Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

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sandy_80 said:
then why bother and stage a bizarre scene ?
there is a shock factor for those who will find it ? they will never forget it ( thats in some way the words of le )
the small town will never forget this shocking crime
isn't this a shot at infamy ?
WHY THIS LOCATION ? ITS NOT EXACTLY BY THE ROAD AND HIDDEN FROM THE WORLD KIND
he wants some NOTORIETY but without being too explicit as to risk being caught
sure I AM just inserting my own gut feelings and thoughts.. but we don't know much anyway concerning FACTS
I didnt say this was his main motive.. motives can be a number of things
it can be sexual , thrill kill /hate,rage/ and fame seeking all in one
fame might not be the right word tho..leaving a mark is more accurate
Click to expand...
Then first id have to ask if you know what the term "staging" means?, because as far as I'm aware there was absolutely no evidence of staging present at that crime scene at all.

"Staging" is when an offender tries to make a crime look like something else, for ex a burglary gone wrong etc.

These girls bodies from the small amount of info I can gather, were found partially hidden, in an already pretty secluded area near the water.

No communication of ANY kind with the offender, anywhere, victims hidden in a secluded location away from any type of path, this isn't an individual who wants to take credit for anything at all, this is someone who wants to NEVER be linked to that crime, or be found.

Now may he re-live the thrill of it privately? id say probably, but in no way does he want any connection to what he did.

Unlike politically or idealistically motivated, sexual based crimes, aren't committed for ANY type of notoriety, they are committed, because the individual has a psychological need (Power/Anger/Revenge/Lust/Sadism) need that for any variety of reasons, need be filled , sometimes, its situational and temporary, sometimes, its lifelong and enduring.

The notoriety seeking comes secondary, usually once they gain some ground through the media, and is almost certainly tied, directly to their psyche.

But killers communicating with the media , police victim families, are also EXCEEDINGLY rare ...

If we look at sexually motivated killers with multiple victims, only one that I know of (Zodiac) killed a victim simply to gain notoriety for it and that was after the media started to paint him as a coward who had an issue with women, he then killed a cab driver, to prove he was capable, however ...... that was a one off .

There's always a personal motive for sexual based crime , (if this case, was indeed sexually motivated, other possibilities do exist) , but I think were all on the same page saying these were sexually motivated.

And even worse, if not caught has placed himself in criminal realm where he has an extremely high likelihood to re-offend or even become a serial killer .

Never interject, especially if you have no training in criminal behavioral analysis, read what you have, and go from there, otherwise you'll get way off track, and as i'm sure you can tell from a lot of threads on here, once an idea becomes solid in some peoples minds , it gets really difficult (as do they) to change it even with concrete facts .

Stay to the facts
 
The results of a survey administered to 46 trained homicide investigators indicated that while staging may be frequently observed at crime scenes, sexual posing occurs infrequently. Of an estimated 44,541 homicide investigations, respondents indicated that sexual posing was present in less than 1 percent of the cases . Results also indicated that most often sexual posing, in contrast to crime scene staging, was typically not carried out to mislead, but the offenders' motivation was more often based on a psychological need for sexual fantasizing or to satisfy anger at the victim.

Crime Scene Staging: An Exploratory Study of the Frequency and Characteristics of Sexual Posing in Homicides | Office of Justice Programs

also

The act of leaving a victim's body in an unusual position is a conscious criminal action by an offender to thwart an investigation, shock the finder and investigators of the crime scene, or give perverted pleasure to the killer. The unusual position concepts of posing and staging a murder victim have been documented thoroughly and have been accepted by the courts as a definable phenomenon. One staging case and one posing case are outlined and reveal characteristics of those homicides. From the Washington State Attorney General's Homicide Investigation and Tracking System's database on murder covering the years 1981-2000 (a total of 5,224 cases), the relative frequency of unusual body dispositions is revealed as a very rare occurrence. Only 1.3% of victims are left in an unusual position, with 0.3% being posed and 0.1% being staged. The characteristics of these types of murders also set them apart: compared to all other murders, in staged murders the victims and killers are, on average, older. All victims and offenders in the staged murders are white, with victims being disproportionately white in murders with any kind of unusual body disposition. Likewise, females stand out as victims when the body is posed, staged, or left in other unusual positions. Whereas posed bodies are more likely to include sexual assault, often in serial murders, there is no evidence of either in the staged cases. Lastly, when a body is left in an unusual position, binding is more likely, as well as the use of more "hands on" means of killing the victim, such as stabbing or cutting weapons, bludgeons, ligatures, or hands and feet.

