Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams & Liberty (Libby) German - The Delphi Murders - #149

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carbuff said:
Yeah, I was with you on that date being likely, but I never saw a likely crime to match.

I'm starting to have my doubts whether the killer is still alive--and I don't mean RL. Some unknown dude who died with his deeds still hidden.
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Curiously, I wonder if that may have been a suspicion by LE as well. Especially seeing how they made that type of announcement on that particular day.
IDRK if they felt the same as us, but it is quite intriguing on many fronts, imo.
 
well the only thing that happened lately was the sheriff candidate debate in which
one of them ( liggett .. we are supposed to understand is the ONLY one working on the case ?
it looks pretty bad anyway you want to look at it...a political game
 
carbuff said:
Yeah, I was with you on that date being likely, but I never saw a likely crime to match.

I'm starting to have my doubts whether the killer is still alive--and I don't mean RL. Some unknown dude who died with his deeds still hidden.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't be the first time. LE was searching for a serial killer who killed in SC and MO and committed a rape of a minor in TN and LE had been searching for years. The SK they were seeking for about 10 years was Robert Brashears and he died of a self-inflicted gunshot in a shoot out with LE years before they had isolated his DNA. He died in 1999 and LE didn't positively ID him till 2018.

I would think someone who leads that type of life has a greater chance of dying early. Who knows, maybe this guy attempted to abduct a minor in another state since 2017 and ended up with a bullet instead. If LE knew about it I would think his DNA would give a hit in CODIS. If LE even checked CODIS. And if his shooter reported it.
 
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rebelchild said:
fox59.com

Sheriff’s deputy claims demotion over Delphi murders investigation

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victi…
fox59.com fox59.com
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So Robert Ives thought there were certain experts that he felt were needed and the team didn't bring them onboard. Interesting. We have between 100 and 200 personnel in the early weeks of the investigation and yet the prosecutor believed something was STILL missing. It makes one wonder. Especially in light of the fact that the guy recently thrust into the spotlight was visited by LE shortly after the murders and let go. Now is Ives, who is not a trained investigator, getting outside his area of expertise? Or did he see something that was obvious to him from his years of experience as a prosecutor? I wonder if the missing expertise was someone who worked in social media, catfishing and CSAM?

This doesn't look good for the 'team' working on this case.
 
carbuff said:
*long slow whistle*
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Wow. This is a good article to read between the lines, imo, to get a more accurate view of what has and is going on behind closed doors.
JnRyan said:
So Robert Ives thought there were certain experts that he felt were needed and the team didn't bring them onboard. Interesting. We have between 100 and 200 personnel in the early weeks of the investigation and yet the prosecutor believed something was STILL missing. It makes one wonder. Especially in light of the fact that the guy recently thrust into the spotlight was visited by LE shortly after the murders and let go. Now is Ives, who is not a trained investigator, getting outside his area of expertise? Or did he see something that was obvious to him from his years of experience as a prosecutor? I wonder if the missing expertise was someone who worked in social media, catfishing and CSAM?

This doesn't look good for the 'team' working on this case.
Click to expand...
BBM. Good point.
I wonder if the missing expertise was someone who specialized in serial killers, who preyed on children via catfishing and social media outlets, grooming and luring them away from their homes.
 
JnRyan said:
So Robert Ives thought there were certain experts that he felt were needed and the team didn't bring them onboard. Interesting. We have between 100 and 200 personnel in the early weeks of the investigation and yet the prosecutor believed something was STILL missing. It makes one wonder. Especially in light of the fact that the guy recently thrust into the spotlight was visited by LE shortly after the murders and let go. Now is Ives, who is not a trained investigator, getting outside his area of expertise? Or did he see something that was obvious to him from his years of experience as a prosecutor? I wonder if the missing expertise was someone who worked in social media, catfishing and CSAM?

This doesn't look good for the 'team' working on this case.
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The retirement of R. Ives - something to do with it perhaps?
 
FromGermany1 said:
Not available, but :oops: re, what I can read here (first sentence).
Click to expand...

A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victim of political retaliation for his unsuccessful attempt to campaign in next month’s general election.

In the lawsuit, Deputy Michael Thomas cites his involvement in the early days of the Delphi murders investigation as the beginning of the end of his relationship with his boss.

.....

