Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #144

[minazoe]

I always believe Flora is connected.

 

[flashy09]

If this is a catfish case, I am wondering why it ended up in murder. I do not know a lot about catfishing, is this something murderers (serial killers) use as a way to find victims to kill? Or is catfishing more used to SA the victim(s). Why did this end with 2 dead girls and within such a short timeframe? Why would you come prepared with weapons (if in fact BG did that)? To intimidate someone to SA them? Why to you catfish someone to meet you somewhere, what are your intentions? Anyone knows any good research on this topic? What is the criminal/psycological profile of people doing this?

I don't know the answers to your post, but it seems relevant that in the police interview (part 1) KAK had images of child shooting victims.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I hadn’t thought of a signature like this. It’s possible but I imagine law enforcement would want a person of interest to bite into a dental mould and it would be possible forensically to compare the bite mark on victim’s remains with the shape of an individual’s teeth. The Medical Examiner would likely be able to give an estimate of how long a bite mark was present on a victim’s remains.

It would be challenging to protest and convince people of your innocence if your teeth matched the bite mark on a victim’s remains and the Medical Examiner said the bite could possibly have occurred approximately when the murders tragically happened. If they had this kind of very strong evidence which linked the bite mark to a known individual an arrest would likely have been made already. I don’t know how challenging it would be or not legally to obtain a mould of an individual’s teeth who wasn’t under arrest yet in Indiana.

I’m reading about the information that is being revealed from the podcast and the redacted evidence that has been posted and discussed here with interest. It is difficult to try and not get your hopes up that law enforcement is closing in on B.G and anyone else who may be linked to the murders. I really hope and pray for the girls and their loved ones that an arrest(s) will be made in the not too distant future. It will be very interesting to see what happens with the investigation in the upcoming months.

I think that we have to remember - LE can request that TK do a bite mold, they cannot force him to do it without a warrant.
And...another possibility- the incident seems to have been something that occurred several years ago ( the bite on the mother of the child ) .
What if TK has had teeth removed? A partial or even dentures at this point.

Just thinking out loud.

AMOO MOO JMO

 

[Lavender Moon]

I never once thought of that. Pushed off the bridge. OMG. And perhaps the “down the hill” command was directing the one who was not pushed, down to where the other had fallen??? Never occurred to me as a possibility, but is not out of the realm. JMO

I never once thought of that. Pushed off the bridge. OMG. And perhaps the “down the hill” command was directing the one who was not pushed, down to where the other had fallen??? Never occurred to me as a possibility, but is not out of the realm. JMO

I had not thought of that scenario either, mainemom376. The command, however, is directed at more than one person. Otherwise, perhaps we would hear "You! Down the hill."

 

[mom2chloe]

<modsnip>

I always believe Flora is connected.

Flora fires occurred on November 21, 2016 also a Monday interestingly enough.

 

[photographer4]

Bite marks are very rare in murder cases:

“he has only seen half a dozen bite marks in nearly 1,000 homicide investigations”

Forensic Dentists : They Take a Bite Out of Crime

James Chadwell (JC) left bite marks on his victim’s stomach, albeit by a dog but interesting nonetheless:

Does James Brian Chadwell II have connections to the unsolved Delphi murder case?

See and I was also thinking of a possible dog bite when I made that post - not necessarily a human one.

 

[photographer4]

You betcha!

The interrogators brought up girls’ stomachs more than once. There’s a reason for that.

I’m going out on a limb to suggest that this may be one of the signatures that has been alluded to by LE.

And since someone a few posts up mentioned about having a suspects bite mould made for comparison, I wonder whether it was even more odd - maybe it was a dog bite? Maybe... someone drew something on that looked like a bite? We don't know. And it sounds weird sure... but there IS a reason LE mentioned this more than once in the interview.

 

[minazoe]

who ever did this had absolutely no compassion, empathy..nothing..these girls meant nothing to them/him..they were less than human and easy to kill.

He could have said down the hill when he pushed her or tased her off the bridge. I just think it would be hard to carry her even though she was tiny..someone with military experience could carry her easily perhaps as they are trained and she is very small. Perhaps Abby wasn't dead then from the fall but was killed later.

I hate saying this , I hate these people. mOO

 

[photographer4]

Ted Bundy was a biter.

An impression of his teeth was taken by a court order and was one piece of evidence that put Bundy at the scene of the Chi Omega murders.

One would think that if the murderer left bite marks then a decent source of DNA would be present.

From the transcript we know KAK gave a DNA sample. This tells me that LE does have DNA to test against.

I sense that the real target is TK for the murders. I also think that DNA in the familial form has somewhat connected the Kline’s but can’t pinpoint who. I think that’s why the full on press on KAK to crack but he didn’t.