The rarity of "unusual" [corrected] dispositions of victim bodies: staging and posing - PubMed

we conclude ..its a rare occurrence that signifies an unusual offender/murder like I always theorised
 
Kell1 said:
Then first id have to ask if you know what the term "staging" means?, because as far as I'm aware there was absolutely no evidence of staging present at that crime scene at all.

"Staging" is when an offender tries to make a crime look like something else, for ex a burglary gone wrong etc.

These girls bodies from the small amount of info I can gather, were found partially hidden, in an already pretty secluded area near the water.

No communication of ANY kind with the offender, anywhere, victims hidden in a secluded location away from any type of path, this isn't an individual who wants to take credit for anything at all, this is someone who wants to NEVER be linked to that crime, or be found.

Now may he re-live the thrill of it privately? id say probably, but in no way does he want any connection to what he did.

Unlike politically or idealistically motivated, sexual based crimes, aren't committed for ANY type of notoriety, they are committed, because the individual has a psychological need (Power/Anger/Revenge/Lust/Sadism) need that for any variety of reasons, need be filled , sometimes, its situational and temporary, sometimes, its lifelong and enduring.

The notoriety seeking comes secondary, usually once they gain some ground through the media, and is almost certainly tied, directly to their psyche.

But killers communicating with the media , police victim families, are also EXCEEDINGLY rare ...

If we look at sexually motivated killers with multiple victims, only one that I know of (Zodiac) killed a victim simply to gain notoriety for it and that was after the media started to paint him as a coward who had an issue with women, he then killed a cab driver, to prove he was capable, however ...... that was a one off .

There's always a personal motive for sexual based crime , (if this case, was indeed sexually motivated, other possibilities do exist) , but I think were all on the same page saying these were sexually motivated.

And even worse, if not caught has placed himself in criminal realm where he has an extremely high likelihood to re-offend or even become a serial killer .

Never interject, especially if you have no training in criminal behavioral analysis, read what you have, and go from there, otherwise you'll get way off track, and as i'm sure you can tell from a lot of threads on here, once an idea becomes solid in some peoples minds , it gets really difficult (as do they) to change it even with concrete facts .

Stay to the facts
Click to expand...
Staging was mentioned in the RL warrant so however the crime scene was left by the kilker(s), LE early on felt aspects of the scene were staged.

We don't know how or what was processed by LE for that term to be used, just that it was. That is a fact we can now theorize about.

I also believe a sexually motivated murder can also have more than one motivation that's personal, being recognized as infamous being one. Just a small example: a man who hates women because of sexually mistreatment by his mother. That man can want to want to abuse and kill a woman but by staging a kill scene may be seeking to leave behind a misogynistic statement also.

Some murderers can't perform to rape but "get off" by greatly dehumanize the victims by staging.

AJMO
 
sunshineray said:
Staging was mentioned in the RL warrant so however the crime scene was left by the kilker(s), LE early on felt aspects of the scene were staged.

We don't know how or what was processed by LE for that term to be used, just that it was. That is a fact we can now theorize about.

I also believe a sexually motivated murder can also have more than one motivation that's personal, being recognized as infamous being one. Just a small example: a man who hates women because of sexually mistreatment by his mother. That man can want to want to abuse and kill a woman but by staging a kill scene may be seeking to leave behind a misogynistic statement also.

Some murderers can't perform to rape but "get off" by greatly dehumanize the victims by staging.

AJMO
Click to expand...

Staging a crimes scene and gruesomely posing the victim’s bodies are about at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Staging does NOT refer to displayed and has no connection to the theatre version of the word, as if to wrongly suggest they were somehow weirdly displayed for the satisfaction of the killer or he was making some kind of statement. I think you have the words “staged” and “posed” as being synonymous and that’s not correct in the world of crime scene forensics.

Definition of staging -
“Any deliberate effort made by an offender before police arrive to alter the pristine condition of a crime scene to purposely thwart the investigation and frustrate the overall criminal justice process is the essence of crime scene staging.”

