Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #95

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gregjrichards said:
You are correct Libby had went to a class about it not long before she was killed and that’s what she decided she wanted to do.
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Yes I definitely recall that too. Was it an evening class? I don’t think it was at her HS. Good thing we still have our memories because some of this information is becoming difficult to find links for.
 
Betty P said:
BBM

I've always felt he's local (from Delphi or the surrounding towns/cities) and he's done these precursive things before, especially voyeurism and/or stalking. They also say he had a vivid fantasy life and had fantasized about committing this crime. Planned out all the details. He's someone about whom family or local LE might say "Well, he's just a creep, or he's just joking around. He wouldn't kill anyone. He's harmless. It's not him." They probably have interviewed him already.
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Can they check reports of voyerism/exhibitionism/stalking/anything sexually creepy in the previous, say, 3 years in/ around Delphi area? Even Purdue, in the year that the woman reported the violent attack linked here?

Even better, since the man is 20-30, check Delphi alone for the last 15 years, when he allegedly had no car?

I bet they will find something.
 
Choochoobella said:
Best Case Worst Case Delphi Murders Podcast



What makes investigations like this so challenging? How would you have overseen this crime scene investigation?


This would have been a difficult crime scene. Francey cited these facts: the crime was in an outdoor area, subject to environmental conditions; it was a ½ mile off the trail; and it was February and therefore cold and possibly wet in Indiana. Francey mentioned that although we don’t know the COD for Abby and Libby, she speculates there was a sexual element to the crime. She said “the girls were left in such a state that there is likely to have been some DNA left on them.” She then added the caveat that sometimes there isn’t even touch DNA left in violent crime scenes.


Francey asked Maureen to talk about what her goals would have been if she had overseen this crime scene investigation.


Maureen said she would cordon everything off and pay particular attention to the pathway taken down to where the perpetrator led the girls. They would be looking for boot prints, shoe prints, and would try to figure out the position the girls were in as he led them down the hill. They would also look for clues to the perpetrator’s egress route (his path out).


Maureen’s gut tells her the girls were left posed or staged based on the press conference. Bobby and Maureen worked on the L.A. case of Samantha Runyon whose body had been posed and that was another time she saw a hardened, seasoned homicide detective cry. “So it’s that type of thing, it’s the victimization on top of victimization, the piling on that these people do for their own personal gratification.” In a situation like that, there’s going to be a lot of evidence that must be carefully collected and maintained.


Maureen and Bobby also said the FBI has software that allows them to deal with the massive number of tips that come in. The software divvies up the tips to investigators and allows LE to track the leads property.
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Thank you so much for your time spent in sharing this with us. I've always believed the girls were posed too. I think he probably left a signature as well. I get the impression that Carter would like to tear him apart. Repeatedly JMO.
 
Betty P said:
Thank you Choochoobella! Great work and this is some very helpful information from the former FBI agents. I found this particularly interesting



BBM

I've always felt he's local (from Delphi or the surrounding towns/cities) and he's done these precursive things before, especially voyeurism and/or stalking. They also say he had a vivid fantasy life and had fantasized about committing this crime. Planned out all the details. He's someone about whom family or local LE might say "Well, he's just a creep, or he's just joking around. He wouldn't kill anyone. He's harmless. It's not him." They probably have interviewed him already.
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Betty, to your point, LE considered Danny Heinrich, who killed Jacob Wetterling, an annoying, weird, but relatively harmless nuisance for years. In that case, LE missed so many clues that would have led them to Danny Heinrich as Jacob's killer. Instead, Heinrich flew under the radar for 26 years.

I don't liken Abby and Libby's case to Jacob's. Although we don't have an arrest yet, I believe LE will figure out who murdered Abby and Libby in the near future.

Why law enforcement didn't see that Danny Heinrich killed Jacob Wetterling | Missing a Murderer | APM Reports
 
Charlot123 said:
Makes me wonder her motives. Did he look so scary that she decided to capture him, or did the girls plan to make a photo and expose him to the whole world, for something he did? Like, pretending to be a peer and talking to them online?

And did the BG eliminate them as witnesses, or is it his modus operandi, to lure teenagers/women into a trap?
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This is the biggest mystery for me as well. If Libby was alarmed, why didn’t she turn her back and dial 911 instead. She would’ve have had to speak, just let the call dial through.