“Upon Thomas’s information and belief, Leazenby and others in the CCSO did not approve of Thomas running for office, in part because Thomas had made suggestions and offered assistance in the investigation of a high-profile child homicide investigation, which was overruled and which Leazenby and others in the CSCO feared would become publicized as a result of the campaign and/or Thomas’s potential election.”

....

“I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

”I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.”

....


”Three days after the election, I was demoted back down to the road,” said Thomas. ”I was pulled into the sheriff’s office and he spoke to me about it and handed me a letter about it and basically said, ‘Due to recent events, I’m taking you back down to patrol level.’”

Thomas said Leazenby replaced him as Chief Deputy with Detective Tony Liggett, his choice to become the next sheriff, who was the CCSO lead investigator on the Delphi case.

”I feel like it was due to my debates that we’ve had and being outspoken about transparency in the department and so forth,” said Thomas, analyzing why he thinks he ended up on the sheriff’s wrong side. “In those actions, I believe he didn’t like what I had to say.
 
At least in Virginia, a candidate for sheriff is not expected to retain his job if he runs against his boss or an adversarial in power.. Very common over here.

Otherwise, in general, Some suggestions are good ideas. Others are bad ones. So what if the guy's suggestion was to bring in a Psychic? (insert eyeroll)

If the department said No to the idea, then that's understandable and that's what they get paid to do because they are responsible for the case.

The leaders of the investigation need to listen to new ideas but have to make a judgment... can't do every idea...nor do you want to do all of them.. it can dilute the investigation critical path. Imagine that if all of the ideas on this thread here were having to be followed up on???!!! What a freaking mess the investigation would be with no clear roadmap. Would be a disaster.

Just my 2 cents worth. I've seen many a bad idea.
 
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JnRyan said:
So Robert Ives thought there were certain experts that he felt were needed and the team didn't bring them onboard. Interesting. We have between 100 and 200 personnel in the early weeks of the investigation and yet the prosecutor believed something was STILL missing. It makes one wonder. Especially in light of the fact that the guy recently thrust into the spotlight was visited by LE shortly after the murders and let go. Now is Ives, who is not a trained investigator, getting outside his area of expertise? Or did he see something that was obvious to him from his years of experience as a prosecutor? I wonder if the missing expertise was someone who worked in social media, catfishing and CSAM?

This doesn't look good for the 'team' working on this case.
Click to expand...
Painfully true, my friend. And it strikes me that many aspects of the investigation don't look good, at least to outsiders (such as me) who don't know the whole picture. I've always tried not to be harsh about the conduct of the investigation--the cops who had jurisdiction had a nightmarish case that was far over their heads, and they had ISP, FBI, and other agencies there trying to help. It was a lousy situation for the local lawn forcement people, no doubt about it.

But this very interesting article--in which a serving deputy criticizes his department's choices and conduct of the investigation--reminds me that SOME criticism of the LE investigation is undeniably valid. It reminds me of a guy I worked with years ago; he was a Vietnam veteran, and occasionally when a situation at work got way out of hand, he'd look disgusted and yell "Charlie Fox! Charlie Fox!" (PM me if you need a translation.) I still have sympathy for the cops caught in the situation, but it sure looks like they had something of a Charlie Fox investigation in Delphi in 2017, doesn't it? :-(
 
AC4RD said:
Painfully true, my friend. And it strikes me that many aspects of the investigation don't look good, at least to outsiders (such as me) who don't know the whole picture. I've always tried not to be harsh about the conduct of the investigation--the cops who had jurisdiction had a nightmarish case that was far over their heads, and they had ISP, FBI, and other agencies there trying to help. It was a lousy situation for the local lawn forcement people, no doubt about it.

But this very interesting article--in which a serving deputy criticizes his department's choices and conduct of the investigation--reminds me that SOME criticism of the LE investigation is undeniably valid. It reminds me of a guy I worked with years ago; he was a Vietnam veteran, and occasionally when a situation at work got way out of hand, he'd look disgusted and yell "Charlie Fox! Charlie Fox!" (PM me if you need a translation.) I still have sympathy for the cops caught in the situation, but it sure looks like they had something of a Charlie Fox investigation in Delphi in 2017, doesn't it? :-(
Click to expand...
Yeah, I still heard some Marines use "Charlie Foxtrot". Same thing.
 
rebelchild said:
A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victim of political retaliation for his unsuccessful attempt to campaign in next month’s general election.