Staged Crime Scene Investigations - Forensic Pieces

www.forensicpieces.com www.forensicpieces.com

“Sometimes a perpetrator will attempt to confuse the forensic investigators by staging a crime scene. This involves altering the scene to try to disguise what really happened. When reconstructing the crime scene, the investigating team must always be on the lookout for staging. Typically, evidence or bodies will be moved……”

Crime Scene Staging | Encyclopedia.com

Crime Scene Staging Sometimes a perpetrator will attempt to confuse the forensic investigators by staging a crime scene. This involves altering the scene to try to disguise what really happened. When reconstructing the crime scene, the investigating team must always be on the lookout for...
www.encyclopedia.com www.encyclopedia.com
 
Last edited:
MistyWaters said:
Staging a crimes scene and gruesomely posing the victim’s bodies are about at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Staging does NOT refer to displayed and has no connection to the theatre version of the word, as if to wrongly suggest they were somehow weirdly displayed for the satisfaction of the killer or he was making some kind of statement. I think you have the words “staged” and “posed” as being synonymous and that’s not correct in the world of crime scene forensics.

Definition of staging -
“Any deliberate effort made by an offender before police arrive to alter the pristine condition of a crime scene to purposely thwart the investigation and frustrate the overall criminal justice process is the essence of crime scene staging.”

Staged Crime Scene Investigations - Forensic Pieces

www.forensicpieces.com www.forensicpieces.com

“Sometimes a perpetrator will attempt to confuse the forensic investigators by staging a crime scene. This involves altering the scene to try to disguise what really happened. When reconstructing the crime scene, the investigating team must always be on the lookout for staging. Typically, evidence or bodies will be moved……”

Crime Scene Staging | Encyclopedia.com

Crime Scene Staging Sometimes a perpetrator will attempt to confuse the forensic investigators by staging a crime scene. This involves altering the scene to try to disguise what really happened. When reconstructing the crime scene, the investigating team must always be on the lookout for...
www.encyclopedia.com www.encyclopedia.com
Click to expand...
Maybe the killer(s) staging was done to shock the discoverers and investigators into believing the killings were staged to look like someone crazed did them when in fact calculated killer(s) are responsible (ie maybe making s video to then distribute for money)? It's possible cold hard cash was behind the catfishing and execution. Just an example.

And who's to say if the killer(s) got a thrill or enjoyment from that in itself. I've always wondered, because of the implied lack of DNA that leads to identitying, if bleach wasn't used by the killer(s). If that was the case though wouldn't thinking staging was done would go out the window?

What do you think was meant by "staging" in this case? There's just so much we don't know about the scene.
 
sunshineray said:
Maybe the killer(s) staging was done to shock the discoverers and investigators into believing the killings were staged to look like someone crazed did them when in fact calculated killer(s) are responsible (ie maybe making s video to then distribute for money)? It's possible cold hard cash was behind the catfishing and execution. Just an example.

And who's to say if the killer(s) got a thrill or enjoyment from that in itself. I've always wondered, because of the implied lack of DNA that leads to identitying, if bleach wasn't used by the killer(s). If that was the case though wouldn't thinking staging was done would go out the window?

What do you think was meant by "staging" in this case? There's just so much we don't know about the scene.
Click to expand...

As the SW says it appears the girks’s bodies had been moved and staged that could mean something as simple as appearances were wrong or that the bodies were moved from a level area to the bottom of a ravine or gully to make it seem as if they accidentally fell. Disguising a murder scene to appear as if suicide occurred in another type of staging. The discovery needn’t have been ultimately gruesome, not to forget the unexpected finding of the two girl’s dead bodies had to have been absolutely horrifying for everyone involved.

We know little about the crime scene and meanwhile LE has chosen not to expand on it. Sometimes it seems every additional detail we learn invites even more speculation and while this may satisfy our imagination, it’s not going to solve the crime, unfortunately it verges toward a real life tragedy becoming closer to entertainment. JMO
 
Indiana has a problem. Sex offender registers are packed

And just this week a pastor, ( in Warsaw not far from.Kokomo,) was getting a standing ovation from hia flock as he resigns for "adultery" which turns out to be forcing himself on a 16 year old girl.
Libby was enamored of the "Hot Jesus" pastor coming to preach at her church not long before she was murdered, she had his publicity banner on her IG.
The culture there is not safe.
 
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sunshineray said:
Staging was mentioned in the RL warrant so however the crime scene was left by the kilker(s), LE early on felt aspects of the scene were staged.

We don't know how or what was processed by LE for that term to be used, just that it was. That is a fact we can now theorize about.