I recall lots of interesting prior discussion about what looks like a fragment on the left side of one of the still photos, which clearly were snipped from the video in order to feature the murderer. Is that the edge of Abby’s arm? Some people think it is and I’m 50/50, it might be. I’m surprised that discussion hasn’t arisen again because it places Libby alone at the end of the bridge with her cellphone when she captured the audio and Abby almost beside BG on the bridge.
 
MsBetsy said:
I think they are looking for the driver or someone who knows the driver of a specific car. Imo
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LE has the vehicle, so they got quite a bit of information from the tags, registration, and possibly some evidence from inside it.

I think what they are searching/asking for now, is more detailed info from a person or persons who may have witnessed any activity involving the vehicle that day, e.g.:
  1. Arrival - Did you see the vehicle actually being driven? What time? What direction was it travelling in, or from direction did it turn off the road into the parking lot? Did you see the driver? Did you see the driver exit the vehicle? What did he/she do after exiting? Retrieve items from it? Walk away? In what direction? Were there any passengers in the vehicle? What did they do? Can you describe the driver and/or any other people you saw? Can you describe him/her - face, stature, gait, clothing, etc., Were there any individuals who on the ground who appeared to be waiting for the vehicle to arrive?
  2. Departure - same basic questions in reverse - did you see someone approach the vehicle? What time? What direction did he/ she come from? Was the person on foot? Alone or with others? Dropped off by another vehicle? Can you describe him/her - face, stature, gait, clothing, carrying items? Which way did the vehicle go when it left the lot?
I don't think LE expects to be able to find someone who saw everything there from 12-5. But, what if someone happened drive by and saw something they felt was suspicious? Or pulled in by the building to turn around and saw someone or something? LE is looking for any missing pieces that will help them possibly tie a driver to the car and/or possibly tie him/her to the crime. JMO
 
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Charlot123 said:
Can they check reports of voyerism/exhibitionism/stalking/anything sexually creepy in the previous, say, 3 years in/ around Delphi area? Even Purdue, in the year that the woman reported the violent attack linked here?

Even better, since the man is 20-30, check Delphi alone for the last 15 years, when he allegedly had no car?

I bet they will find something.
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Absolutely, for all the towns and cities in about a 60+ mile radius. I had a real awakening on this case after listening to a series of podcasts linked in the Jacob Wetterling thread. His abductor/killer should have been caught much sooner. He lived about 30 miles away in another small town. He had been busted before for trying to pick up and sexually assault young pre-teen and early teen boys. It had been reported a number of times but LE didn't take it too seriously. But they had information about him that could have led to his arrest in Jacob's case.

The podcasts emphasized so much that's known now about profiling in these cases and the difficulty of multiple law enforcement agencies in scattered towns and counties to communicate with each other about pervs in their area that may have escalated to more serious crimes in nearby towns and cities.

Law enforcement comes clean on botched Wetterling investigation | 'All of us failed' | APM Reports

The odds are very small that it's a stranger just passing through, finding these girls, attacking them and killing them there.

Another link with all the "In the Dark" podcasts about the Wetterling abduction and investigation.

In the Dark, Season 1 (Jacob Wetterling) | Podcast | APM Reports
 
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slightlyaskew said:
There is no evidence that would suggest these crimes are related
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I've looked at over 1,000 cases from the last 40 or so year across a large area, mainly Midwest and into Kentucky, since A&L were murdered. Thinking it was an older, organized killer, up until recent times. After the presser it appears to be a younger killer, I'm thinking 20's to early 30's.

Of all those unsolved homicide cases in the area described, very few involve a pair of juveniles abducted and then murdered. We're talking under ten if I remember correctly (IIRC), maybe even less than six. It's so rare that it barely registers in internet searches.

The chances that the Cedar Rapids and Delphi cases are related are about zero.

JMO
 
RedBeard said:
I agree, most serial killers start out like this, they go out on impulses and seemingly get lucky before they move on to a pattern. I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a serial killer yet, but he obviously is either crazy or evil enough to kill in such a matter of fact way as the case has been purported (we don't know the facts so thats just speculation) . I kinda worry about the latest press conference for the fact this might be his first homicide and if he is easily jostled it could induce him to act again depending on his psyche. I wanna trust law enforcement though and hope they know a lot more than some of us think and they have a good profile/moving the case further.
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Yes, that's a very good point.
Now I'm wondering if, based on what they have learned about him and his profile, they believe he is very likely to act again.
If anything I think what they said would make him nervous and deter him. It sounds like they think he was pretty confident before and may have been getting relaxed enough to kill again.
Serial Killers enjoy the game, but they don't want to get caught. They learn from their mistakes, and get more and more skilled every time.
I remember reading about Deangelo and how each time a victim confronted him and he risked getting caught, he put more time between the murders. He waited several years sometimes.

