Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #98

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the more I think about it I think he must have had a gun........he wouldn't say "guys..down the hill" while he had a knife to Abby's neck.....because he already had her under control....

a gun can obtain immediate attention and obediance....

so I think he at first brandished a gun.....told them not to scream or he would shoot them.....at that point, they were probably cooperative....
 
You said:


"He is probably way less mature than his biological age. Probably a teenager in an adult body, and lots of these questions are the norm for teenagers."

I say:

Oh, I am sure his emotional age was that of a teenager whether it's due to hard-wiring, sexual abuse, whatever. I think it's fair to say that many people outgrow their religious upbringing once they mature, and start to question the purpose of their very existence. I do believe this person still fears that there's still possibility of some time of judgement by a higher power. And, they are certainly things that crop up during adolescence, but left unresolved for 20 years (As I think this offender in 30 something).... Well, something has to give. And, I don't think this person had many outlets for their sexual urges. And for a long time. Using a prostitute was too dirty and wicked


I believe that him being religious or not is unimportant. He probably is, so what? It is all superficial. Morality he does not understand.

I don’t think he was abused. But I would not bet on it, either way. What I feel is that emotionally, he is stuck in the age when he started having erotic dreams, and he never progressed further. He may be “developing his dream world”, but this is all.

BTW - good idea about the help of prostitutes and his fear of it. But, nothing could prevent a “good boy” from watching *advertiser censored*, I bet he did it, secretly, for years, grew up with it, and hence the idea of bondage, or whatever he was sold on. Don’t quite know what it was, but since he was running around with rope-like junk in pockets, probably, this.

You said:

Re: torture instruments.


I say:

I don't agree. I don't think these were "torture" instruments -- though they were certainly for sinister intentions. They were instruments designed to subdue and sexually assault someone, tamper with the crime scene, and clean themselves up enough to emerge from the woods without blood spatter. I think the offender planned this to be a sexual assault, blitz attacking an unsuspecting person -- like a jogger/hiker -- before they could see his face. But, understood the very (sick) possibility that he may have to escalate his crimes if he was identified, or things didn't go as planned. I do not believe the girls were tortured. I would guess there may have been postmortem mutilation, but it was more a desire to disguise the true motives for the crime. I believe these were soft kills.
in my world, subdue and sexually assault an unwilling, unsuspecting person, is torture. She would have ended with PTSD for the rest of her life.


You said:


I also have the feeling that he was daydreaming about a sadistic, erotic, encounter, for many years. Maybe since high-Middle school. What people in the town he used to live in might remember would be some anonymous letters mentioning some torture elements ("a rope. A lighter. A knife" - just as an example). Or possibly, he shared these dreams with peers. Anyhow, people wrote it off as part of him being "odd", but they may remember it now.

I say:


I don't think so. I think his erotic fantasies were consensual until his 20s. Likely with women who politely smiled at him, or, female friends he could never strike up the nerve to ask out. But, years of sexual frustration stewed into an immense dislike of women. Women didn't really reject him --- but, he ones perceived as such, when in reality he never pursued them. And, I don't think he shared such details beyond expressing his disdain for women. This person will never confess on his own... unless to spare his life.... not sure if Indiana has the DP?!? I don't think he's told a soul about the killing, but obviously he is following them. He might spontaneously bring up the case -- around his few friends, over a beer, but not much beyond that. My 2 cents.

I think that he had very secret, deep, imaginary world, and it was not static, but developing, and eventually grew outside, so to say.

I would also surmise that at times when he had relationships/got married, m.b.?/ was somehow distracted, his fantasies would stop. Not quite unlike Green River Killer, who’d stop killing for years, while being married, and would resume after divorces.

So with this guy, a relationship would pull him away from his fantasy world. If the relationship fell through, the obsessions would come back with the vengeance.

Later. I don’t know what his job is. I could bet that he dreamed of the role of a helper with a certain degree of control. There are many such professions. At this, approaching people, making the first step, would be difficult for him, and perhaps it played some role in whatever happened, odd approach that scared the girls, not sure.