In the lawsuit, Deputy Michael Thomas cites his involvement in the early days of the Delphi murders investigation as the beginning of the end of his relationship with his boss.

.....

“Upon Thomas’s information and belief, Leazenby and others in the CCSO did not approve of Thomas running for office, in part because Thomas had made suggestions and offered assistance in the investigation of a high-profile child homicide investigation, which was overruled and which Leazenby and others in the CSCO feared would become publicized as a result of the campaign and/or Thomas’s potential election.”

....

“I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

”I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.”

....


”Three days after the election, I was demoted back down to the road,” said Thomas. ”I was pulled into the sheriff’s office and he spoke to me about it and handed me a letter about it and basically said, ‘Due to recent events, I’m taking you back down to patrol level.’”

Thomas said Leazenby replaced him as Chief Deputy with Detective Tony Liggett, his choice to become the next sheriff, who was the CCSO lead investigator on the Delphi case.

”I feel like it was due to my debates that we’ve had and being outspoken about transparency in the department and so forth,” said Thomas, analyzing why he thinks he ended up on the sheriff’s wrong side. “In those actions, I believe he didn’t like what I had to say.
Click to expand...
snipped for focus...."
“I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

”I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.”
REBELCHILD....yep, I dropped the mike when I read that a few days ago. THUD...
Uhm, Anybody notice how many arrests have resulted from the leads/tips and provided electronic evidence to multiple counties: ICAC and NCEMC? NCEMC has been doing the most amazing job! (Oh there is more...but enough to make the point. Outside agencies can provide invaluable electronic evidence.)
Marshal County, Plymouth Jan.28, 2021
Adams County, Decatur Sept. 19, 2022
Morgan County, Paragon Feb. 17, 2022
Clark County, Clarksville Aug. 11, 2021
Clark County, Clarksville Feb. 25, 2021
Scott County, Austin Sept. 3 2022
Michigan City, LaPorte June, 23, 2022
Whilley County, Columbia City Oct. 6, 2022
Morgan County, Mooresville Jan. 13, 2022
Harrison County, DePauw Sept. 20, 2022
Steuben County, Angola Feb. 14, 2022
 
IQuestion said:
snipped for focus...."
“I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

”I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.”
REBELCHILD....yep, I dropped the mike when I read that a few days ago. THUD...
Uhm, Anybody notice how many arrests have resulted from the leads/tips and provided electronic evidence to multiple counties: ICAC and NCEMC? NCEMC has been doing the most amazing job! (Oh there is more...but enough to make the point. Outside agencies can provide invaluable electronic evidence.)
Marshal County, Plymouth Jan.28, 2021
Adams County, Decatur Sept. 19, 2022
Morgan County, Paragon Feb. 17, 2022
Clark County, Clarksville Aug. 11, 2021
Clark County, Clarksville Feb. 25, 2021
Scott County, Austin Sept. 3 2022
Michigan City, LaPorte June, 23, 2022
Whilley County, Columbia City Oct. 6, 2022
Morgan County, Mooresville Jan. 13, 2022
Harrison County, DePauw Sept. 20, 2022
Steuben County, Angola Feb. 14, 2022
Click to expand...
Agree.
Much to be investigated here in terms of Leazenby’s running of the murder investigation and the sheriff’s office.
 
rebelchild said:
A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victim of political retaliation for his unsuccessful attempt to campaign in next month’s general election.

In the lawsuit, Deputy Michael Thomas cites his involvement in the early days of the Delphi murders investigation as the beginning of the end of his relationship with his boss.

.....

“Upon Thomas’s information and belief, Leazenby and others in the CCSO did not approve of Thomas running for office, in part because Thomas had made suggestions and offered assistance in the investigation of a high-profile child homicide investigation, which was overruled and which Leazenby and others in the CSCO feared would become publicized as a result of the campaign and/or Thomas’s potential election.”

....

“I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

”I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.”

....


”Three days after the election, I was demoted back down to the road,” said Thomas. ”I was pulled into the sheriff’s office and he spoke to me about it and handed me a letter about it and basically said, ‘Due to recent events, I’m taking you back down to patrol level.’”

Thomas said Leazenby replaced him as Chief Deputy with Detective Tony Liggett, his choice to become the next sheriff, who was the CCSO lead investigator on the Delphi case.

