Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams & Liberty (Libby) German - The Delphi Murders - #149

[cbeagle]

all that happened so far in my books is a possibility of a false confession /kak sending le on wild goose chase with MS apparently confirming NOTHING was found in the river
it seems evansdale murders did go through a false confession but le there knew how to figure it out fast

Could be, though KAK is not some random person confessing to something, he:

- lived around 40 miles from Dephi
- lived at an address which is tied to social media accounts that were in contact with LG, potentially including the day of the murders
- claimed ownership of those social media accounts
- allegedly searched information about a gas station in Delphi on the day of the murders
- had a clear interest in underage girls given his CSAM charges

His confession seems to have resulted in LE spending significant resources on a 4+(?) week search of a river and another search of a backyard.

Now maybe LE is:

- desperate and willing to trust KAK just because of his links to the murders.
- believe in the confession to some extent due to KAK knowing unreleased details (which is how the Evansdale confessions were ruled out, not knowing details)

 

[carbuff]

You know, KAK swore up and down for over five years that he had nothing to do with the Delphi murders. He reiterated that to BMcD in her jailhouse interview back in December when the a_shots stuff first came out. Then, everyone was pointing out what a liar he was, so he must have been lying about his innocence.

Now that he's supposedly cooperating and confessing some sort of involvement, behind closed doors via his lawyer, he's suddenly a liar about his guilt. Which is it?

I understand false confessions and trying to do whatever it takes to make a deal, but I would find it surprising if suddenly KAK had a change of heart and decided to confess to something he wasn't truly involved with, and that LE would even listen to his BS if he couldn't offer them pertinent details which they have withheld from the public for this very reason. Jmo.

I'm sure there are lies interwoven into everything he says, but is he lying about his innocence, or his guilt?

Both, probably. He reminds me of my nephew's first wife. She could lie in different directions in consecutive sentences and I really think that she was so emotionally and psychologically damaged or broken that she didn't have any concept of "truth" as something real. There was what was useful to her and there was what wasn't useful or could get her in trouble, and that was all.

 

[sandy_80]

Could be, though KAK is not some random person confessing to something, he:

- lived around 40 miles from Dephi
- lived at an address which is tied to social media accounts that were in contact with LG, potentially including the day of the murders
- claimed ownership of those social media accounts
- allegedly searched information about a gas station in Delphi on the day of the murders
- had a clear interest in underage girls given his CSAM charges

His confession seems to have resulted in LE spending significant resources on a 4+(?) week search of a river and another search of a backyard.

Now maybe LE is:

- desperate and willing to trust KAK just because of his links to the murders.
- believe in the confession to some extent due to KAK knowing unreleased details (which is how the Evansdale confessions were ruled out, not knowing details)

desperate is the answer
have anyone wondered or asked WHY this search was done anonymously ?
so when nothing is found.. they wouldN'T have to answer any question
if he knew anything unknown about the crime..this will automatically make him THE suspect for bg right ?
he can't be negotiating being BG !

 

[Ozoner]

A deal in terms of the justice system only means that the case doesn't go to trial, not that the defendant is getting the a better outcome. They may frame it as a traditional barter, but the truth is that most states with the death penalty only really use it as a threat so that defendants take their offer- "you'll get life in prison, but we won't kill you."

A deal also removes the possibility of all the horrible details being made public. The families and friends don't have to be further traumatized through testimony, pictures and the horrible truths of the murder. In the case of Jayme Closs, they did not charge the perpetrator with the any of the assault charges against her. They knew they had enough with the murders and kidnapping and they didn't want to put her through the trauma of publicizing her assault(s).

Indiana has carried out the death penalty as recently as 2009. I think they'd carry it out in this case.

I still doubt whether KAK is Bridge Guy. I see AK as a more likely candidate. Really, both of them appear to be too tall, but maybe the FBI made an error while calculating BG's height.

 

[sunshineray]

Both, probably. He reminds me of my nephew's first wife. She could lie in different directions in consecutive sentences and I really think that she was so emotionally and psychologically damaged or broken that she didn't have any concept of "truth" as something real. There was what was useful to her and there was what wasn't useful or could get her in trouble, and that was all.