Now, about organized/disorganized killers. Honestly, we don’t know how our famed “organized” killers started. About Ted Bundy and Green River Killer, there were suspicions that they both made their first kill around 13, and it was not of an organized way.

It might have been so that the BG planned one thing, but enjoyed what happened so much that he’d eventually repeat it.

ETA: whatever he planned, he ended up with killing two teenage girls and getting on with his life. No conscience. No remorse. So, this...
 
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Question, what do you guys think the reason is for this (property) change on the beacon schneider corp application:

Beacon - Carroll County, IN

I took the first screenshot as property reference not long after the murder. Sometime last year - I think - it was changed to designate an area between the RL properties and the properties across (app CS in blue frame) . When you click it it says "No information is available":
All three of RL's parcels that went to the creek had to be subdivided and then those sub-divided parts close to the creek had to be consolidated to a single parcel. I suspect for liability purposes as RL wouldn't want the burden of people potentially getting hurt on his land since there are numerous instances of trespassers. Whoever owns it may have more ability when it comes to liability or dealing with trespassers - so perhaps, the county or the State of Indiana. I don't know what the law in Indiana says with respect to property records to know whether or not property records can be shielded like that.

It may be possible to find court records related to it online though I don't know if a search for RL would yield that information or some kind of other case type search might show it.

Of course it is possible that property now belongs to one of or both of the families.
 
I do not know if this has been discussed before, but obviously Libby got pictures, audio, a video? of this guy. I am wondering why she didn't call 911...

you've gotten good replies to this but i just also want to add that last week [haven't been on since then due to being out of town + general life business] a few of us were discussing the possibility that perp is a schoolmate or some kind of acquaintance of the girls. So one thought i have is that Libby could've taken the pictures because they maybe recognized him and maybe he was wearing a disguise. Taking his picture could've been more of 'this is odd' and maybe they'd show their friends/sister/etc. later and be like 'hey i think so and so might've been on the bridge and doesn't it look like he was wearing a disguise?' rather than thinking they were in immediate danger.

Along those same lines, JaneEyre also brings up a good point about overreacting. Whether or not they thought they recognized the guy, it can often be difficult to assess whether a call to 911 is necessary. As a woman in my 30s i honestly don't think i'd call the police simply because someone looked odd or didn't seem quite right but they hadn't actually interacted with me in any way. If It takes a little bit for the police to arrive and the guy could be gone by then, so the police are there and you're talking to them like geez i guess i was being paranoid and i'm so sorry to have wasted your time i'm really embarrassed...

You pose an excellent question and hindsight being 20/20 we all wish she could've called, of course. But i totally understand how a 13 year old girl probably thought, until it was too late, that calling wasn't necessary.
 
so what I'm wondering is, does his way of saying "guys", "down", and "hill" sound midwestern? or is there something different about it?

I tend to think the interest in the audio is the difference in vocal range for the word "guys" and that it ends with a higher intonation and the lower range for "down the hill" that ends with a low intonation. But how is that significant?
We say "guys" all the time. It isn't gender, age or species specific. We will even say "guys" to a group of dogs or any other animal, lol
 
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I just do not think that even a "disorganized" killer would try to commit a serious strenuous outdoor crime, wearing a toupee. They fall off. They shed hair.
Just weird. But maybe he had really good glue and I am not thinking correctly.
I agree with you; no toupee. The new sketch depicts someone with unruly hair perhaps controlled with a hairnet. I disagree with a hairnet. Seems he was using a combination of a cap with a hoodie over top.
 
Thank you! Oh, I see it now! I like your line of thinking...

I also posted #631 which kind of adds to my OP. Charlot123 disagreed with some of my original points in #642 and I really enjoyed her feedback.

I crudely did a copy and paste as I didn't quote properly, offering my rebuttal in #683. You probably read it, but just saying...

Dear @ejtheintj,

I agree that it's the discussion and the respectful feedback that is so refreshing. That's where I see others' perspectives on all of the aspects that we know of in this case.

It's so important to me, as it is to everyone, to be able to see each others' perspectives. To see others' views helps me understand different ways to look at cases.

