Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #94

[Deleted member 158085]

<modsnipped quoted post>
We were just reminded by a mod that incel discussion is off limits.

 

[taylorss]

In my personal opinion, the short answer is no. Moving the bodies would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible. Plus, several posters have mentioned there was no crime scene tape where it would be expected if that had happened.

moo

My thinking was that the bodies would’ve been carried by the water, or maybe he entered the water & moved them after the fact ...... it’s the movement of girls, both/either before & after COD, that raises the most questions in this matter

 

[Jax49]

My thinking was that the bodies would’ve been carried by the water, or maybe he entered the water & moved them after the fact ...... it’s the movement of girls, both/either before & after COD, that raises the most questions in this matter

But, the bodies were located UP stream and 60 feet (or so) from the water's edge. Plus, I don't want to offend anyone, but that would be a lot of weight to move. moo

 

[moonlessnight]

totally agree. I think Carter is so upset bc this killer is such a hypocrite and is one in such a public way - and may even use a public arena to gain sympathy, attention, and even justification. I also understand his plea for the killer to draw on his conscience but I think none of them understand that this killer has no conscience. This killer is extremely narcissistic - it's all about him. what happened to the girls is all about him. he has no concept of others as individuals. The family does not understand what they are dealing with - what psychopathy is. they are using compassion with a viper. they may be falling on mental illness or developmental disability as a denial tool, but they are missing the mark. the family are probably all under the spell his manipulations and do not have their own locus of control remaining to make choices about him. They may think, as is a common myth in domestic violence situations, that it is a family issue they can solve themselves and that should stay within the family. Once someone takes away someone else's children, it is no longer within the family. Justice must be had. This killer (and possibly his family) has a god complex - they think they are higher than the law.

Carter was so emotional because he knows who it is and he want to grab him, look in his eyes and tell him what a horrible monster he is. He was to much of a coward to come out and admit what he did yet he hid behind perhaps religion and knows he is doomed to he.. not heaven if you don't come to the light. It is like the BG is making a mockery of religion.

 

[wary]

Admin note:

Take the "incel" and "white supremacist" discussion to the private conversation area. Theories have to be based on known facts and law enforcement has not announced any connection to those topics.

Probably a good idea to skim, rather than skipping every other page. That way, we don’t miss posts like this.

 

[Boxer]

Agree it seems daunting, but I think LE would gladly wade through hundreds of new tips to get to what they need in order to solve this case. And fits in to Carter asking the public to please be patient. JMO.

MOO this explains why all detectives seem to say the same thing, that this case is solvable, but very tough.

 

[taylorss]

But, the bodies were located UP stream and 60 feet (or so) from the water's edge. Plus, I don't want to offend anyone, but that would be a lot of weight to move. moo

Thank you! ‘Upstream’ is very useful info! Def undermines my speculation

 

[teeandcee]

Just bumping this post.

Oops! And I saw that when it was posted.

 

[Charlot123]

You make an interesting point. In my own experience I have been targeted for not being the majority religion in my school, and teens/young adults who are a part of the majority can be very cruel. If BG had severe mental illness coupled with self esteem issues + religious doctrine, it could very well lead to an unspeakable act. Seeing others happy would make him angry (i.e. incels) and especially so if he assumed that they were gay. JMO.

I am sorry that you had to go through it @kiaatcher. I read one of the books about the Columbine, describing the moral climate of the school (bad!), and they specifically mentioned how the kids who were not the members of mainstream “prayer groups” could be targeted. So yes, kids might be very cruel to any minority.

I think BG was somewhat messed up and possibly, confused, for a long time, in many ways. I think he was coached on how to behave and present, but by himself, he was probably in a very dark spot, many times. I can’t quite blame the parents who place too much emphasis on “how to present” because they were probably raised this way, but oftentimes, they miss a lot because kids are scared to open up to them.

But if you add some illness to it and, as some posters seem to think, possible mood-destabilizing treatment, it totally tips the scales.

Girls in general are more touchy-feely, more demonstrative about friendship. At school, in my time, we were often walking holding each other’s waists, and hugging, and it was OK. I think it is more OK now, too, with girls (but not with boys). And they were making selfies. The irony is, had the third girl been with them, perhaps three girls hugging for a selfie could have been OK with the BG, but two might have raised his anger. Especially if he was struggling with sexuality issues.

 

[Jax49]

Thank you! ‘Upstream’ is very useful info! Def undermines my speculation

It was suggested that being upstream was one reason they weren't located earlier. People expected them to be on the trails or downstream. moo

 

[ab01]

My thinking was that the bodies would’ve been carried by the water, or maybe he entered the water & moved them after the fact ...... it’s the movement of girls, both/either before & after COD, that raises the most questions in this matter

The water flows in the opposite direction as to the area from the bridge the bodies were found.