I think that's KAK to a T...AJMO it's all about what's useful to him. With all his lies he's pretty much guananteed that even if his info helps LE to finally arrested killer(s), he'll most likely never be put on the stand by a prosecutor to testify against that person. He'd be a bomb to any case because he's a pathological liar, IMO

 

[sunshineray]

desperate is the answer
have anyone wondered or asked WHY this search was done anonymously ?
so when nothing is found.. they wouldN'T have to answer any question
if he knew anything unknown about the crime..this will automatically make him THE suspect for bg right ?
he can't be negotiating being BG !

I thought MS said no murder weapon was found. They said something was found that had some kind of value to the case and confirmed KAK's info was accurate...in some way.

 

[IQuestion]

Here is a small snip from TL4S "I'm sure there are lies interwoven into everything he says, but is he lying about his innocence, or his guilt?"
I seem to remember you recently wrote that his answers/diversions were like standing in the North Pole and South Pole at the same time. And, I have come to the conclusion that if his answers are longer than 5 words, it will always be an attempt to mislead.
He will only admit "his guilt" if it has been confirmed and proved by investigators. He is now exploring his "legal options." Notice it does not say he is exploring whether or not he should plead guilty or innocent. Translation: I am guilty. The evidence of my guilty is overwhelming. I will be found guilty by a jury. I am trying to figure out how I can negotiate for a greatly reduced sentence. Oh yeah, I'll dangle "vital evidence" in front of LE, tell them I was sitting in the vehicle (Uh, LE already knew that KAK. LE has been asking who was the "driver" of the vehicle, not who was the passenger.) So amazingly
KAK now comes up with the burn pit story knowing nothing will come of it? And knowledge of an item(s) thrown into the Wabash River that can stand up to being immersed in water for 5 years? He must be giddy with all the attention.

 

[TL4S]

Here is a small snip from TL4S "I'm sure there are lies interwoven into everything he says, but is he lying about his innocence, or his guilt?"
I seem to remember you recently wrote that his answers/diversions were like standing in the North Pole and South Pole at the same time. And, I have come to the conclusion that if his answers are longer than 5 words, it will always be an attempt to mislead.
He will only admit "his guilt" if it has been confirmed and proved by investigators. He is now exploring his "legal options." Notice it does not say he is exploring whether or not he should plead guilty or innocent. Translation: I am guilty. The evidence of my guilty is overwhelming. I will be found guilty by a jury. I am trying to figure out how I can negotiate for a greatly reduced sentence. Oh yeah, I'll dangle "vital evidence" in front of LE, tell them I was sitting in the vehicle (Uh, LE already knew that KAK. LE has been asking who was the "driver" of the vehicle, not who was the passenger.) So amazingly
KAK now comes up with the burn pit story knowing nothing will come of it? And knowledge of an item(s) thrown into the Wabash River that can stand up to being immersed in water for 5 years? He must be giddy with all the attention.

I think you could be right that LE has some sort of evidence of KAK's guilt, which is why he decided to admit to anything, if he actually did. Maybe a tip came in just prior to the a_shots announcement, or maybe even right before the Peru house "raid" in Nov. 2021. At that same general time, KAK's pre-trial conference was extended, so it's possible there was movement in the case, who knows.

I just think a lot of folks give KAK too much credit, as if he's outwitted LE with his wily ways. Even in the 2020 interview, LE outright tells him he's lying, and has been since 2/25/2017. Liars are something LE deals with on a daily basis, so KAK is not unique. I'm not even going to give KAK a break that he maybe has some disassociative disorder, or whatnot. He failed the polygraph, he made numerous contradictions in his interview, he's a CSAM super-perv, and when he does lie, he's bad at it.

 

[Justice101]

Very Interesting IQuestion and TL4S...

 

[sandy_80]

i asked a friend of mine who has a degree in the field and the fact that she worked in rehabilitation of dangerous killers ..she was with psychopaths in the same room ..I asked her about her opinion on the case...
she didnt say much.. she said its very strange case and even stranger he is still uncaught
she said its def not this dad/kak team
that the killer def knew this place cause the killing site is hidden and very unusual so he could be a local who left town

 

[sandy_80]

I thought MS said no murder weapon was found. They said something was found that had some kind of value to the case and confirmed KAK's info was accurate...in some way.