Just some thoughts this morning.

MOO

If they have DNA, and its only showing a familial link, I wonder if they've run it against GedMatch for possible family ties, like they did to grab I think it was the Green River Killer (moo, I don't have a link handy). I am aware that users of GedMatch must opt in to assist police in criminal investigations but ya never know, they could have gotten a bit lucky and just don't have quite enough to firmly nail him (or someone KAK knows) to the scene. Yet.

 

[photographer4]

It may not have started with murder in mind. He had 2 girls to control. One may have gotten away and had to be silenced so the other could not be left as a witness. If one was pushed off the bridge and died as an example.

Is there something about the scene that makes you think that perhaps someone *was* pushed off the bridge? If so, what would that be? I have a hard time imagining this as a possibility because of where the girls were found - on the other side of the creek and several feet up from the edge. If someone were pushed, then how did the killer manage to get them across to their location?

I'm not seeing it really as going down this way, but I'm open to discussion.

 

[photographer4]

Excellent point. They took evidence (hair, dna, etc) from KAK, but he did NOT mention bite molds. Some people have bite marks that would be obvious without taking a mold, IMO. (I'm not allowed to talk about him)

They may not have taken KAK's bite marks for many reasons - to see if he'd roll on someone else, or to reassure him that he isn't being looked at seriously for this (yet). They may have taken impressions from literally anyone else and we simply don't know it yet. Or it could be a dog bite, or any other weird thing, perhaps just signs that someone pinched someone's stomach. Who knows.

 

[photographer4]

This idea is brought up from time to time, but we have L's BG video, LE's comments about a crime about to occur during that time, the family saying the girls were talking about where else they could go, etc. Imo, there is just too much data placing both girls already off the south end of the bridge when BG approached.

There just doesn't seem to be a way to chuck a kid off that bridge and have total control of the other one who'd be freaking out - if that happened, would the falling kid be screaming? If not, why not? Would the witness kid be screaming? If not, why not? What did the girls realize that made one of them look frightened (per an LE statement, though that LE declined to say which girl it was). I don't have the link for the quote, but it has come up often enough that its probably not hard to find. Keep in mind I'm paraphrasing until someone posts the actual quote.

 

[photographer4]

Plus the Carroll County Comet interview where a reader asked if they were moved after death and Leazenby says they were killed where they were found.

Interesting to note though, no one has ever said they were injured or were *not* injured before being killed. EG: that someone may have sprained an ankle, or had a cut, or anything from the route when BG caught up to them, and where they were eventually found. We know LG was found with one shoe missing (we know this because her shoe was found nearer to the bridge on the bridge side per Kelsi's comments about when it was found and where). Why was she down a shoe? Was she missing the other one as well and we just don't know yet?

 

[Schatz]

If this is a catfish case, I am wondering why it ended up in murder. I do not know a lot about catfishing, is this something murderers (serial killers) use as a way to find victims to kill? Or is catfishing more used to SA the victim(s). Why did this end with 2 dead girls and within such a short timeframe? Why would you come prepared with weapons (if in fact BG did that)? To intimidate someone to SA them? Why to you catfish someone to meet you somewhere, what are your intentions? Anyone knows any good research on this topic? What is the criminal/psycological profile of people doing this?

If there was a SK who was an early adopter of tech (like maybe worked in/with computers early on), then … yeah this elaborate catfishing for what ended up in, by my interpretation, a strange murder scene, then yeah - I think it could have happened. I don’t think *usually* catfishing ends up in murder but who knows, I haven’t really researched that.

 

[MistyWaters]

See and I was also thinking of a possible dog bite when I made that post - not necessarily a human one.

In all 196 pages there’s nothing to suggest bite marks were found on the victims and a dog is never once mentioned that I recall, an equal amount of speculation could make it into a snake or cougar bite. I got the impression the girl’s stomach comments put to KAK refereed to erotic stimulation but maybe someone who’s able to search the docs wouldn’t mind posting the exact wording of the questions.

 

[Prime8]

That link about Chadwell (which is only from a podcast, not MSM) states that she had bite marks but not the anatomical location. The affidavit of probable cause lists that victim's injuries and also does not say bite marks specifically on the stomach. Is there a different credible link that says where on her body she was bitten?

Bite mark analysis has been discredited as a forensic science: Bite-mark analysis can lead to false convictions, landmark research shows

There are two problems with it: 1. Human flesh is not like a dental mold, it does not record an exact impression of the dentition that left a bite. But even if if did, 2. Human dentition impressions are not unique enough to identify a person with a level of exact certainty (like a fingerprint does, or DNA).

You might be thinking, well, that's crazy...deceased individuals are identified by their teeth all the time! But those identifications are based on more than just the outer features of the teeth, they take into account inner structures as well features that would not show up in a bite impression.

