Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[MassGuy]

Could he have been temporarily staying in this abandoned building for shelter perhaps? Then left immediately after the murders in his vehicle? I wish there was more local info about this now demolished (how convenient for him ) building.

I don’t think so. I think he parked there because he believed it would have made him less conspicuous, than had he parked elsewhere.

 

[Wells]

LE have said sketch #1 and #2 are two different men. So are you suggesting it only occurred to LE a couple of weeks ago that FSG saw BG? I’m sorry but I’m having trouble understanding how something as significant as a witness who saw someone very close to the crime scene would be overlooked by LE for more than two years.

I really have no idea how you would infer that from what I said. I'm going to p.m. you just so we don't clog up this thread.

 

[Cryptic]

I knew of unlawful or deviant actions by some adults and older kids that most responsible adults think no child should be exposed to – but of course they are, all the time. Illicit relationships, adults grooming children, drug deals, property crimes... .

So I wonder if Abby and Libby had stumbled upon an illegal or supremely embarrassing situation related to BG, regardless of whether they understood it – and if that is the answer to "why them?" as well as "why?"

I like this possibility.

Deviant actions by adults as a motive would seem to have two motive possibilities in harming the victims:

A. Fear of suffering legal concequences for the deviant action (if there are any)
B. Fear of shame, humiliation, or social sanction if the deviant action is exposed.

Some deviant actions might have "A" and "B" possibilities. In either case, fear of "B" can be, as you stated, very powerful depending on the deviant and the action.

I think a challenge for law enforcement would be attempting to track down this motive. Unlike say, physical descriptions of the perpetrator, DNA, or even a direct motive, a "knows about something pertaining to a third party" motive can be buried deep and stem from a variety of contacts, both direct and even indirect.

 

[ilovechili]

I don't think a gun was used as the murder weapon. You don't need to shoot off a gun, though, to intimidate someone with one.

I do not either think it was the murder weapon. I also tend toward the thought he likely had a gun, just simply saying we do not know so I see others' opinions or thoughts on what he had and how he got control as well. Imo he had a gun and a knife at minimum and possibly rope. A coward needs to feel armed.

Jmo.

 

[gitana1]

Not necessarily this post, a previous one of yours.
What you're asking for is a list of people involved and their relationship, such as parent, grandparents, siblings, etc with corresponding initials? And also a fact based list of times such as drop off, pictures taken, calls made, etc? Just making sure I'm understanding you.
Jillian

I mean like a list of key players. Witnesses. People present that day. The BG. Then the possible sightings of each - time and location if known.

@Wells has been doing that on a map we've been looking at recently. I think it's from a website. It's very helpful to me but I think she or he is seeking info to fill in the blanks and links to official info so we can make sure it's accurate?

But once I figure out direction on the map (lol) I can probably figure it out from a list!

 

[gitana1]

Girls dropped off between 1:15 and 1:45 at Monon Trailhead Parking (I believe there is dispute in MSM between LE and family on the exact time)

Snapchat Photo at 2:07.

Video of BG begins around 2:17 (MOO).

FSG on Freedom Bridge at 2:35.

FSG sees BG on trail at 2:47 (still working on MSM verification)

CE on South end of Bridge @ 2:49. Said she saw a guy and a couple.

Libby's Dad Derrick arrives at Monon Trailhead Parking at 3:15 approximately.

Libby's Dad Derrick talks with FSG at 3:15 approximately who tells him he saw a couple.

Additionally: a teenager or a group of teenagers on the trail, the woman who helped created OBG sketch on or near the trail and Man in Black

This is really good. Questions. (Sorry).

So the south end (please don't kill me guys!) is the one closest to the Mears' farm or the other side? On your map it looks to be the other end, where the map starts to end, away from the farm and closer to where the creek looks wider.

 

[MizStery]

DBM

 

[MistyWaters]

Girls dropped off between 1:15 and 1:45 at Monon Trailhead Parking (I believe there is dispute in MSM between LE and family on the exact time)

Snapchat Photo at 2:07.

Video of BG begins around 2:17 (MOO).

FSG on Freedom Bridge at 2:35.

FSG sees BG on trail at 2:47 (still working on MSM verification)

CE on South end of Bridge @ 2:49. Said she saw a guy and a couple.

Libby's Dad Derrick arrives at Monon Trailhead Parking at 3:15 approximately.

Libby's Dad Derrick talks with FSG at 3:15 approximately who tells him he saw a couple.

Additionally: a teenager or a group of teenagers on the trail, the woman who helped created OBG sketch on or near the trail and Man in Black

We don’t know what time DG spoke to FSG but why do you think it was in the parking lot?

