Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #98

[MistyWaters]

I am very sure at least the police knew exactly what Libby was wearing but still wanted to confirm (likely protocol) before identifying a deceased person.

Yes, in this case it was searchers who found the bodies but I’d think the same premise would apply, there was some type of protocol that required confirmation the subjects of the search had been located, then other searchers would be instructed to stop searching. My understanding was the search for the girls on the day they were found was quite a large search, organized from the fire dept and searchers were allocated into separate teams who were searching in various areas.

Although I’ve never participated in an organized search, I’d assume it’s - as the name implies - far more organized than a bunch of people out tromping around.

 

[TL4S]

My guess is it's not a "prominent" individual per se, but someone that comes from a respected family, and that doesn't necessarily mean privileged. JMHO

ed: punc.

That's always a possibility. For me, personally, there's been nothing indicating what stature BG's family has in the Delphi community, one way or another. JMO, Carter's demeanor at the PC does not necessarily point towards betrayal, as other's have suggested. It could, of course. But so could there be a lot of other reasons behind it.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Well is today the day? I think today is a great day for an arrest!

Nothing is going to bring these two girls back, but I have to admit I do enjoy the thought of this Coward knowing his days of freedom are numbered; that he has to look over his shoulder constantly, and that every knock could be "the one".

I think of these two girls and the prom they will never have, the graduation ceremonies, off to college, down the aisle, their first home, and holding their first child.

While there can never be full repayment for this unfathomable loss, I am counting on the people of Indiana to insure as much can be taken from the Coward as possible. Let's make sure his stay in his new home in prison will be long and without even the smallest privilege.

The Coward will quickly fade from memory, as he is a nothing. He will be boxed in and forgotten as his should be. The girls, however, will forever be in our minds as two beautiful roses, perhaps as Heavenly helpers to Saint Maria Goretti, who suffered a similar fate.

Thinking of our "two roses" today, and believing an arrest is imminent.

"Born on earth, to blossom in Heaven", Libby and Abby.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[CCJD]

not LE but a reporter/searcher said there were girl's undergarments and clothes in or near the water.

Do you have a link for that?

 

[dotr]

Came across this book and wondered if the whole "zombie " thing was big in Indiana?
Some people might really get carried away with it...
imo, speculation.
https://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Indiana-Novel-Scott-Kenemore/dp/1940456002

"Zombie, Indiana explores the impact of an invading zombie horde on a trio of Hoosier protagonists . . . each of whom have some dark secrets to keep. When the governor’s daughter mysteriously disappears on a field trip, IMPD Special Sergeant James Nolan, scholarship student Kesha Washington, and Governor Hank Burleson must all come together not only to find the governor’s daughter, but also to undertake a quest to redeem the very soul of the state itself . . . all while under constant attack from the living dead."

 

[rosesfromangels]

Came across this book and wondered if the whole "zombie " thing was big in Indiana?
Some people might really get carried away with it...
imo, speculation.
https://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Indiana-Novel-Scott-Kenemore/dp/1940456002

"Zombie, Indiana explores the impact of an invading zombie horde on a trio of Hoosier protagonists . . . each of whom have some dark secrets to keep. When the governor’s daughter mysteriously disappears on a field trip, IMPD Special Sergeant James Nolan, scholarship student Kesha Washington, and Governor Hank Burleson must all come together not only to find the governor’s daughter, but also to undertake a quest to redeem the very soul of the state itself . . . all while under constant attack from the living dead."

As fantastical as that sounds to a balanced mind, anything is possible when you are dealing with a violent offender. Who knows what stimulates this type of insane action. Sure, add Zombie to the trigger list. It makes as much sense as anything else.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[sumzero]

That's always a possibility. For me, personally, there's been nothing indicating what stature BG's family has in the Delphi community, one way or another. JMO, Carter's demeanor at the PC does not necessarily point towards betrayal, as other's have suggested. It could, of course. But so could there be a lot of other reasons behind it.

Well said. I could be wrong, but I doubt BG lives in Delphi. He probably had some connection to Delphi in the past, enough to know about the bridge. But (again, I'm guessing), he probably chose this place because he knew he wouldn't be recognized on sight, should he cross paths with someone. (And, no, I don't think he was wearing a disguise.)

 

[cody22]

Sorry if I’ve missed this, but do we know exactly what type of shoes the girls were wearing? I’m noting that the shoes didn’t come off in the water or during the struggle, etc?

