x_files
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or that too, cool or cute.
Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #97
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or that too, cool or cute.
ab01
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I don't believe there was ever intent or ability to use charm.....MOO
raja
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This may have been mentioned so excuse me if it has. This guy getting harassed had a very good alibi because he was at church. This shows that Delphi has strong church ties which is nice to have in a small community don't you think?
x_files
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I never thought it was possible from someone to go from laughing relaxed to springing into extreme violence over a slight ego bruise.
raja
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Maybe he has "hat hair" like I do when I take a hat off. Hair goes every where.
IceyIllusion
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Yes, this is also what I am thinking. It would be harder for a lot of people to try and get away knowing their actions directly could result in an injury or murder to their best friend/family member vs knowing only you yourself are in jeopardy. It is a method that preys upon the target's empathy and caring of the other person.
MsBetsy
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Yes, if anything I would think the killer is not at all religious and has no ties to any church.
I think he is a bit of a loner or a recluse, although he may have a small circle of friends. I think he is the type who just blends in rather than stands out. I don't think he is college educated, but is fairly intelligent, with poor social skills.
The main reason I believe this is because I don't think if he was exposed to so many different people he would be able to "hide in plain sight" very easily. Too many people would notice something.
That, and the very nature of the crime. People don't just suddenly decide to murder two young girls, and then go back to their lives as if nothing happened. It takes a particular type of sicko to do something like this. I think he did what he did to feel in control and "important" because nothing else in his life makes him feel that way.
I also don't think he has a particular profession. He may have trouble holding a job, or has had a variety of different jobs or for a period of time, none at all.
Of course I could be wrong and he could be a well respected, highly educated member of the community.
But I don't think so.
If he is, then he is pretty darn good at not showing his true self, to a great number of people around him. Imo
MistyWaters
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That people came forward offering information about who and what they sighted in the area that day was only a starting point for LE because not one of those people actually witnessed the murder. That LE changed directions isn’t an indication of incompetence, it’s a sign of an intense ongoing investigation IMO.
Worse case scenario, LE could’ve hauled in some down and out character who resembled sketch #1 and probably right at this moment everyone would be giving them kudos over their outstanding police work......even thought the real killer walked free.
susiQ
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I guess we all see and hear differntly
For me, it wasn't only what Carter said, it was his body language. IT spoke volumes to me. MOO
x_files
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A psychopath could easily return to normal life without skipping a beat.
GrouchoMarxist
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If BG is a psychopath, he has the ability to "compartmentalize" the different facets of his life, and probably has no need to tell anyone else. Think of Dennis Rader, who was president of his church, a husband and father, and a "solid citizen" (although not always a popular one), who had an entire other life where perversion and murder ruled. MOO.
Choochoobella
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As mentioned earlier, part two of the "Best Case Worst Case" podcast was released today and it continues the discussion of the murders of Abby and Libby.
123 | Worst Case Scenario: The Delphi Murders (Part 2) from Best Case Worst Case
The regulars on this podcast are former FBI profiler Jim Clemente and former state and federal prosecutor Francey Hakes. There were two guests on the Delphi murders podcast, both retired FBI special agents, Bobby Ciccone and Maureen O'Connell.
I’ve summarized what was said about various topics we’ve been discussing. You’ll see that WS members have made many of these points too.
I’ve broken the topics up into different posts that were covered so you can only read about whatever you are interested in.
123 | Worst Case Scenario: The Delphi Murders (Part 2) from Best Case Worst Case
The regulars on this podcast are former FBI profiler Jim Clemente and former state and federal prosecutor Francey Hakes. There were two guests on the Delphi murders podcast, both retired FBI special agents, Bobby Ciccone and Maureen O'Connell.
I’ve summarized what was said about various topics we’ve been discussing. You’ll see that WS members have made many of these points too.
I’ve broken the topics up into different posts that were covered so you can only read about whatever you are interested in.
Choochoobella
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Best Case Worst Case Delphi Murders Podcast, Part Two
Why did LE do an unusual lead-up to the press conference and conduct the press conference in the way they did?
Maureen said all the police entities involved in this case started putting out information on social media saying, “There’s big information coming down the pike on the Delphi murders. Expect a huge announcement on the Delphi murders.” It created a social media frenzy. The panelists commented that it is very interesting that they gave us so much time to prepare for the conference. The lead-up culminated on Friday when they announced the press conference would be held on Monday.