I also believe a sexually motivated murder can also have more than one motivation that's personal, being recognized as infamous being one. Just a small example: a man who hates women because of sexually mistreatment by his mother. That man can want to want to abuse and kill a woman but by staging a kill scene may be seeking to leave behind a misogynistic statement also.

Some murderers can't perform to rape but "get off" by greatly dehumanize the victims by staging.

AJMO
Click to expand...
THIS!!!!!!!
 
Boxer said:
Indiana has a problem. Sex offender registers are packed

And just this week a pastor, ( in Warsaw not far from.Kokomo,) was getting a standing ovation from hia flock as he resigns for "adultery" which turns out to be forcing himself on a 16 year old girl.
Libby was enamored of the "Hot Jesus" pastor coming to preach at her church not long before she was murdered, she had his publicity banner on her IG.
The culture there is not safe.
Click to expand...
Look at his pictures. Could he be BG?
 
There has been significant discussion about possible reasons why the searchers wouldn’t have immediately recognized a murder scene when the bodies were discovered. Perhaps that was due to staging?

BBM
www.carrollcountycomet.com

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

It was announced there would be no press conference on the fourth anniversary of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail William, the two middle school students who went for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail in 2017 and did not return alive. Questions about the case from both the local...
www.carrollcountycomet.com www.carrollcountycomet.com
Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.
 
Boxer said:
Indiana has a problem. Sex offender registers are packed

And just this week a pastor, ( in Warsaw not far from.Kokomo,) was getting a standing ovation from hia flock as he resigns for "adultery" which turns out to be forcing himself on a 16 year old girl.
Libby was enamored of the "Hot Jesus" pastor coming to preach at her church not long before she was murdered, she had his publicity banner on her IG.
The culture there is not safe.
Click to expand...
BOXER....you should be ashamed of yourself.... you sleuthing genius/savant!! (I mean that as a compliment.) Whoodathunkit? You know I will be up half the night going down rabbit holes so deep I'll need back up batteries for my flashlight.
 
sunshineray said:
Staging was mentioned in the RL warrant so however the crime scene was left by the kilker(s), LE early on felt aspects of the scene were staged.

We don't know how or what was processed by LE for that term to be used, just that it was. That is a fact we can now theorize about.

I also believe a sexually motivated murder can also have more than one motivation that's personal, being recognized as infamous being one. Just a small example: a man who hates women because of sexually mistreatment by his mother. That man can want to want to abuse and kill a woman but by staging a kill scene may be seeking to leave behind a misogynistic statement also.

Some murderers can't perform to rape but "get off" by greatly dehumanize the victims by staging.

AJMO
Click to expand...

All of these things are so interesting and unbelievably sad.



We know that posing murder victims is actually extremely rare. The intentions fall under:
*Throwing off the investigation: making the scene appear to be something it is not. *
*To shock people who find the crime scene.*
* To satisfy a deviancy within the killer. To offer the killer pleasure.*

Which of these is the Delphi killer trying to convey?
Was he trying to through the investigation off? If so, how? (This to me, is least likely but not totally off the table)
Was it meant to shock those who would find the bodies? If this is the reason, it feels more personal. Either that or this guy is a sadist in the truest sense of the word.
The last possibility could easily be linked with the previous one and could also bring videos and/ or photographs into the equation.

The other thing that bothers me A LOT is the mention of severe blood loss from the victims. If, in fact this crime was carried out with a sharp weapon instead of a gun ( I am sorry to be so specific) isn't that usually personal? Isn't that linked to rage that is toward the victim/s ? If that is the case, obviously the killer would have been associated with the victims or members of their family. Or is that incorrect? Doesn't this show a person with rage and hatred? Is it most often used in murders that are sexually motivated?

I have so many questions. I hope with all of my heart that the killer of these kids is put away soon or that he is already sitting in jail. All of this reading of documents leads me to believe more than ever that there is a serial killer lying in wait for his next opportunity.

AMOO
 
sandy_80 said:
The results of a survey administered to 46 trained homicide investigators indicated that while staging may be frequently observed at crime scenes, sexual posing occurs infrequently. Of an estimated 44,541 homicide investigations, respondents indicated that sexual posing was present in less than 1 percent of the cases . Results also indicated that most often sexual posing, in contrast to crime scene staging, was typically not carried out to mislead, but the offenders' motivation was more often based on a psychological need for sexual fantasizing or to satisfy anger at the victim.