MS said ...
well if they are ten steps ahead why not tell us ..what it is and why he isn't charged ..and why they keeping deceased RL ON THE SIDE .. just in case this one deflates completely

 

[AC4RD]

Could be, though KAK is not some random person confessing to something, he:

- lived around 40 miles from Dephi
- lived at an address which is tied to social media accounts that were in contact with LG, potentially including the day of the murders
- claimed ownership of those social media accounts
- allegedly searched information about a gas station in Delphi on the day of the murders
- had a clear interest in underage girls given his CSAM charges

His confession seems to have resulted in LE spending significant resources on a 4+(?) week search of a river and another search of a backyard.

Now maybe LE is:

- desperate and willing to trust KAK just because of his links to the murders.
- believe in the confession to some extent due to KAK knowing unreleased details (which is how the Evansdale confessions were ruled out, not knowing details)

Great summary, Beagle! I'd add that KAK admitted to possessing CSAM, and admitted soliciting CSAM from underage girls, both of which are loathsome crimes IMO. And we also know about his lies on facebook, and his father's lie on facebook ("hasn't been home in two years"), both of which were clearly intended to distance KAK from the Delphi murders. And the DNA search, supposedly from Las Vegas. Is KAK's gas station search documented, or is that a rumor? The red Jeep must be a rumor, right?

My own opinion is that there's a lot of smoke around KAK, and there just about HAS to be a fire somewhere.

The issue of what KAK is saying to LE, what he's admitting to or being questioned about, is almost moot, IMO, just now. MOO is that KAK has been incarcerated for two years and LE has had plenty of time to talk to him, get an informer into KAK's cell, and follow-up on evidence they have--virtually none of which we know anything about.

MHO is that KAK has probably been lying to LE nonstop since his arrest, trying to clear himself or to cast suspicion elsewhere. KAK's fingers are clearly in the murders somehow, though, and my guess is that LE is carefully parsing and investigating every statement out of his mouth. They know he's lying to them most of the time, and IMO they're working with that. We don't know what KAK is saying to LE, and we don't know much about what they've investigated. But personally, MOO, I suspect that by now LE has been coaxing information out of KAK along with the lies, and checking it all out.

My belief, and it's MOO, is that LE is building the best case they possibly can, with KAK safely locked up and no danger to others. We don't know what they're working on specifically--and good for them, IMO, for keeping such a tight lid on the investigation--but they've been working, IMO, very diligently. I think when we finally hear what's been going on behind the scenes, we'll be surprised at leads they've followed and evidence they've uncovered. We will hear about charges being filed, in my optimistic guess, within months. Fingers crossed for justice at last, right?

 

[Ravenmoon]

i asked a friend of mine who has a degree in the field and the fact that she worked in rehabilitation of dangerous killers ..she was with psychopaths in the same room ..I asked her about her opinion on the case...
she didnt say much.. she said its very strange case and even stranger he is still uncaught
she said its def not this dad/kak team
that the killer def knew this place cause the killing site is hidden and very unusual so he could be a local who left town

Hi Sandy.
Just a couple of questions- does your friend have a degree in Psychology , Criminology, both or something else?
Has he/she read extensively about the case, or was she giving an opinion based on certain facts that you provided?
I agree with her about the strangeness of the case, no doubt...
I would lean towards the fact that the killer had familiarity with the place..and for all we know - either (or both) KAK or TK did and do know the area.
Let's not forget that the elder Kline is an avid hunter and the potential for him to have been there at Deer Creek is absolutely within the realm of possibility. I would be more surprised to find out that he has not.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

Great summary, Beagle! I'd add that KAK admitted to possessing CSAM, and admitted soliciting CSAM from underage girls, both of which are loathsome crimes IMO. And we also know about his lies on facebook, and his father's lie on facebook ("hasn't been home in two years"), both of which were clearly intended to distance KAK from the Delphi murders. And the DNA search, supposedly from Las Vegas. Is KAK's gas station search documented, or is that a rumor? The red Jeep must be a rumor, right?

My own opinion is that there's a lot of smoke around KAK, and there just about HAS to be a fire somewhere.

The issue of what KAK is saying to LE, what he's admitting to or being questioned about, is almost moot, IMO, just now. MOO is that KAK has been incarcerated for two years and LE has had plenty of time to talk to him, get an informer into KAK's cell, and follow-up on evidence they have--virtually none of which we know anything about.