The panelists said there is always an investigative strategic reason for how a press conference is conducted. We’ll ultimately find out that they had some strategic investigative reason for the press conference. Jim said the strategy was that they want the killer to know they are coming for him. They now have a laser focus on him. The press conference alerted people around the perp to the fact that his behavior has been changing. Jim said ever since the perp heard the press conference was coming, his behavior would have started to change. Jim said he knows Carter’s message was scripted by the FBI’s behavioral analysis unit. Jim said that since the press conference, the perp will do things that will put a spotlight on him. He can no longer hide.
They discussed some of the specific things Carter did and said. LE invited the media and the public to this pc, had a lot of seats available, but they didn’t take a single question. Was that a set-up to see if the killer arrived? The panelists think they did a long lead-up to this press conference to get the offender’s attention. They could tell that Carter felt, without a doubt, the offender was listening to the press conference if he was not in the audience. A chill wind went through the room when he said that. They felt the goal of Carter talking directly to the perpetrator made everyone, well beyond the confines of that room, look more carefully at everyone around them. Even if the perp is not still In Delphi, people who suspect him will know he moved out after the murders and LE can trace him.
Jim said LE probably used a metal detector on everyone who came into that room. Maureen thinks the behavioral analysis unit has gone very carefully through all the video footage of the room that was obtained during the press conference. Carter was very careful in his comments. When he said, “You are a coward,” he emphasized the word “coward” and waited a moment before going on. He was also trying to move the killer to turn himself in when he said, “What will those closest to you think when they find out that you murdered two little girls?”
Why did LE do an unusual lead-up to the press conference and conduct the press conference in the way they did?
Maureen said all the police entities involved in this case started putting out information on social media saying, “There’s big information coming down the pike on the Delphi murders. Expect a huge announcement on the Delphi murders.” It created a social media frenzy. The panelists commented that it is very interesting that they gave us so much time to prepare for the conference. The lead-up culminated on Friday when they announced the press conference would be held on Monday.
The panelists said there is always an investigative strategic reason for how a press conference is conducted. We’ll ultimately find out that they had some strategic investigative reason for the press conference. Jim said the strategy was that they want the killer to know they are coming for him. They now have a laser focus on him. The press conference alerted people around the perp to the fact that his behavior has been changing. Jim said ever since the perp heard the press conference was coming, his behavior would have started to change. Jim said he knows Carter’s message was scripted by the FBI’s behavioral analysis unit. Jim said that since the press conference, the perp will do things that will put a spotlight on him. He can no longer hide.
They discussed some of the specific things Carter did and said. LE invited the media and the public to this pc, had a lot of seats available, but they didn’t take a single question. Was that a set-up to see if the killer arrived? The panelists think they did a long lead-up to this press conference to get the offender’s attention. They could tell that Carter felt, without a doubt, the offender was listening to the press conference if he was not in the audience. A chill wind went through the room when he said that. They felt the goal of Carter talking directly to the perpetrator made everyone, well beyond the confines of that room, look more carefully at everyone around them. Even if the perp is not still In Delphi, people who suspect him will know he moved out after the murders and LE can trace him.
Jim said LE probably used a metal detector on everyone who came into that room. Maureen thinks the behavioral analysis unit has gone very carefully through all the video footage of the room that was obtained during the press conference. Carter was very careful in his comments. When he said, “You are a coward,” he emphasized the word “coward” and waited a moment before going on. He was also trying to move the killer to turn himself in when he said, “What will those closest to you think when they find out that you murdered two little girls?”
Choochoobella
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Best Case Worst Case Delphi Murders Podcast, Part Two
Is it wise to possible enrage a killer with these comments? How might this perpetrator react?
Francey asked if we should piss off a homicidal maniac with those words. Are we worried we’re going to enrage a man who has already killed two little girls? LE is trying to get him to show himself, to run, and they will track him down. The FBI profilers said this perpetrator is not the type to go out and confront people or shoot people. He’s too much of a coward. He’s going after little girls. He is lying in wait in the woods for little girls. When they call him a coward, he’ll recognize himself. The stress reaction this perpetrator will exhibit will not be to confront; it will be to run and hide. What entices this perpetrator and gives him the most satisfaction? Having power over the most vulnerable. He doesn’t have the balls or guts to go up against someone his size, someone who’s more powerful than him.
What was the strategic reason behind Carter saying, “I think you might have an ounce of conscience left?” Jim said they are trying to appeal to the perpetrator. They’re giving him the opportunity to turn himself in to LE, to not have this end in suicide by cop. They want to give him the opportunity to say, “I can prove myself as a human being; I can go back and repair some of the damage I did.” They’re giving him a chance for redemption.
Is it wise to possible enrage a killer with these comments? How might this perpetrator react?