The utility of bite marks for an investigation would be finding DNA-rich sources within the bite that could be used to create the offender's profile. As a potential signature it would be a useful but not totally conclusive piece of evidence in and of itself, IMO.

Agreed. Bite marks aren't useful to compare to a mold unless there's some glaring obvious abnormality like missing teeth.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

Interesting

Alvinolagnia - Wikipedia

“Alvinolagnia[1] or belly fetish or stomach fetish is a partialism in which an individual is sexually attracted to the stomach”

 

[Prime8]

In all 196 pages there’s nothing to suggest bite marks were found on the victims and a dog is never once mentioned that I recall, an equal amount of speculation could make it into a snake or cougar bite. I got the impression the girl’s stomach comments put to KAK refereed to erotic stimulation but maybe someone who’s able to search the docs wouldn’t mind posting the exact wording of the questions.

There's not mentions of dog bites relating to this investigation. I think people were just noting that there were "bites" involved in the JBC case.

Starting on pg. 111, line 11 -
Q: And what about a 13 year old made it different than a 12 year old for you, sexually?

A: Probably the age. Of just being like a teenager. Probably.

DC: Umm the age specific searches on your phone or from your phone, like the 12 year old girls the 13 year old girl, that was you?


A: I'm guessing, I don't know. I mean I'm sure I looked that stuff up I mean that was-

DC: 12 year old girl stomach -?

A: (inaudible)

DC: Like 12 year old gang bang, stuff like that? Like those searches?

A: I don't ever remember searching that but yeah I mean, probably that was yeah I mean, yeah.

Q: I mean I think you have like a thing for like girl's stomachs is that I mean -

A: (inaudible) -

Q: - we all have-?

A: - Right.

Q: Yeah okay. Umm and then so it was like searches was that like on, just browsing the web or-?

A: I don't know, I don't even remember searching any of that stuff it was probably uh internet explorer something like that.

Starting on pg. 175, line 20 "DC: We had this case a while back and umm this guy had, this fricking little kid was uh in the bathroom and uh overflowed the toilet. So he yells for help and uh the dad gets pissed off, comes at the kid, mom intervenes. The dad punches the mother. You know she runs away, he chases her down, hits her, bites her in the stomach, runs back inside, slams the kids head into the toilet, fractures his orbital socket pus him upside down and starts dunking his head into the toilet that was overflowed.

A: Jesus Christ.

DC: Now what would you think about that guy?

A: He should get hung, right now. He should be killed.

 

[LeBlack]

In all 196 pages there’s nothing to suggest bite marks were found on the victims and a dog is never once mentioned that I recall, an equal amount of speculation could make it into a snake or cougar bite. I got the impression the girl’s stomach comments put to KAK refereed to erotic stimulation but maybe someone who’s able to search the docs wouldn’t mind posting the exact wording of the questions.

Starting at 1:30:11, incident regarding biting is discussed. The Murder Sheet podcast will be airing the interview with the victim Tuesday

 

[LeBlack]

There's not mentions of dog bites relating to this investigation. I think people were just noting that there were "bites" involved in the JBC case.

Starting on pg. 111, line 11 -
Q: And what about a 13 year old made it different than a 12 year old for you, sexually?

A: Probably the age. Of just being like a teenager. Probably.

DC: Umm the age specific searches on your phone or from your phone, like the 12 year old girls the 13 year old girl, that was you?


A: I'm guessing, I don't know. I mean I'm sure I looked that stuff up I mean that was-

DC: 12 year old girl stomach -?

A: (inaudible)

DC: Like 12 year old gang bang, stuff like that? Like those searches?

A: I don't ever remember searching that but yeah I mean, probably that was yeah I mean, yeah.

Q: I mean I think you have like a thing for like girl's stomachs is that I mean -

A: (inaudible) -

Q: - we all have-?

A: - Right.

Q: Yeah okay. Umm and then so it was like searches was that like on, just browsing the web or-?

A: I don't know, I don't even remember searching any of that stuff it was probably uh internet explorer something like that.

Starting on pg. 175, line 20 "DC: We had this case a while back and umm this guy had, this fricking little kid was uh in the bathroom and uh overflowed the toilet. So he yells for help and uh the dad gets pissed off, comes at the kid, mom intervenes. The dad punches the mother. You know she runs away, he chases her down, hits her, bites her in the stomach, runs back inside, slams the kids head into the toilet, fractures his orbital socket pus him upside down and starts dunking his head into the toilet that was overflowed.

A: Jesus Christ.

DC: Now what would you think about that guy?

A: He should get hung, right now. He should be killed.

The podcast adds additional nuance not included in the interview as to WHO the biter is based on research into court documents.