Hellooooo, margarita. I have no idea about Libby's shoes. In the Bridge photo Abby appears to be wearing black and white, old style Chuck Taylor, Converse All Star basketball shoes...A Sunday morning happy moooooooooooooo to you....LOL !

 

[Laughing]

maybe not so odd- most people could wear a variety of sized clothing - maybe it is a bit tight or baggy, but your shoes are probably more specifically sized. MO

Also you might have on several layers of clothes but you are most likely only wearing one pair of shoes.

BBM

No link, but I read here on our beloved Websleuths that the Disney parks train cast members to ask parents to describe the shoes of separated/lost children.

Several years ago, a perp managed to abduct a girl in a Disney park. IIRC, he had an outfit of traditionally male clothes that fit his preferred aged child and was able to cut her hair.

But -- a cast member spotted in "girly" shoes & connected this to the lost/separated girl and saved the day!

(Perhaps that cast member has joined us here?)

In this case, I expect the searchers knew they found the girls' remains. The shoe color was a quick confirmation and a quick tip-off of Kelsie's location. This kept Kelsie away from the crime scene as far as we know.

And, thanks for the image of Abby & Libby blooming in Heaven.

Next Sunday is Mother's Day. Whatever your faith practice, please hold the mothers & grandmothers of these beautiful young ladies in your thoughts, prayers, and hearts this week.

Well, that was wordy!

Best, Laughing

 

[JDough]

I’m behind in the discussion but a “shoe” can be very important for infinite reasons. First of all if it is confirmed as belonging to the victim you not only have a potential initial ID as with Kelsi/Libby in this case, but you may also have physical evidence.

Hypothetically for example, if the victims happened to be found barefoot, but there was no dirt on their feet, that would indicate they didn’t walk to the disposal location and were potentially killed elsewhere.

A shoe can hold all kinds of evidentiary value, for instance matching a print to help determine the wearer’s movements and route at/near the crime scene, etc.

A shoe is ultimately part of the victim’s clothing which could have biological evidence on it (either from the victim(s) and/or perp), and could also have botanical evidence on it.

We have seen so many episodes of Forensics Files, etc where a shoe turned out to be important...

In Hania Aguilar’s case her shoes were missing upon recovery. LE put a photo out of the type of shoes she had.

Shoes have “accidental” markings/wear patterns which are unique to each wearer and shoe making them a unique piece of evidence.

Again I haven’t caught up on the discussion as related to shoes specifically, but I could certainly imagine why discussion of them would be potentially significant as related to forensics, etc. The shoe discussion is especially important imo because really that’s one of the very few things that have been mentioned.

You bring up some very valid points, Margarita. And, I believe you are correct about shoes being an important aspect of the investigation.

Your post reminded me of the first PC, where LE stated the crime scene was "very complicated". (The link for the full PC can be found on page one of the Media Thread for any new readers: IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION). There were probably hundreds of shoe prints to sort through at and near the crime scene.

At the time of their discovery, it was only believed the girl's were lost and possibly injured. Because the search teams included volunteers from the community (who may not have been aware of the importance of footprint evidence), it must have been very difficult for LE to sort through all of the tracks.

 

[Angelcat13]

Sorry if I’ve missed this, but do we know exactly what type of shoes the girls were wearing? I’m noting that the shoes didn’t come off in the water or during the struggle, etc?

Does anyone remember very early on in the case something about someone reporting finding a shoe under the bridge AFTER the scene had been cleared?

 

[cody22]

You bring up some very valid points, Margarita. And, I believe you are correct about shoes being an important aspect of the investigation.

Your post reminded me of the first PC, where LE stated the crime scene was "very complicated". (The link for the full PC can be found on page one of the Media Thread for any new readers: IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION). There were probably hundreds of shoe prints to sort through at and near the crime scene.

At the time of their discovery, it was only believed the girl's were lost and possibly injured. Because the search teams included volunteers from the community (who may not have been aware of the importance of footprint evidence), it must have been very difficult for LE to sort through all of the tracks.

There were probably some shoe prints from the searchers , the evening, and night before also...moo

 

[mtnlites]

I have refrained from commenting on the ‘guys’ part but since we are talking about the youth, basically every single young YouTuber starts their posts with ‘Hey Guys!’ so much so that after hearing it on videos that my kids watch, that it’s stuck in my brain. I use ‘guys’ but at this point I REALLY associate it with the new generation.