Francey asked if we should piss off a homicidal maniac with those words. Are we worried we’re going to enrage a man who has already killed two little girls? LE is trying to get him to show himself, to run, and they will track him down. The FBI profilers said this perpetrator is not the type to go out and confront people or shoot people. He’s too much of a coward. He’s going after little girls. He is lying in wait in the woods for little girls. When they call him a coward, he’ll recognize himself. The stress reaction this perpetrator will exhibit will not be to confront; it will be to run and hide. What entices this perpetrator and gives him the most satisfaction? Having power over the most vulnerable. He doesn’t have the balls or guts to go up against someone his size, someone who’s more powerful than him.
What was the strategic reason behind Carter saying, “I think you might have an ounce of conscience left?” Jim said they are trying to appeal to the perpetrator. They’re giving him the opportunity to turn himself in to LE, to not have this end in suicide by cop. They want to give him the opportunity to say, “I can prove myself as a human being; I can go back and repair some of the damage I did.” They’re giving him a chance for redemption.
MistyWaters
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I think the Delphi area in general has strong religious ties for two reasons, the number of churches in relation to the population, plus other religious references made in prior press conference held by local officials. I may be wrong but I seem to recall one press conference even began with a prayer.
So in all honesty, I didn’t think the reference to religion by Carter in this latest press conference held any great significance other than he was aware that it’s a wise practise to connect with the audience (ie locals) whom he was speaking to. One of the ways he did so was by acknowledging their faith and therefore I don’t think it was intended as an outright clue to the identity of the murderer. JMO
Choochoobella
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Best Case Worst Case Delphi Murders Podcast, Part Two
Is this killer of children capable of any kind of remorse?
Jim said, “You can’t put everyone into a little pigeon hole. Just because he did this one thing doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a family, doesn’t have friends, doesn’t have a job, doesn’t have people that love him and that he loves. He could have all these things and still be the person that killed these little girls. It’s probably very inconsistent with how people around him see him. It’s important that people understand the guy they’re looking for is not someone who looks like a monster predator. That is a label that makes you look right past him because you would never see him as that, but the fact is that he IS the guy who killed these two girls. He’s been hiding this thing. It has been eating at the predator ever since it happened. He fantasized about doing it before it happened. His behavior has most definitely changed since the killings happened.”
Bobby cited the example of Israel Keyes. There are many interviews with him now available on Youtube. Israel told the interrogators that you can talk with a lot of people and you’re going to get a picture of a person who is not the person I’m going to tell you about. Israel admitted to being a SK, admitted to doing so many heinous things. But he said there was another part of him who was the father of an 11-year-old daughter, and he didn’t want her to know all the heinous things he had done. Jim thought this is probably why Israel killed himself. He was too much of a coward to face his daughter.
Is this killer of children capable of any kind of remorse?
Jim said, “You can’t put everyone into a little pigeon hole. Just because he did this one thing doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a family, doesn’t have friends, doesn’t have a job, doesn’t have people that love him and that he loves. He could have all these things and still be the person that killed these little girls. It’s probably very inconsistent with how people around him see him. It’s important that people understand the guy they’re looking for is not someone who looks like a monster predator. That is a label that makes you look right past him because you would never see him as that, but the fact is that he IS the guy who killed these two girls. He’s been hiding this thing. It has been eating at the predator ever since it happened. He fantasized about doing it before it happened. His behavior has most definitely changed since the killings happened.”
Bobby cited the example of Israel Keyes. There are many interviews with him now available on Youtube. Israel told the interrogators that you can talk with a lot of people and you’re going to get a picture of a person who is not the person I’m going to tell you about. Israel admitted to being a SK, admitted to doing so many heinous things. But he said there was another part of him who was the father of an 11-year-old daughter, and he didn’t want her to know all the heinous things he had done. Jim thought this is probably why Israel killed himself. He was too much of a coward to face his daughter.
MizStery
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Hey TTF14,I also want to thank-you for the link to the Apple podcast link.
123 | Worst Case Scenario: The Delphi Murders (Part 2) from Best Case Worst Case
I do not remember who on the podcast panel emphasized that the perp ‘didn’t have the ba!!s to choose an adult as a victim.’
I agree with them! BG chose young girls because he wanted victims who were easy to control.This coward hunted only the most vulnerable children. He wanted victims who would comply and fulfill his evil fantasy. Then he planned to quickly run and hide believing he had fooled investigators.
I believe wherever he is hiding; justice is coming for him.
MOO
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FinePrint
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My feelings exactly!!!
Choochoobella
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Best Case Worst Case Delphi Murders Podcast, Part Two
What kind of impact could the press conference have on the perpetrator and those around him?