 

[elmomom]

Im still not clear on the meaning intended by 'couple'. There are indeed two involvements of 'couple(s) imo iirc.

My reading is that Fl Sh G replied to DG that he hadnt seen the two girls in question but he'd seen a couple (of girls)under the bridge. ( sourced from the JM intvw with MP and BP but very much moo on intonation and interpretation)

The other couple was referred to by the woman who took the pictures at the bridge a short time after the girls/bg were there. (Moo) who stated ,along with other things, that she had seen a couple at the bridge (At or on not under...iirc moo)

How incorrect am I to hold this stance?

I keep seeing people wanting to believe that the “couple” that was seen may have been either a couple of two girls, or one of the girls and CCC. I really think these speculations are a little outlandish. When you are searching for two girls and you ask someone if they saw them, if they say, no, BUT I saw/heard a couple - I think the only way to interpret this use of couple is as a male female couple.
Likewise, I think if there was any chance that the “couple arguing under the bridge” was one/both of the girls and CCC, this would have been fleshed out by LE long ago and we would know that.
JMO.

 

[tresir2012]

Falling Down...there is a video from the 15th on youtube titled "delphi girls murdered" its 3 min 8 second long at the 2 min 36 second mark there is a pick of the location with many many police vehicles there. The video is from the 15th but who knows when the TV station shot that video. It could have been from earlier on the 14th

There appears to be a sort of commercial vehicle parked in the parking lot sideways. It doesn't look like an LE vehicle. Can you somehow post this video.

thanks

It looks like LE crime scene vehicles and I see the vehicle you mention like a large dark coloured truck of some sort.. I wasn't sure if Falling Down had posted this already so have posted it because I just read your post and viewed it myself. I will also put it in the media thread if it is not there already. It is a 13 WTHR media clip.

 

[MassGuy]

I like this possibility.

Deviant actions by adults as a motive would seem to have two motive possibilities in harming the victims:

A. Fear of suffering legal concequences for the deviant action (if there are any)
B. Fear of shame, humiliation, or social sanction if the deviant action is exposed.

Some deviant actions might have "A" and "B" possibilities. In either case, fear of "B" can be very powerful depending on the deviant and the action.

There’s a few problems with this.

The first is that there is no known connection between BG and the victims.

Even if they saw something, they probably couldn’t name him.

The girls apparently never made mention of this on the recording, although they did talk about a man they saw.

Again, the fact that they didn’t identify him, points to the man being a stranger.

Law enforcement believes that this crime was about “power and control.”

That seems to also exclude some sort of alternate motive that involves covering up another crime.

This guy clearly had a way to control his victims, and that indicates he came prepared to commit an act of rape or murder.

It’s also likely that he used a weapon to kill them (again, preparation).

I think this looks like a sexually motivated double homicide, as opposed to a double murder committed for other reasons.

 

[Wells]

We don’t know what time DG spoke to FSG but why do you think it was in the parking lot?

As I have stated previously, it's mentioned in the Dr. Phil interview I believe what time specifically DG got to the trail and spoke with FSG who was "coming off the trail."

 

[peel]

it states that Derrick ran into a guy - doesn't even describe the guy as wearing a flannel shirt[/QUOTE]
was the guy that Derrick saw ever identified?......was he for sure the FSG?.....

 

[Wells]

it states that Derrick ran into a guy - doesn't even describe the guy as wearing a flannel shirt

was the guy that Derrick saw ever identified?......was he for sure the FSG?.....[/QUOTE]
This is answered above (this same thread) in a GH video. Yes, FSG is the gentleman Derrick spoke with.

 

[ocgrad]

I'm dense. Sorry. So "the other end" is the south end and that is closer to the Mears farm than the north side?

TIA.

No.
The north end of the bridge is at the end of the walking trail, that leads from the access point where the girls were dropped off and where Libby's dad DG parked to pick them up. The property adjacent and across the road is the Mears. When you cross the bridge you end up on the south end, across the creek. There is a home there, and back across the creek the nearest properties are the cemetery and Logan.
The first picture is what the trail looked like at that access, you can see part of the Mears place across 300N.
The second picture is the trail. To the right there is a nature trail that goes down to the creek. The larger straight trail goes to the Monon High Bridge. Behind the camera the trail goes to the highway and the Freedom bridge.
The third picture, not sure if it helps because it is not oriented right, shows the location of their bodies in relation to Logan's home. But you can see that road that runs under the south end of the bridge and the house near the south end and if you look closely you can also see at the bottom right the edge of the cemetery. Also you can detect a gravel bar in the creek, although those things move around some.
The next picture shows that scene from the hill above it. You can see the vastness of the woods, the crime scene tape, and Logan's little doggie.
Last is a property screenshot, Logan's is red and yellow. You can see 300N and in the very far upper left corner you can make out the trail that comes from the gate where they were dropped off that accesses the walking trail in blue. Not sure if you can tell, but as soon as you walk onto the bridge you are going over the creek, but then the bridge stays elevated over that area, an old floodplain I guess, and at the south end it goes over a road marked as 625W.