It would be extremely unlikely for the bodies to be moved with such low water and so little current regardless if it was in the correct direction, its a creek and not a river and bodies don't float shortly after death.

it would be extremely difficult to move the two dead bodies in a timely fashion and without leaving a mountain of evidence. JMO

I think they were likely killed where they were found JMO

 

[acutename]

You can see in the map I made, that the creek is shallow right about where the bodies were found (50 feet in from the creek bank.) Google Earth can't tell us exactly what the level of the water was that day... but, you can see the sand bars... so, even if below water level, it is shallow there. I think a person could cross there (not comfortably due to the weather) but, imo, this is the easiest place to cross that creek.

From the place where the bodies were found, imo, the killer would be more likely to head up the hill towards the cemetery and then... there is a path up that that follows the ridge of that hill... where he could head back through the woods towards the bridge and, from there, leave the area by either entrance. He could have also left by way of the cemetery but I think he'd need a ride (either his own vehicle or picked up by someone... taking a bigger chance of being seen though.)

He could have crossed back over the creek and left the park by way of the dirt road that goes under the bridge... imo, I doubt he re-crossed the bridge, itself... too much of a chance to come across other park visitors, imo.

I think the most difficult choice would be to walk along the creek if there is no path there and I don't think there is. In places the banks are quite high with irregular walking surfaces; tangled with brush, fallen trees, branches... Again, I'm not sure if there's an actual path along the creek but, even if there is, it wouldn't be the most direct or "hidden" way to leave the park, imo. I also think it would eventually lead to some climbing, as well.

(The yellow pin marking where the girls were found is approximate. I didn't measure 50 feet in from the bank but the location shown is very close.)

ETA: Walking along the creek bank would also expose the killer to more chance of being observed at some points on a hike like that... (even by people crossing the bridge.)

in the winter, when there are no leaves on the trees, can you see the spot of the murder from the bridge? these google maps with all the trees leafed out make the spot look more remote than some winter views I have seen.

 

[kiaatcher]

I think they were likely killed where they were found JMO

It's been a while since I've looked at the info on this case, but they aren't releasing any details of how the girls were killed, correct? The only non-bloody way he could have killed them would be strangulation, but then fingerprints would be left behind. Very odd circumstances.

 

[Boxer]

It's been a while since I've looked at the info on this case, but they aren't releasing any details of how the girls were killed, correct? The only non-bloody way he could have killed them would be strangulation, but then fingerprints would be left behind. Very odd circumstances.

MOO gloves.

 

[Jax49]

It's been a while since I've looked at the info on this case, but they aren't releasing any details of how the girls were killed, correct? The only non-bloody way he could have killed them would be strangulation, but then fingerprints would be left behind. Very odd circumstances.

IMHO, it was an extremely bloody crime scene.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Doug Carter said, "We're just getting started." To me, that suggests they're not close to solving this case. That he released more audio, after adamantly refusing to release more audio, suggests the same thing. They've even tipped their hand, revealing that they believe the killer is familiar with Delphi. In other words, the lack of progress in this case has made them rethink their strategy. It looks like they're starting over. Carter, however, puts a different spin on it: "For more than two years you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have." I have no idea what this means. Does he think the killer thinks, because LE has gotten nowhere, they're just going to quit? "Ha!" Carter exclaims. "Think again!"

My take with the NEW DIRECTION and JUST GETTING STARTED is that they are just getting started with putting together their case now for the DA. They've already pinned it to someone specifically IMO. Now it's time to build the necessary evidence house

 

[DancingMuse]

It's been a while since I've looked at the info on this case, but they aren't releasing any details of how the girls were killed, correct? The only non-bloody way he could have killed them would be strangulation, but then fingerprints would be left behind. Very odd circumstances.

Good point kiaatcher,

You are correct. Strangulation was one "non-bloody" way.

It has also been mentioned that BG could have drowned either one or both of them, immediately, or, on the other side of the river.

(Horrific.)

He ended up crossing the river .... because there might have been more cover with leaves he saw on the other side, where he planned to conceal them.

(So awful to even write.)

 

[Charlot123]

I don't have time to find the exact post right now, but someone posted the church's newsletter from that month and The Shack was NOT the film screened that night.

“The Shack” to me seems to be a primitive (sorry) attempt to process complicated issues. It was more of a hint at religiosity, I think.

But no matter what religion, or no religion at all, confession is about morality. Morality is what makes us human.

If I were in the situation when I had to gather the strength to do a moral thing, i’d read “Crime and Punishment” by Dostoevsky and even more, “the Resurrection” by Tolstoy. They provide good guidances in these situations. What prevents the BG from confession, in my opinion, is fear mixed with vanity. True humility has to start from within, and the person has to walk this way alone.

 

[ab01]

in the winter, when there are no leaves on the trees, can you see the spot of the murder from the bridge? these google maps with all the trees leafed out make the spot look more remote than some winter views I have seen.

IIRC there is a pretty significant bend in Deer creek that would make it impossible to see the location of the victim recovery site from the bridge. even without foliage MOO

 

[Indy55]

That’s discouraging but I expect suspect fatigue has probably affected this small town; this is totally off base BUT if anybody there really knows who BG is I wouldn’t mind seeing a scene out of the old Frankenstein movie where the townspeople chase the monster thru town carrying torches...