Francey asked about the power issue. Carter said, “We’ve likely interviewed you or someone close to you. We know this is about power to you and you want to know what we know and one day you will.” What was the point of that?
Jim said Carter is trying to make the offender aware that everything is closing in on him, that the people that know him will be his worst enemies now. The people that are closest to him and have been hiding him in plain sight are going to come forward and say, “After the press conference, this happened and that happened.”
The perpetrator is not sophisticated enough to survive this scrutiny; he’s not able to be able to mask himself any more. He’s going to be revealed. Bobby said Carter was talking to the killer, but also telling everyone to look carefully at everyone around them because someone you know killed these kids. Jim thought the person has changed his appearance little by little ever since the murders and if he hasn’t, he did right after that press conference when he saw that sketch (he might have changed hair color, grown a beard, manipulated his eyebrows, got tattoos, etc.). He has very likely done something to draw attention away from how he looks. Jim said the thing about sketches is that whenever offenders see themselves in a sketch, it scares the s**t out of them.
What kind of impact could the press conference have on the perpetrator and those around him?
Francey asked about the power issue. Carter said, “We’ve likely interviewed you or someone close to you. We know this is about power to you and you want to know what we know and one day you will.” What was the point of that?
Jim said Carter is trying to make the offender aware that everything is closing in on him, that the people that know him will be his worst enemies now. The people that are closest to him and have been hiding him in plain sight are going to come forward and say, “After the press conference, this happened and that happened.”
The perpetrator is not sophisticated enough to survive this scrutiny; he’s not able to be able to mask himself any more. He’s going to be revealed. Bobby said Carter was talking to the killer, but also telling everyone to look carefully at everyone around them because someone you know killed these kids. Jim thought the person has changed his appearance little by little ever since the murders and if he hasn’t, he did right after that press conference when he saw that sketch (he might have changed hair color, grown a beard, manipulated his eyebrows, got tattoos, etc.). He has very likely done something to draw attention away from how he looks. Jim said the thing about sketches is that whenever offenders see themselves in a sketch, it scares the s**t out of them.
Choochoobella
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Best Case Worst Case Delphi Murders Podcast, Part Two
Of what value was the additional audio and video released in the press conference?
Why release a little more of the audio? Maureen thinks the only reason they released more was part of a brilliant plan to stress out the offender in the hope of luring him in. Jim said Carter made a point of saying it sounds like two different people in the two audio clips, but it is the same person. Jim suggested the perp may have been masking his voice in one or the other of the audio releases: “hey guys” versus “down the hill.”
That’s also why they released the video instead of the stills. People will notice more with the release of the video. Jim repeated Maureen’s observation about how the video makes it even clearer that the guy isn’t as stocky as he may have appeared in the stills. His gait makes him seem overweight, but when you look at him walking, you can see his legs are pretty thin, that he’s wearing oversized clothing to either make himself look bigger or because he was hiding equipment in his upper body clothing. Jim also noted the bulky clothing may also have been because this guy was hanging out in the woods for a while waiting for a victim. Maureen noted the upper body clothing was “pokey, bulgy,” more like the perp was hiding equipment rather than wearing 3 sweaters.
Bobby said they wanted to release a little more of the video because all of this goes to this guy’s signature. They asked people to look closely at his gait on that bridge. Bobby pointed out that the bridge treads are far apart, it’s a very high bridge and there’s no guard rail, yet the perpetrator’s hands are in his pockets. Someone should recognize the guy’s gait. If it’s someone you see all the time and turn off the lights, you can still recognize a person’s gait by their shadow.
They also think LE wants the perp to realize they could release even more audio of him. By releasing a little more audio at this press conference, they are alerting the perp “we have more.”
There was a brief discussion of the perp’s use of the term “guys.” Francey, a southerner, noted someone from the south would have said “y’all.”
Of what value was the additional audio and video released in the press conference?
Why release a little more of the audio? Maureen thinks the only reason they released more was part of a brilliant plan to stress out the offender in the hope of luring him in. Jim said Carter made a point of saying it sounds like two different people in the two audio clips, but it is the same person. Jim suggested the perp may have been masking his voice in one or the other of the audio releases: “hey guys” versus “down the hill.”
That’s also why they released the video instead of the stills. People will notice more with the release of the video. Jim repeated Maureen’s observation about how the video makes it even clearer that the guy isn’t as stocky as he may have appeared in the stills. His gait makes him seem overweight, but when you look at him walking, you can see his legs are pretty thin, that he’s wearing oversized clothing to either make himself look bigger or because he was hiding equipment in his upper body clothing. Jim also noted the bulky clothing may also have been because this guy was hanging out in the woods for a while waiting for a victim. Maureen noted the upper body clothing was “pokey, bulgy,” more like the perp was hiding equipment rather than wearing 3 sweaters.