 

[gitana1]

I'm playing catch up, so this may have already been discussed. It looks like the confusion is the orientation of that map. South is at the top, not the bottom. HTH's.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/2019-05-08_131620-png.183244/

Oh wait! Is the part of the map you are linking to flipped from this one? In other words, different directions totally?

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...-11e5-97fd-93362d1a84af/5679c07137e25.pdf.pdf

I don't think this because cemetery is on the same side of the page, but in yours the cemetery is at one end of the bridge but in the one I've linked it appears closer to the other.

 

[x_files]

not even the mom & dad ??
I don't think the newsletter is suspect either but odd ... yeah it's odd to me

Why was the newsletter addressed to Mom & Dad, and signed PEACE with no name? That's odd.

 

[x_files]

That's in all the newsletters. Yeah, it's weird, but not atypical for that particular church newsletter.

Who is Dear Mom & Dad? I find it odd way to write a Church Newsletter.

 

[peel]

AKA "plaid shirt" as referred to in GH video Derrick's path. DG saw FSG and asked him if he had seen two girls. Link to GH channel is in first post of every thread.

Has FSG confirmed that he talked with DG?

 

[gitana1]

No.
The north end of the bridge is at the end of the walking trail, that leads from the access point where the girls were dropped off and where Libby's dad DG parked to pick them up. The property adjacent and across the road is the Mears. When you cross the bridge you end up on the south end, across the creek. There is a home there, and back across the creek the nearest properties are the cemetery and Logan.
The first picture is what the trail looked like at that access, you can see part of the Mears place across 300N.
The second picture is the trail. To the right there is a nature trail that goes down to the creek. The larger straight trail goes to the Monon High Bridge. Behind the camera the trail goes to the highway and the Freedom bridge.
The third picture, not sure if it helps because it is not oriented right, shows the location of their bodies in relation to Logan's home. But you can see that road that runs under the south end of the bridge and the house near the south end and if you look closely you can also see at the bottom right the edge of the cemetery. Also you can detect a gravel bar in the creek, although those things move around some.
The next picture shows that scene from the hill above it. You can see the vastness of the woods, the crime scene tape, and Logan's little doggie.
Last is a property screenshot, Logan's is red and yellow. You can see 300N and in the very far upper left corner you can make out the trail that comes from the gate where they were dropped off that accesses the walking trail in blue. Not sure if you can tell, but as soon as you walk onto the bridge you are going over the creek, but then the bridge stays elevated over that area, an old floodplain I guess, and at the south end it goes over a road marked as 625W.

Gosh I'm really dense. It's not penetrating. I can't make heads or tails of the google maps. The one linked here I get. But I don't know where the key points would be on it.

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...-11e5-97fd-93362d1a84af/5679c07137e25.pdf.pdf

I'm going to stop bugging you all. Everyone is trying so hard to help me but I'm not getting it!!

 

[FinePrint]

Thank you so much. The problem for me is time. I just need a cheat sheet with actual times and names/identities and locations in a list. GH assumes everyone knows who he's talking about. I never knew Libby's dad's first name for example. And it's just too long for me!

If I have to watch for videos to figure out some basics I'm going to get lost because typically I'm working, jump on here for a bit, and rush back to working.

I bet a cheat sheet like that- just a list with times, makes and locations if known, would help people like me!!

I hear you! I’m doing the same, working, running a business and jumping back in to catch up and try to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way.

A cheat sheet would be great if someone has the time to make one....

 

[MistyWaters]

As I have stated previously, it's mentioned in the Dr. Phil interview I believe what time specifically DG got to the trail and spoke with FSG who was "coming off the trail."

None of this is new information. The Dr Phil show when the family members appeared along with Carter was aired in Dec/17 therefore LE was aware of the sighting long ago as well. BPs response was explained as the reason DG didn’t walk along the bridge to look for the girls. I’m not sure where the flannel shirt came from because I don’t recall that she offered a description. She also didn’t insinuate the person to be suspicious whatsoever but looking back at thread #76, she did mention a lot of people were out on the trails that particular day. For all we know DG knew the person and everybody he saw has also been cleared.

And if LE knew with certainly who sighted the murderer right from the beginning, it doesn’t explain why LE is only now proceeding in “new direction” with a new sketch of a different suspect, only announced a couple of weeks ago.