Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

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Did anyone happed to note where, in that 190+ page interrogation, he stated he was supposed to meet her on the bridge, or in the park, or even in Delphi?
Someone remind me what the interviewer said was “probably the one true thing” Kegan had said in the interview. That LE *did* believe he was being truthful about that thing.
 
Someone remind me what the interviewer said was “probably the one true thing” Kegan had said in the interview. That LE *did* believe he was being truthful about that thing.
His phone being on the microwave when he got back from his polygraph on 2/25/17. The phone that ended up being wiped before getting turned over to LE a couple days later.
 
I want to get a feel from others on the topic of circumstantial evidence.
AFAIK this type of evidence is still used in a court of law.
If we looked at the connections between KAK and his relative, for me at least, it is undeniable.
He was in touch with the murder victim up until the day that she died.
He seemed to "like" girls her age.
He lied about his whereabouts the day of the murder.
He deleted items from his phone that connected him to the murder victim, yet easily gave over incriminating photos that would certainly give him serious jail time.
He responded to a text from the murder victims friend that asks him, Did you hear about Liberty? By saying OMG no, what happened? I was supposed to meet her, she never showed up.
Who responds that way???
Most people would likely respond with: No, why?
He is currently also " in negotiations ".
These are about 20 percent of the things I can lay out about the connections.
Circumstantial evidence CAN BE used and is reliable.
These things, IMO are much more than trivial coincidences.

EBM Spelling.
Probably still wrong.

MOO
Just to clarify, circumstantial evidence is pretty much everything but eyewitness testimony. DNA, fingerprints, gun shot residue, incriminating statements, etc., are all circumstantial evidence, which just means evidence that needs some form of interpretation. For example, finding the DNA of a person inside the orifice of a deceased person doesn’t prove that the owner of that DNA killed the deceased person. But the circumstances - unrelated male, dead body found after having been disposed of, etc. - point indirectly to that unrelated male’s guilt. Most guilty verdicts, in absence of a confession, or witness who saw the killing, are rendered due to circumstantial evidence.

In any event, I think when people use the term “circumstantial evidence”, they tend to mean not physical evidence. Such evidence is not just used, it carries no different weight than direct evidence.
 
Good point. This is an extreme example, but look at Samuel Little. He committed rapes and murders - PROBABLY 93 - over three decades and no one was making the connection.


One of Little's favorite reading materials was true crime magazines. Nowadays criminals have a better source, the internet.

Just because this killer hasn't been connected to other crimes doesn't mean there aren't others. He could have had something else in mind here, it went sideways on him and doesn't resemble previous crimes. He could have sat back afterwards and looked at his mistakes and future murders don't look like this one. If LE even hasn't made a connection doesn't mean there isn't any. To add to that if LE is using ViCAP (Violent Criminal Aprehension Program) to look for other crimes that is a problem. The last I looked about 10 years ago out of 18000 city, county and state LE agencies only about 1400 entered violent crimes into ViCAP. If this killer is not currently local and is committing crimes in places like Backwoods Arkansas or Podunk Nebraska chances are high ViCAP has no visibility on it.

I believe the chances are high this killer is somewhere with 1-2 hours of Delphi and has some past connection to the area. But there is also the possibility this guy could be in Kansas City scoping out Swope Park or in Columbus OH stalking Alum Creek Trail.

That and often times they read up on and study what other killers have done.

It's been 5.5+ years, my guess would be BG did some homework before he put the wheels in motion that day.

JMO
 
Since no-one ever seems to want to actually provide details of their claims wrt to the transcipt:

The KAK transcript, page 181 lines 19-22.

So the source is LE saying a female witness told them anthony_shots said the "oh my god ...."

So no evidence that KAK said it.
[edit to add missed no!]

A witness stating he said that, is evidence.
 
I listened to that episode. I didn’t get much from it except they felt KAK was a dime a dozen CSAM perpetrator, nothing special, as opposed to the kingpin of the largest CSAM investigation in Indiana history.
My investigative excitement in hearing, from seasoned prosecutors, they don't go out of their way to broker deals from informants got my Geiger Counter clicking loudly. IIRC The male commentor specifically said he didn't have time for any wild goose chases and needed something credible/concrete before moving on information from an incarcerated person and usually with the assistance of the defense attorney, Now I really, really, really want to know more about the divers & their search. It doesn't appear the transfer of custody was for a dental appointment....just sayin.
Someone remind me what the interviewer said was “probably the one true thing” Kegan had said in the interview. That LE *did* believe he was being truthful about that thing.
He found the phone in the kitchen after the first polygraph?
 