Good point. It's such a common thing for You Tubers to say that my 7yo daughter has started doing it every time she gets out her tablet and starts videotaping the cats.

 

[mtnlites]

Just putting this out there....if someone who may or not be related to this case, had public social media profiles and all of a sudden all his social media profiles were changed to private. Would you think 1) he is hiding? or 2) people may be harassing him?

This is just hypothetical...

Both. Having seen some of the stunts that people in those FB groups do to those who they think may be involved, I'd put all my stuff on lockdown. Even private conversations aren't sacred-people are taking screen shots and sharing them, too.

 

[Angelcat13]

Does anyone remember very early on in the case something about someone reporting finding a shoe under the bridge AFTER the scene had been cleared?

Answering my own post - I found a previous discussion about this in Thread 44, starting with post 902.

 

[Sillybilly]

Admin Reminder:

Do not mention or hint at any detail that may be contained in the scanner thread. PERIOD.

You may post a link to the scanner thread with a suggestion that it may be interesting. That's it. Do not bring one single detail up to the main discussion thread.

Thank you.

 

[cody22]

Thanks, Jax49. I don't know how accurate the info is but I'll give Keener the benefit of the doubt since he is a photographer, so I'm assuming he has some pretty spiffy equipment but 75 yards? 225 feet away he can discern "girls clothing". I wonder if he took a photo of it.

Zoom lense ???....moo

 

[mtnlites]

maybe not so odd- most people could wear a variety of sized clothing - maybe it is a bit tight or baggy, but your shoes are probably more specifically sized. MO

Also you might have on several layers of clothes but you are most likely only wearing one pair of shoes.

Shoes can be so important to making a visual ID that there's even a popular urban legend about them. When I was growing up, rumors around my part of the state were that a little girl was on the merry-go-round at King's Island (amusement park) and when it stopped a stranger carried her away. Supposedly he took her into a bathroom where he changed her clothes, cut her hair, and gave her Benadryl. The staff close down the gate and were only letting people out after they'd been inspected. I'd always heard that the reason the guy got caught was despite changing her clothes and cutting her hair, he forgot to change her shoes and that's how she was recognized.

I was 30 years old before I learned that story wasn't real and that most theme parks have a similar story. I always found the psychology behind it interesting. When my husband works SAR and they're training searchers to go into the field, they always tell them to look both at and for shoes. Shoes can be kicked off in a struggle or can fall off, separating them from the victim's body. For that reason, people keep an eye out on them because if you see a lone shoe hanging out, chances are that you're about to find something else. Also, people litter in parks. I have found some strange things over the years. It's not beyond the realm of reason that the shoe could have belonged to someone else and not connected to this case at all, hence one of the reasons for identifying it before anyone moved and possibly contaminate a crime scene.

ETA: I wrote this before reading @Laughing's post so now it looks like I am responding to her when I wasn't. This story about the child's shoes has been going around since about 1982. When I was growing up, the story took place at King's Island (the closest theme park to us), but I've also heard people swear that it happened at Cedar Point, Disneyland, Six Flags, etc. You can find the story in big stores, too, like Walmart and Sam's Club. I just checked it on Snopes and it has a pretty good explanation as to where and how this story came to be. It's interesting.

 

[margarita25]

Does anyone remember very early on in the case something about someone reporting finding a shoe under the bridge AFTER the scene had been cleared?

Yes absolutely.

ETA: I see below you have found that discussion. I will link.

Answering my own post - I found a previous discussion about this in Thread 44, starting with post 902.

I’m having trouble finding that thread. Is there an easy way to navigate/find the list of all the older threads? I know that only some of the recent threads are listed in the opening posts. I’m trying google and not having luck with searching “Websleuths Abby Libby thread #44”, tia.

—-
Eta2:
Found it:
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #44

“Libby is described as standing 5'4" tall with a heavy build. She has blonde shoulder-length hair and blue eyes. She was last seen wearing a tie-dyed shirt with fringe at the bottom, gray sweat pants with unknown black lettering and black Nike shoes.”
MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

It seems posts in the discussion linked above in thread #44 indicate the shoe(s) found later under the bridge was blue and not significant to the case. Still looking for exact confirmation on that.

 

[Jax49]

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...s-scanner-thread.333467/page-10#post-13299892

Can not be discussed here but above is a link to an interesting area of the scanner thread, imho.