MHO is that KAK has probably been lying to LE nonstop since his arrest, trying to clear himself or to cast suspicion elsewhere. KAK's fingers are clearly in the murders somehow, though, and my guess is that LE is carefully parsing and investigating every statement out of his mouth. They know he's lying to them most of the time, and IMO they're working with that. We don't know what KAK is saying to LE, and we don't know much about what they've investigated. But personally, MOO, I suspect that by now LE has been coaxing information out of KAK along with the lies, and checking it all out.

My belief, and it's MOO, is that LE is building the best case they possibly can, with KAK safely locked up and no danger to others. We don't know what they're working on specifically--and good for them, IMO, for keeping such a tight lid on the investigation--but they've been working, IMO, very diligently. I think when we finally hear what's been going on behind the scenes, we'll be surprised at leads they've followed and evidence they've uncovered. We will hear about charges being filed, in my optimistic guess, within months. Fingers crossed for justice at last, right?

Thank you for the encouraging post @AC4RD. It's easy to forget that we are all trying to draw a picture connecting about 10 dots, while LE has about 1000. Who's closer to knowing what the picture is?

It isn't just this suspect or that suspect who hasn't been arrested yet, NO SUSPECT has. Regardless of who the killer is, there's a reason LE doesn't have him in custody and we need to respect that. It's funny, I don't follow all that many cases, but in every one I have read about that hasn't been solved, everyone thinks it's because LE blundered. I want to have more faith in LE than that.

 

[sandy_80]

Hi Sandy.
Just a couple of questions- does your friend have a degree in Psychology , Criminology, both or something else?
Has he/she read extensively about the case, or was she giving an opinion based on certain facts that you provided?
I agree with her about the strangeness of the case, no doubt...
I would lean towards the fact that the killer had familiarity with the place..and for all we know - either (or both) KAK or TK did and do know the area.
Let's not forget that the elder Kline is an avid hunter and the potential for him to have been there at Deer Creek is absolutely within the realm of possibility. I would be more surprised to find out that he has not.

JMO

criminology and somthing else related ..ill check with her
she listened to the whole down the hill podcast
I suggested a truck driver would know places or a someone who hikes ..but she thinks the location is very specific
here we go in a very different direction ..like me she thinks its an opportunate murder ..if he is aware of the location..he chose that location for his big act of violence..its not incidental like you are suggesting by inserting the catfishing killers who would have chosen the location
why this location ?
its one crucial question i think to the whole thing

 

[Ravenmoon]

criminology and somthing else related ..ill check with her
she listened to the whole down the hill podcast
I suggested a truck driver would know places or a someone who hikes ..but she thinks the location is very specific
here we go in a very different direction ..like me she thinks its an opportunate murder ..if he is aware of the location..he chose that location for his big act of violence..its not incidental like you are suggesting by inserting the catfishing killers who would have chosen the location
why this location ?
its one crucial question i think to the whole thing

KAK knew she would be there.
It was a day off for someone else that he knew as well.
It was an opportunity to see if the catfishing would result in a bite from a young girl that didn't really believe that anyone would physically harm her.
Kids often meet up through social media. Kids often divulge too much information to people they don't know .
Perhaps LG assumed that other people would be close by in the area that day and it gave her a false sense of security. I guess we will never know what expectations she may have had, but I do feel confident saying that she never felt she was putting herself or AW in harms way.


JMO

EBM to correct myself

 

[Yemelyan]

criminology and somthing else related ..ill check with her
she listened to the whole down the hill podcast
I suggested a truck driver would know places or a someone who hikes ..but she thinks the location is very specific
here we go in a very different direction ..like me she thinks its an opportunate murder ..if he is aware of the location..he chose that location for his big act of violence..its not incidental like you are suggesting by inserting the catfishing killers who would have chosen the location
why this location ?
its one crucial question i think to the whole thing

Sounds like her thoughts kind of mesh with those of a verified law enforcement member who posted on these Delphi threads for awhile. He (?) had a lot of experience with child murder cases and felt that based on typical patterns, the killer would be a person who acted opportunistically, and who likely moved away after the crime (and probably had a history of frequently moving to different locales). I agree that the choice of location is a key to the whole thing.