A witness stating he said that, is evidence.
In the judicial system I can imagine it is a matter of degrees. For example, if the witness says look at this - email, FB messenger, Instagram, etc. - that can be solid. But if the witness says that KAK said it but can't produce the communication, for whatever reason after 5 years, it would be less credible.

Realize, of course, that my experience is not from LE, but as an auditor and CPA and the GAO Yellowbook considers testimonial evidence to be the weakest form of evidence. So much so that it is not permitted as evidence in an audit report unless corroborated by one of the stronger forms of evidence.
 
In the judicial system I can imagine it is a matter of degrees. For example, if the witness says look at this - email, FB messenger, Instagram, etc. - that can be solid. But if the witness says that KAK said it but can't produce the communication, for whatever reason after 5 years, it would be less credible.

Realize, of course, that my experience is not from LE, but as an auditor and CPA and the GAO Yellowbook considers testimonial evidence to be the weakest form of evidence. So much so that it is not permitted as evidence in an audit report unless corroborated by one of the stronger forms of evidence.
What someone says to another is credible, unless there is a reason to doubt the other’s credibility. In law, testimonial evidence is not the weakest evidence.

Not everything is written and it doesn’t have to be.
 
Just to clarify, circumstantial evidence is pretty much everything but eyewitness testimony. DNA, fingerprints, gun shot residue, incriminating statements, etc., are all circumstantial evidence, which just means evidence that needs some form of interpretation. For example, finding the DNA of a person inside the orifice of a deceased person doesn’t prove that the owner of that DNA killed the deceased person. But the circumstances - unrelated male, dead body found after having been disposed of, etc. - point indirectly to that unrelated male’s guilt. Most guilty verdicts, in absence of a confession, or witness who saw the killing, are rendered due to circumstantial evidence.

In any event, I think when people use the term “circumstantial evidence”, they tend to mean not physical evidence. Such evidence is not just used, it carries no different weight than direct evidence.
Gitana1, thank you for taking the time to give some clear definitions to terms and concepts that people use and misuse on the website. Your training and experience are valuable and instructive, and I (among many to be sure) am very grateful for your careful mentoring.
 
Gitana1, thank you for taking the time to give some clear definitions to terms and concepts that people use and misuse on the website. Your training and experience are valuable and instructive, and I (among many to be sure) am very grateful for your careful mentoring.
Seconded. I really appreciate authoritative voices adding perspective in areas with which I’m not terribly familiar.
 
What someone says to another is credible, unless there is a reason to doubt the other’s credibility. In law, testimonial evidence is not the weakest evidence.

Not everything is written and it doesn’t have to be.
I hear about this and then I go back to the murder of Angela Michelle Lawless in MO and the wrongful conviction of Joshua Kezar. Witness testimony from a 'credible' witness placed Kezar in the area at the time. The fact that several persons KNEW Kezar was in IL and not MO at the night in question. The witness was deemed credible. The witnesses who placed him in IL were considered inebriated. He has since been exonerated. In spite of a sober and credible witness.

At the other end of the spectrum I was directly involved in a multi-million dollar embezzlement investigation where we had MULTIPLE credible and experienced financial professionals ready to testify about it. I, as one of the auditors, showed federal LE EXACTLY how it was being done. While we could ID the money flow going out we did not have investigator subpoena powers to access bank accounts. After our 100+ page report and another 20 page report to the FBI we were told they weren't relying on the 'credible' witness accounts. Five years after the audit, shock upon shock, it comes out that it was somewhere between 10 and 20 MILLION dollars stolen. Exactly how we and the ''credible' witnesses stated that it was done.

My point is that it is a matter of degrees. Is the testimony credible? 'Depends' is the key word. A matter of degrees. And credibility is strictly in the eye of the beholder. Or investigator. Or juror.
 
Yes, in part. I believe he made it for that use but I'm keeping an open mind that it was for someone else.

For anyone:
Who is "Adam" on pg 68, line 10 of the interrogation?
Wow, looks like they failed to redact the name Adam in that one instance. Great catch!! If you keep reading (if you can stomach it), it seems like that person continues to be referenced but redacted (the redacted name appears to be 4 spaces). The transcript says that the redacted person was a friend of KK’s who had access to KK’s phone.
 
Wow, looks like they failed to redact the name Adam in that one instance. Great catch!! If you keep reading (if you can stomach it), it seems like that person continues to be referenced but redacted (the redacted name appears to be 4 spaces). The transcript says that the redacted person was a friend of KK’s who had access to KK’s phone.
Yes, well if that is true that is what happens when a podcaster is entrusted with doing 'responsible' redacting from a document that was obtained by 'accident'.
 