”I feel like it was due to my debates that we’ve had and being outspoken about transparency in the department and so forth,” said Thomas, analyzing why he thinks he ended up on the sheriff’s wrong side. “In those actions, I believe he didn’t like what I had to say.
Click to expand...
Thank you, rebelchild, for posting!!
 
rebelchild said:
A Carroll County Sheriff’s deputy has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Sheriff Tobias Leazenby and the sheriff’s office claiming that he was the victim of political retaliation for his unsuccessful attempt to campaign in next month’s general election.

In the lawsuit, Deputy Michael Thomas cites his involvement in the early days of the Delphi murders investigation as the beginning of the end of his relationship with his boss.

.....

“Upon Thomas’s information and belief, Leazenby and others in the CCSO did not approve of Thomas running for office, in part because Thomas had made suggestions and offered assistance in the investigation of a high-profile child homicide investigation, which was overruled and which Leazenby and others in the CSCO feared would become publicized as a result of the campaign and/or Thomas’s potential election.”

....

“I do recall discussing with Chief Deputy Mike Thomas the possibility of seeking additional experts in the Delphi case,” Ives wrote. “I thought there were aspects of the investigation that needed experts, that the team had not sought.”

Thomas said his assignment by the prosecutor to seek outside experts was not well received by the leadership of the investigation.

”I feel that since that moment that I had a disagreement with the sheriff about this investigation that it’s went downhill ever since,” he said. ”I just felt like there were certain individuals within the command structure that didn’t want to go in that direction.”

....


”Three days after the election, I was demoted back down to the road,” said Thomas. ”I was pulled into the sheriff’s office and he spoke to me about it and handed me a letter about it and basically said, ‘Due to recent events, I’m taking you back down to patrol level.’”

Thomas said Leazenby replaced him as Chief Deputy with Detective Tony Liggett, his choice to become the next sheriff, who was the CCSO lead investigator on the Delphi case.

”I feel like it was due to my debates that we’ve had and being outspoken about transparency in the department and so forth,” said Thomas, analyzing why he thinks he ended up on the sheriff’s wrong side. “In those actions, I believe he didn’t like what I had to say.
Click to expand...
Cheers!! I couldn't access the article either
 
carbuff said:
*long slow whistle*
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I know, right? I've been pretty critical of this investigation from the beginning. From simple things such as clarity in communication at pressers to holding onto information and being super cryptic and causing confusion, I don't think this was super professionally run. Don't even get me started on that whole two sketches thing. Certainly it seems like expertise in technology early on would've been very useful. Or as @UnapologeticallyAspie said, perhaps in serial killers. But here we sit, many years later, and no arrest in sight.

did this bridge guy just get super lucky, or has he gotten away with it because of a less than optimal investigation? We may never know.

I know many of you are convinced that KAK is the guy. Me, not so much. I hope I'm wrong, I really do, because that would mean we were back at square one.
 
It’s one thing to not seek help, but quite another to refuse it when it is offered.


art19.com

The Delphi Murders: Mike Thomas' Lawsuit Against Carroll County

Mike Thomas, the former chief deputy of the Carroll County Sheriff's Department, has filed a lawsuit against the county, the department, and Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. Here's our original pre-primary interview with Mike Thomas...
art19.com art19.com
 
StarryStarryNight said:
It’s one thing to not seek help, but quite another to refuse it when it is offered.


art19.com

The Delphi Murders: Mike Thomas' Lawsuit Against Carroll County

Mike Thomas, the former chief deputy of the Carroll County Sheriff's Department, has filed a lawsuit against the county, the department, and Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. Here's our original pre-primary interview with Mike Thomas...
art19.com art19.com
Click to expand...
WOW! WOW! THIS is responsible journalism?!?!? At about 12:30, approximately, in the podcast Robert Ives is asked who he suggested as outside assistance. Ives' response is he 'can't comment on that at this time.' (I get that, it may get into testimony in the lawsuit.) BUT a minute or two later one of the podcasters says that Ives said he could not recall the persons he suggested. That is twisting Robert Ives' words as he DID NOT say that in the interview. The only thing Ives cannot recall from the conversation with Thomas is he does recall telling him to discuss it or bring to the sheriff. When asked who he specifically recommended he simply stated he could not comment on it, NOT that he couldn't recall.

Am I the only one who heard this? Did I miss something?
 
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