It could be that this guy was getting very comfortable and confident that he had gotten away with it.
I don't think he would be provoked to kill again after what Carter said at the Press Conference. I think they intended to scare him and he is going crazy wondering what they have on him. He is probably feeling way too intimidated to act again now. Jmo
 
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Ive watched a handful of interviews with Becky over the weekend and the one thing that stands out to me is in every interview she describes the series of events of that day. She always states that when Derick gets to the trailhead he runs into a guy. In some interviews she goes into greater details than others about the guys description. In one interview she said Derick said it was an older guy. In another interview she gave the detail that he was wearing a flannel shirt.

She said in a few of the interviews that Derrick asked this guy if he had seen two girls, he said he had not but he did see a couple by the water. At that time Derrick takes the trial that goes down to the water, see’s nothing and heads back to the trail head. He than takes the trail in the direction of the Freedom Bridge. Becky states that Derrick runs into that guy again...

If i look at the timeline I can’t help but think that this guy is pretty suspect. I mean now that LE is talking about a vehicle at that social service building wouldn’t that be in the same direction as this trail that Derrick runs into this guy again? Towards the Freedom Bridge?
 
Blueberry2720 said:
LE has the vehicle, so they got quite a bit of information from the tags, registration, and possibly some evidence from inside it.

I think what they are searching/asking for now, is more detailed info from a person or persons who may have witnessed any activity involving the vehicle that day, e.g.:
  1. Arrival - Did you see the vehicle actually being driven? What time? What direction was it travelling in, or from direction did in turn off the road into the parking lot? Did you see the driver? Did you see the driver exit the vehicle? What did he/she do after exiting? Retrieve items from it? Walk away? In what direction? Were there any passengers in the vehicle? What did they do? Can you describe the driver and/or any other people you saw? Can you describe him/her - face, stature, gait, clothing, etc., Were there any individuals who on the ground who appeared to be waiting for the vehicle to arrive?
  2. Departure - same basic questions in reverse - did you see someone approach the vehicle? What time? What direction did he/ she come from? Was the person on foot? Alone or with others? Dropped off by another vehicle? Can you describe him/her - face, stature, gait, clothing, carrying items? Which way did the vehicle go when it left the lot?
I don't think LE expects to be able to find someone who saw everything there from 12-5. But, what if someone happened drive by and saw something they felt was suspicious? Or pulled in by the building to turn around and saw someone or something? LE is looking for any missing pieces that will help them possibly tie a driver to the car and/or possibly tie him/her to the crime. JMO
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Can you link re: LE has the car? I'm not aware of that.
 
Blueberry2720 said:
LE has the vehicle, so they got quite a bit of information from the tags, registration, and possibly some evidence from inside it.

I think what they are searching/asking for now, is more detailed info from a person or persons who may have witnessed any activity involving the vehicle that day, e.g.:
  1. Arrival - Did you see the vehicle actually being driven? What time? What direction was it travelling in, or from direction did in turn off the road into the parking lot? Did you see the driver? Did you see the driver exit the vehicle? What did he/she do after exiting? Retrieve items from it? Walk away? In what direction? Were there any passengers in the vehicle? What did they do? Can you describe the driver and/or any other people you saw? Can you describe him/her - face, stature, gait, clothing, etc., Were there any individuals who on the ground who appeared to be waiting for the vehicle to arrive?
  2. Departure - same basic questions in reverse - did you see someone approach the vehicle? What time? What direction did he/ she come from? Was the person on foot? Alone or with others? Dropped off by another vehicle? Can you describe him/her - face, stature, gait, clothing, carrying items? Which way did the vehicle go when it left the lot?
I don't think LE expects to be able to find someone who saw everything there from 12-5. But, what if someone happened drive by and saw something they felt was suspicious? Or pulled in by the building to turn around and saw someone or something? LE is looking for any missing pieces that will help them possibly tie a driver to the car and/or possibly tie him/her to the crime. JMO
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I have not seen where LE has the car in question, do you have a link?
 
Falling Down said:
I can guarantee it. he may even be a member here at WS.

My take for some time now is he gets off on the attention his crimes get.

JMO
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Yes and for that same reason I visualize him as a nobody in real life. Much like Carter said, what a pathetic piece of skin, killing little girls so he can feel important.
 
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