Yes, well if that is true that is what happens when a podcaster is entrusted with doing 'responsible' redacting from a document that was obtained by 'accident'.
Respectfully, that is what happens when a human is entrusted with doing responsible redacting. I once laid eyes on a sensitive document redacted by a government employee who failed to redact a single nickname in one spot, and that, along with other clues, made the rest of the redactions meaningless because the person’s name was able to be figured out. Moo from a fellow bean counter.
 
What someone says to another is credible, unless there is a reason to doubt the other’s credibility. In law, testimonial evidence is not the weakest evidence.
Not everything is written and it doesn’t have to be.
how is kak disguised as a persona making a claim on SM is evidence in the first place ?
anyone can claim anything on sm ...
where is the actual proving of the supposed claim happening..
q: have you made a claim on sm that you were supposed to meet libby that day ?
a: i lied like i did about everything

...
this is where it ends
 
we don’t know if KAK or any other user on the account set up and followed through on meetings with other girls. I really want to know what information LE received when they requested people to come forward with information about the account. If other meetings were planned, did KAK or someone else actually show up… I could really see girls showing up to a planned meeting only to find nobody there… not knowing that KAK or another user was observing them from a distance.

I desperately want to know - did this account set up meetings at places like a park or hiking trail where someone could observe the girls and never be noticed. There was an interesting anecdote in ‘I’ll be gone in the dark’ where someone plotted out the locations of crimes associated with GSK and I believe when they drew a triangle or circle around the points, GSK lived inside the area. If meetings were set up and LE plotted these points out, is KAK’s house inside that area…
 
At the other end of the spectrum I was directly involved in a multi-million dollar embezzlement investigation where we had MULTIPLE credible and experienced financial professionals ready to testify about it.
not you living my dream career lol. I’m trying to work with my supervisor to make me competitive for a rotation in fraud investigation at my agency. DOJ told me to get experience and apply again in a few years.
 
not you living my dream career lol. I’m trying to work with my supervisor to make me competitive for a rotation in fraud investigation at my agency. DOJ told me to get experience and apply again in a few years.
If you have bachelor's degree and some fraud examination experience you can apply for and take the CFE (Certified Fraud Examiner) exam. Not cheap and it takes time.
 
I hear about this and then I go back to the murder of Angela Michelle Lawless in MO and the wrongful conviction of Joshua Kezar. Witness testimony from a 'credible' witness placed Kezar in the area at the time. The fact that several persons KNEW Kezar was in IL and not MO at the night in question. The witness was deemed credible. The witnesses who placed him in IL were considered inebriated. He has since been exonerated. In spite of a sober and credible witness.

At the other end of the spectrum I was directly involved in a multi-million dollar embezzlement investigation where we had MULTIPLE credible and experienced financial professionals ready to testify about it. I, as one of the auditors, showed federal LE EXACTLY how it was being done. While we could ID the money flow going out we did not have investigator subpoena powers to access bank accounts. After our 100+ page report and another 20 page report to the FBI we were told they weren't relying on the 'credible' witness accounts. Five years after the audit, shock upon shock, it comes out that it was somewhere between 10 and 20 MILLION dollars stolen. Exactly how we and the ''credible' witnesses stated that it was done.

My point is that it is a matter of degrees. Is the testimony credible? 'Depends' is the key word. A matter of degrees. And credibility is strictly in the eye of the beholder. Or investigator. Or juror.

I’m just citing how the law approaches it. You may feel that there has to be written evidence to prove that someone said something. But eye witness evidence is treated the same as any other evidence unless there is something to suggest the witness is not credible.
 
(snipped a bit)more!
What was that "girl talk" from L&A, was any of it about BG? Or other people on the trails that day? Why was Libby recording the "girl talk" in the first place? ...
The only 'talk about BG' that was described--- by Abby's mother, after hearing Libby's recording,--- "is that creepy guy still behind us". My verbatim from about five years ago when Anna's video was first available on internet. I, too, question why Libby was recording their own talk as they walked? It does appear to indicate that if that guy was BG, they did not recognize him as an individual, nor expect to meet up with any older stranger.
Your many questions could be asked by old-timers and newcomers to case, yet not many can be answered. Your closing below wishes well for all of us:
...lAnd LE certainly knows the answers to at least some of those, maybe most, maybe almost all. I just have to assume that, behind the scenes, they're making progress. Good luck to them!
 
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