.

Now, as I’ve mentioned previously over the years, imo the voice on the recording may not be an exact representation due to possible clean up filters and other factors, but I can also take the voice at face value, that it is the voice.

So in summary, with the voice not sounding like TK to me, say he IS the man on the bridge, then deductive reasoning implies two options: There would have to be someone else at the scene who’s voice was captured, or the voice recording accuracy is not there due to filters, etc. WRT the second option, I wouldn’t imagine the variance would be that dramatic with clean up filters, enough to make the voice that much lower than TKs.

—

Eta, which brings to mind IF the above is the case, if it IS TK on the bridge, but that’s not his voice and is instead KAKs, then does that mean KAK was already on the other side of the bridge and in the girls’ presence when the video of BG was taken? Because KAK is not recorded on the bridge.

 

[Prime8]

Here’s where I’m at: IMO, and others close to the case on the MS podcast also said, that BG’s voice is NOT that of TK’s. TK’s voice is higher. Maybe that is something we can all agree on? If so, it would be a first haha. (“I think BG is older”, “I think BG is younger”, “I think it’s an xxxx accent” the list goes on).

Now here it gets a little trickier, IMO the voice very possibly matches KAK. I definitely can’t rule it out. Jmo. Iirc, two people on the MS podcast said the same thing, iirc the friend and someone else previously said it does sound like KAK, but “Gwen” didn’t think so.

Now, as I’ve mentioned previously over the years, imo the voice on the recording may not be an exact representation due to possible clean up filters and other factors, but I can also take the voice at face value, that it is the voice.

So in summary, with the voice not sounding like TK to me, say he IS the man on the bridge, then there are only two options here: There would have to be someone else at the scene who’s voice was captured, or the voice recording accuracy is not there due to filters, etc. WRT the second option, I wouldn’t imagine the variance would be that dramatic with clean up filters, enough to make the voice that much lower than TKs.

This is a nice summary. I do some audio recording and editing at work and have a few points to consider.

We have some basic equipment that does a decent job. Even with a homemade set-up to block out noise, there's always something in the background. We have to edit out ambient noise (street traffic, heat/air, breathing). I can't imagine how much noise would be created by clothing and the outdoors.

My voice and the sound of my co-workers can sound quite different form recording to recording. I always have to record a single piece of audio at once, otherwise I can never get my voice to match. Some of it is "narration voice", some of it is just the time of day or what we ate/drank ahead of time.

 

[margarita25]

Could a dirt bike be put in a car to take to another location? I assume you can in a truck but I don't know about a car. A dirt bike would allow some on to move around quickly. Perp could get out of there pronto.

Toy hauler. Or back of pickup truck.

 

[TL4S]

This is a nice summary. I do some audio recording and editing at work and have a few points to consider.

We have some basic equipment that does a decent job. Even with a homemade set-up to block out noise, there's always something in the background. We have to edit out ambient noise (street traffic, heat/air, breathing). I can't imagine how much noise would be created by clothing and the outdoors.

My voice and the sound of my co-workers can sound quite different form recording to recording. I always have to record a single piece of audio at once, otherwise I can never get my voice to match. Some of it is "narration voice", some of it is just the time of day or what we ate/drank ahead of time.

Would high adrenaline, hiking just prior to, or just the heightened situation change a person's voice?

 

[margarita25]

This is a nice summary. I do some audio recording and editing at work and have a few points to consider.

We have some basic equipment that does a decent job. Even with a homemade set-up to block out noise, there's always something in the background. We have to edit out ambient noise (street traffic, heat/air, breathing). I can't imagine how much noise would be created by clothing and the outdoors.

My voice and the sound of my co-workers can sound quite different form recording to recording. I always have to record a single piece of audio at once, otherwise I can never get my voice to match. Some of it is "narration voice", some of it is just the time of day or what we ate/drank ahead of time.

Hmm.Interesting.

I’ve got an idea to try an experiment. It’s been a while since I’ve seen a real experiment on WS, and there have been some good ones over the years, one person even took some pills iirc lol.

Idea: Record “Guy, Down the hill” on my cell in different controlled environments/distances...phone in pocket, covered by fabric, different days, etc. I wonder how much my voice might vary, but this does not even take into account changes which may occur when technical methods are applied to remove background noise, make clearer, etc.