Thank you for sharing your observations and thoughts, especially numbering the subject points. Makes for great discussion!

Really appreciate your posts!
 
I thought from the way A and L referred to "the creepy guy" that they might have seen him earlier and while they thought he was "creepy," they did not have any bad experience, so they initially dismissed him as an actual threat. IMO.

In more recent times, I think there's a possibility he changed his appearance some between when he passed the girls on the trail, and when he put the wheels in motion to go after them.

JMO
 
Question, what do you guys think the reason is for this (property) change on the beacon schneider corp application:

Beacon - Carroll County, IN

I took the first screenshot as property reference not long after the murder. Sometime last year - I think - it was changed to designate an area between the RL properties and the properties across (app CS in blue frame) . When you click it it says "No information is available":
The County has came into possession of that property for some future project/reason, with that money they have gathered for the restoration of that Bridge and area ?....moo
 
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I had a situation where a person jumped up off the ground in the dark where I was parking my car and began screaming (unearthly) and rushing toward me. It was sudden and totally unexpected. I managed to quickly reverse my car into the street but once there my hands were shaking so bad it took me well over a minute to be able to dial 911 as this crazy person stood in the parking lot staring at me.

oh that's terrifying. was this before smartphones? i do hope you have Siri or some sort of voice activated system on your phone so if you are shaking too badly to dial you can just say 'call 911'
 
Women have a habit of not wanting to overreact. For years, talk shows and books have tried to reprogram us to listen to alarm bells going off in our heads. So if women are hesitant to be seen as overreacting, to take our own gut feelings seriously after all we know of this world, how much more hesitant would a teenager be? I believe this is part of the answer.

Bingo. When I told my husband about a weirdo I thought was following me from the store to the parking lot, he asked me why I didn't call 911. I KNOW why...I didn't want to "overreact" and be wrong and embarrass myself as well as the guy! I have always thought that way...too nice and don't want anyone to feel bad!
 
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so what I'm wondering is, does his way of saying "guys", "down", and "hill" sound midwestern? or is there something different about it?

I tend to think the interest in the audio is the difference in vocal range for the word "guys" and that it ends with a higher intonation and the lower range for "down the hill" that ends with a low intonation. But how is that significant?

Its significant to someone who knows him and recognizes his voice.....
 
DISCLAIMER: First time poster here, in fact, I made profile just so I could my amateur opinion. Many of the things I say will read as common sense, or, a culmination of other things I've read, heard, or listened to that resonated with me. So, please do not thing in any way that I am passing my thoughts off as my own, or, rehashing things that may have been stated 2 years ago. I had to sift thru numerous closed threads that I really would've liked to have read in their entirety, but, alas, I am here to add my own thoughts.

1. ) The fact that is offender is, or, was a local should go without saying. I grew up in New England, and while there were indeed picturesque covered bridges visible from the main roads, some hidden gems would only be known by, or easily accessible to seasoned locals, even with the advent of the GPS. I have no doubt that this offender spent a minimum of 30-40 hours walking these very same trails as a child themselves. I, myself, would feel uncomfortable in such a secluded place, and, if I came across that bridge - I would've been unlikely to feel comfortable crossing it. Even if I saw someone 2x my weight lumbering across it. Also, from what I can see, the trails end upon crossing the bridge, and, upon crossing the creek, seem to encroach upon private property. I may very well be wrong, but again, I am just coming up to speed/

2.) This is not a criminal mastermind. At all. I agree with @MassGuy that this is someone who was extremely lucky to pull off such a high risk offense in broad daylight.

3.) I do not believe this is a sociopath/psychopath, or likely to commit a heinous crime like this again. I think this a god-fearing person with a conscience, and is well aware of right and wrong from a biblical and legal standpoint.
How such a person descended into committing such a horrible crime is beyond comprehension.

4.) I do not this person would be described as charming, and, likely is incredibly social awkward around women his own age. In fact, I would venture a guess that this person has had limited, or, no, successful relationships with women. In fact, I would take a guess that this person has likely questioned their own sexuality, and, repressed their own desires in an feeble attempt to satisfy social norms more closely aligned to that which was taught int he bible.