 

[TL4S]

Regarding location, there's another possibility I've often wondered about. LE mentioned specifically about a_shots asking for girls' addresses, among other things. If the ski mask incident is true, that's supporting evidence that a girl gave her address to a_shots in hopes to meet him.

If the murders were committed by the same person as the ski mask incident, or the same person communicating as a_shots, then isn't it possible that killer had obtained L's address and was lurking around her home that morning? He could have followed them to the trails, staying a distance behind until he saw his opportunity to approach them alone. Just a thought, and maybe unlikely.

That would be opportunistic, except the location would be happenstance. As has been pointed out many times before, though, that location is not invisible. RL showed the bridge during an interview while standing at the crime scene, and the house on top of the hill is in view, as well, from my understanding.

And, of note, KAK did apparently move away the summer after the murders, at least for awhile. Not to mention that he had packed a bag and brought it along on their Feb 2017 trip to Vegas because he thought he was "f'ed" and was going to take off after his dad fell asleep once they got home. I'm not trying to push the KAK storyline, it's just to explain my own thought process.

 

[Ravenmoon]

criminology and somthing else related ..ill check with her
she listened to the whole down the hill podcast
I suggested a truck driver would know places or a someone who hikes ..but she thinks the location is very specific
here we go in a very different direction ..like me she thinks its an opportunate murder ..if he is aware of the location..he chose that location for his big act of violence..its not incidental like you are suggesting by inserting the catfishing killers who would have chosen the location
why this location ?
its one crucial question i think to the whole thing

If you don't mind I would like to ask you something about your own thoughts.
You believe that this is the work of a Serial Killer, correct? I certainly cannot disagree with you here- but can we say for certain that KAK is not a budding SK or that the person closest to him is already that, and has remained undetected for a stretch of time?
Do you believe that this person (the SK) stays within a certain mile radius or that they travel?
I am guessing you might lean towards the first because of his familiarity with that area?
I believe that some Serial Killers are referred to as being "Visionary." This typically would mean that this individual believes they are being directed by god, demonic forces or even a made up person to carry out killings for the better of society.
I can't see how someone with that particular affliction would go undetected in this particular case and in this particular area.
Another type could be A Hedonistic Killer. This is one that I could see getting away with this crime for a while. This one gets pleasure from murdering. They love the way it makes them feel and they do not see people as valuable. They see them as expendable. Guess who I believe would fit this to a "T"? (Pun intended.")They also like the power and control they get from being able to decide who lives and who dies.
I enjoy reading your posts. You give us something extra to think over.
Now...I would love to hear more about why you feel adamant that the K's aren't responsible.

As always,
JMO

EBM to add a thought.

 

[IQuestion]

criminology and somthing else related ..ill check with her
she listened to the whole down the hill podcast
I suggested a truck driver would know places or a someone who hikes ..but she thinks the location is very specific
here we go in a very different direction ..like me she thinks its an opportunate murder ..if he is aware of the location..he chose that location for his big act of violence..its not incidental like you are suggesting by inserting the catfishing killers who would have chosen the location
why this location ?
its one crucial question i think to the whole thing

SANDY80...Hmmm, I did read something in your post that has a VERY SIMPLE and SPECIFIC answer. And, I never would have thought about it if I hadn't read your post.
My killer(s) (ie killer with his look out/spotter) The location is actually a "no brainer" answer. Where else could one lure two unsuspecting teenagers to ensure proximity and isolation. We are talking about 2 young girls who had to rely on others for transportation. It wasn't as if they could have gotten their parents or siblings to drive them 45 miles to Kokomo to meet Anth_Shots, huh? It would be so easy to lure two young girls to a large public park, not raise parental concern and yet have areas where he could also isolate them, too. However, if A_Shots said he was going to be in Delphi, looking for modeling locations, two young girls would jump at the opportunity to catch a glimpse of him. KAK, in my opinion easily has the manipulation skills to get a couple of young girls to leave their home for a casual meet up, and make them think it was their idea. Isn't that what "grooming" all about? Making the victim(s) feel special and gain their trust? Isn't that what predators do in nature...isolate the young from protective adults?
And sending my searchlight out for @gitana1 (No problem if you are busy else where, as my answer can surely wait as long as it takes) ... a spouse can not be compelled to testify, right? But what about other closely related family members?