Bobby said they wanted to release a little more of the video because all of this goes to this guy’s signature. They asked people to look closely at his gait on that bridge. Bobby pointed out that the bridge treads are far apart, it’s a very high bridge and there’s no guard rail, yet the perpetrator’s hands are in his pockets. Someone should recognize the guy’s gait. If it’s someone you see all the time and turn off the lights, you can still recognize a person’s gait by their shadow.
They also think LE wants the perp to realize they could release even more audio of him. By releasing a little more audio at this press conference, they are alerting the perp “we have more.”
There was a brief discussion of the perp’s use of the term “guys.” Francey, a southerner, noted someone from the south would have said “y’all.”
Choochoobella
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Best Case Worst Case Delphi Murders Podcast, Part Two
Let’s go inside the minds of these investigators and all who work on cases like this. Why was Carter so emotional? How does an investigation like this affect those who work on it?
Carter was visibly emotional. There were times he had to pause. It’s not something we see often from seasoned LE. They try not to present that kind of face to the public.
What effect do you think Carter’s manner had on the perp? Jim thinks Carter’s manner showed humanity and the level of emotion paired perfectly with Carter’s statement that they will not stop until they get this guy. It’s a message to the offender that he can never rest.
Bobby felt the emotion Carter exhibited was honest, raw and genuine. It was important for him as the leader of this effort to demonstrate that emotion, to show that all the men and women working this case are just as emotionally invested as Carter is.
Maureen has worked these terrible crime scenes involving children. There is no way that you can’t become emotionally attached to an investigation. The emotions fuel most investigators to work harder and to do everything possible to catch this person. It’s hard to slow your mind down when you work a case like this.
Do the investigators stay invested two years later? Jim said that nobody tires of a case like this, but it constantly weighs on their shoulders until the case is solved. It taints you. LE goes home to their families and pray that nothing like this ever happens to their loved ones. You realize there are some real horrors out there, some really bad people. You also must harden your heart to survive this kind of work.
Maureen said another unintended consequence of this kind of work is that you find when people complain to you about things, you think, “That doesn’t even ping my radar. I was just with the body of a small child. What are you even complaining about?” Jim said this kind of work makes it difficult to be in relationships. Your significant others are living a normal life and they don’t understand that spilled milk is spilled milk; this is life or death.
Francey signed off by telling the killer that LE is coming after him. Maureen said we’ll all be so happy when he goes down. Maureen expressed great gratitude to her fellow LE officers working on this case. Jim also said he is also grateful for investigative genealogy and that if they recovered any DNA from this scene, they can hunt this guy down.
Let’s go inside the minds of these investigators and all who work on cases like this. Why was Carter so emotional? How does an investigation like this affect those who work on it?
Carter was visibly emotional. There were times he had to pause. It’s not something we see often from seasoned LE. They try not to present that kind of face to the public.
What effect do you think Carter’s manner had on the perp? Jim thinks Carter’s manner showed humanity and the level of emotion paired perfectly with Carter’s statement that they will not stop until they get this guy. It’s a message to the offender that he can never rest.
Bobby felt the emotion Carter exhibited was honest, raw and genuine. It was important for him as the leader of this effort to demonstrate that emotion, to show that all the men and women working this case are just as emotionally invested as Carter is.
Maureen has worked these terrible crime scenes involving children. There is no way that you can’t become emotionally attached to an investigation. The emotions fuel most investigators to work harder and to do everything possible to catch this person. It’s hard to slow your mind down when you work a case like this.
Do the investigators stay invested two years later? Jim said that nobody tires of a case like this, but it constantly weighs on their shoulders until the case is solved. It taints you. LE goes home to their families and pray that nothing like this ever happens to their loved ones. You realize there are some real horrors out there, some really bad people. You also must harden your heart to survive this kind of work.
Maureen said another unintended consequence of this kind of work is that you find when people complain to you about things, you think, “That doesn’t even ping my radar. I was just with the body of a small child. What are you even complaining about?” Jim said this kind of work makes it difficult to be in relationships. Your significant others are living a normal life and they don’t understand that spilled milk is spilled milk; this is life or death.
Francey signed off by telling the killer that LE is coming after him. Maureen said we’ll all be so happy when he goes down. Maureen expressed great gratitude to her fellow LE officers working on this case. Jim also said he is also grateful for investigative genealogy and that if they recovered any DNA from this scene, they can hunt this guy down.
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