Crime Scene Staging: An Exploratory Study of the Frequency and Characteristics of Sexual Posing in Homicides | Office of Justice Programs

also

The act of leaving a victim's body in an unusual position is a conscious criminal action by an offender to thwart an investigation, shock the finder and investigators of the crime scene, or give perverted pleasure to the killer. The unusual position concepts of posing and staging a murder victim have been documented thoroughly and have been accepted by the courts as a definable phenomenon. One staging case and one posing case are outlined and reveal characteristics of those homicides. From the Washington State Attorney General's Homicide Investigation and Tracking System's database on murder covering the years 1981-2000 (a total of 5,224 cases), the relative frequency of unusual body dispositions is revealed as a very rare occurrence. Only 1.3% of victims are left in an unusual position, with 0.3% being posed and 0.1% being staged. The characteristics of these types of murders also set them apart: compared to all other murders, in staged murders the victims and killers are, on average, older. All victims and offenders in the staged murders are white, with victims being disproportionately white in murders with any kind of unusual body disposition. Likewise, females stand out as victims when the body is posed, staged, or left in other unusual positions. Whereas posed bodies are more likely to include sexual assault, often in serial murders, there is no evidence of either in the staged cases. Lastly, when a body is left in an unusual position, binding is more likely, as well as the use of more "hands on" means of killing the victim, such as stabbing or cutting weapons, bludgeons, ligatures, or hands and feet.

The rarity of "unusual" [corrected] dispositions of victim bodies: staging and posing - PubMed

we conclude ..its a rare occurrence that signifies an unusual offender/murder like I always theorised
Click to expand...
Really interesting stuff, thanks for posting it.
 
staging a scene to throw le off, usually involve a personal killer wanting to reverse the investigation into other direction...disguising it as a sexual assault
like in a case where a female killer posed the female victim in a sexual pose ..
or a theft
I don't see this as probable in this case.. unless the staging included bizarre elements
that might lead into the suggestion of a ritual/cultish murder..but this would require a highly intelligent killer who would have planned all of this in advance ..and did he have time in this limited time frame ..
also if even if this was true.. how to decide the staging was not for his pleasure and purposes ..this is one factor that even le can only guess at
 
Regarding "staging" - Criminologists define three types of staging, IMO:

Primary staging - the overwhelming majority of "staged" cases, this is when the offender alters the scene or evidence for the purpose of misdirecting or thwarting the investigation. When criminologists talk about staging, this is primarily what they are referring to. LE might be using this term interchangeably with....

Secondary staging - When there is an intentional alteration or manipulation of the scene for the offender's pleasure or fulfilment. This is related to the psychological signature aspect. Some criminologists do not consider this a type of staging and refer to "posing" or "signatures" or "personation" instead. These intentional alterations of the scene include a wide range of behaviors, pre- and post-mortem, and all are done strictly for the fulfillment (typically sexual) of the offender. There are additional three subsets of behavior here -
1. depersonalization - when the offender attempts to obscure the victim's identity or engages in mutilation designed to divest the victim of sexual characteristics
2. Body posing - the victim is placed in particular positions, usually to shock/offend society or to humiliate and degrade the victim
3. Symbolic/ritualistic - these are the "odd" behaviors where investigators can attach no specific meaning but they clearly had a meaning to the offender. They may have to do with paraphilias or other individualized fantasies or symbols. They have a tendency to repeat if other crimes occur in series BUT they can evolve or be adapted to individual crime circumstances and do not necessarily stay exactly the same over time.

Tertiary staging - Occurs when someone, not out of criminal intent, intentionally alters the crime scene because they are seeking to spare the family or victim embarrassment. An example would be, coming upon a victim who died by autoerotic asphyxiation and re-dressing them or taking away elements at the scene to avoid bringing shame on the family or victim.

A 2012 study by the FBI Behavioral Science Unit reviewed 946 homicides for evidence of staging. They found evidence of primary staging (intent to mislead police either physically - by altering the scene - or verbally - such as filing a false missing person report) in 79 cases, or a little over 8% of cases. The primary methods used to stage the scene were, from most used to least used by offenders: 1. arson, 2. filing a false missing persons report, 3. faking a burglary/robbery, 4. accident, 5. suicide, and finally, 6. faking a sexual homicide, usually by undressing or by exposing the victim's genitals (staging a sexual homicide happened in exactly 1 case out of 946). Staging in order to pretend something was a sexually motivated homicide when it really wasn't, is the rarest of the rare. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257763656_Crime_Scene_Staging_in_Homicide
 
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