5.) I would guess this person may be described as a bit of introverted, bordering on a loner -- but, does indeed have friends, family, and acquaintances -- but are unable to form close relationships with anyone in their age group, or express what is truly eating away at them.

6.) I suspect this person has deep-seeded body image issues, and, likely rejects themselves from men/women their own age, due to a perceived flaw that is likely not even noticeable. I think they're unable to express themselves and feel overly helpless, unlovable, and, destined to be miserable.

7.) I think this person certainly has ties to the community, and, could've been a former alter boy, eagle scout, an all american midwestern kid. I would guess that women, however, have found themselves uncomfortable around this individual, but few could put their finger on why.

8.) I think this person went to the bridg with added layers to conceal suspicious instruments, and, so they didn't emerge from the woods with blood spatter. I would guess they probably washed up in the creek. It doesn't strike me an organized offender, though some elements seem meticulously planned. I would guess he had binding instruments, some kind of chemical, like bleach, for instance, and a weapon. I think he ideally wanted a single, slightly older victim. And, wanted to do a blitz style attack before they saw his face, but, was prepared to kill if this was required during the commission of the crime.

9.) I don't think he had any direct contact with either victim, and the poor girls were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. I suspect they might've even encountered him once, or, more, from the parking, or along the trail, and they clearly felt unnerved. They might've politely said hi -- perhaps the offender was even attractive to them -- but I guess he just looked at them, and said little or nothing. This is NOT a charming individual able to lure unsuspecting victims with the ease of his voice and manner.

10.) I agree with a previous poster (quoting an FBI profiler) that the offender likely went off the beaten path, likely knew nobody was near the stream, and, once the girls crossed the bridge he had them hemmed in. He knew it was extremely unlikely that anyone would be coming from either flank, and, as I've studied the map it does appear this is kind of no man's land. No loop, basically a dead end unless you trespass. Someone kindly correct me if I'm dead wrong.

11.) I would guess the offender is mid 30s, and, clearly had some inkling that today there was no school and would be fertile for hunting. Unemployed? Perhaps.

12.) I am guessing he flashed a badge and/or weapon, and used some plea to authority, knowing that his added life experience wouldn't make it super challenging to overpower, or, trick the girls into a very dangerous situation. I am guessing it was something like:

"Guys, This bridge is very unsafe and you shouldn't have walked across it. Down the hill."

"Guys, I saw you litter. Down the hill to pick it up."

"Guys, this is my private property... Down the hill and "

Some type of authority as an adult, and, to make them feel like THEY did something wrong, when the reality was it was the other way around.

13.) I am guessing he posed the bodies, perhaps in a provactive position, as if they were sinner, like something out of leviticus. But, that was just to disguise the true motive of the crime, a successful or unsuccessful sexual assult, meant to confirm/deny his own sexuality.

14.) I suspect he identified the smaller of the two as most likely to be faster than her friend, and tried to subdue her first. But, he also knew they were too scared to move, and unlikely to leave each other.


Sorry if this was all pretty heavy, but it is my opinion. I could be dead wrong on ALL points, but, it's just a culmination of all that I heard, and, what my intuition tells me. I hope they catch this soon!


Let me try this again. Earlier I managed to include my response in the quote.

I agree with your thinking across the board. I just skew the perpetrator a bit younger as well as his intended victim. Possibly because I think he is still trying to gain a parents approval. I figure most adults realize their parents are human and flawed by their 30’s and get into therapy .
Since my “perp” is younger and dealing with early adult issues. I think his victim is too.
JMO
 
Bingo. When I told my husband about a weirdo I thought was following me from the store to the parking lot, he asked me why I didn't call 911. I KNOW why...I didn't want to "overreact" and be wrong and embarrass myself as well as the guy! I have always thought that way...to nice and don't want anyone to feel bad!
I hope someday there will be a whole generation of girls who do not think like this, like so many of us do, who will not question their gut instincts and will worry more about their own safety than being embarrassed or hurting others’ feelings.
 
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