IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #45

[relay]

http://www.jconline.com/story/news/2017/02/14/search-continues-missing-carroll-co-girls/97885722/


"Search parties scoured the base of the bridge and surrounding trails Monday night, but darkness made the searches nearly impossible" Leazenby said. "With darkness last night, we probably didn't pick up on everything," he said. "With daylight in our favor, we're sending folks back out to basically back track where we've already been".....

It would have been quite risky to move two bodies likely having to make two trips especially once the search began in the area the same evening. It was dark, and their bodies may have been difficult to see. IMO, they were probably there from the time they were killed.

Years ago I was on a search for a missing elderly gentleman whose car was found in a parking lot near a rural park. I was called in on the 4th morning of the search. For three days prior, mostly during the daylight hours, the entire San Antonio Mounted Police (12 of them), The Heidi Search Center, the missing persons detective in charge of the case, numerous LEO's, and numerous other volunteers searched the entire area.

On the 4th morning I was teamed with a group that was to head North then East. We headed North, and just as we were about to head East, my dog hit to the West. My dog air scented, and the wind was blowing from West to East. I radioed to base camp to ask if the area to the West had been searched, and I was told it was searched twice. I asked to bring the team I was with to the West instead and was given the okay. My dog first found a pair of brown alligator men's shoes and then took off and found the gentleman's deceased body about 30 feet from the shoes and about 8 feet from a small creek. This was the shortest search I had ever been involved in. From the time we left base camp until my dog found the gentleman's remains only 5-10 minutes had passed. It was not that my dog or I were better than the other dedicated searchers that day. My dog had a good nose and the gentleman's remains were close to where he hit. The whole area was pretty heavy with brush and trees which makes for good camouflage.

I always leave room for doubt or that perhaps that the girls were moved later. But, just because they were not found the first night, in the dark, does not mean the girls were moved after the area in which they were found was searched from my experience, and in my opinion. I am not verified, but I hope it is okay that I posted this. I just wanted to help by sharing my experience.

 

[Shiressleuth]

@Steleheart
Maybe that's why BG has no shadow? Maybe LE don't want us to know what end of the bridge he was really at? However, if they want to know who he is that wouldn't make sense showing him at an incorrect location. Have you seen GH videos at the beginning of each thread? They help with orientation and may assist with deciding re N or S.

 

[Steleheart]

We don't but why did this billboard say 2:30?

http://wane.com/2017/02/23/reward-up-to-50000-for-information-in-deaths-of-2-indiana-girls/

That has bugged me. But the snapchat pics were 2:07 IIRC and there was a cryptic report that some friends waved to them and "may have" seen a man in black.

That time of 2:30 may have been an estimate of when the kids were llast seen? the send time of the pics? the view time"

Seems to me if it were the time of BG it would have been a part of the Presser? Extraordinary importance if it was the time of BG and only include it in the billboard and no where else? I dunno!

 

[WebSight]

Someone mentioned many posts ago noticing there were parts of the creek with rocks and sandbars where someone could cross on foot. IOW, not impossible even if they had to be careful. Or am I misremembering again? Maybe it was Ninij9?

I believe you might be thinking of Julie Melvin: https://www.youtube.com/user/snooozzzze

She's the gal that did the retracing videos that Gray Hughes used in his.

I am paraphrasing here but she was surprised at how shallow the creek was in places, that you could walk on the sandbar quite a ways before you even got wet, something to that effect.

Is that what you were thinking of?

 

[Shiressleuth]

@ relay. Very interesting post. IYO if the girls had been there all night since the afternoon on the previous day, would the forensics and post mortem show that?

 

[expatCanada]

About that report: this was left out about what Chasity said:
[FONT=&quot]The teens said the man seemed out of place, though Chasity says that "could just be a rumor."

[/FONT]http://www.wthr.com/article/memorial-grows-as-police-continue-search-for-delphi-girls-killer

That has bugged me. But the snapchat pics were 2:07 IIRC and there was a cryptic report that some friends waved to them and "may have" seen a man in black.

That time of 2:30 may have been an estimate of when the kids were llast seen? the send time of the pics? the view time"

Seems to me if it were the time of BG it would have been a part of the Presser? Extraordinary importance if it was the time of BG and only include it in the billboard and no where else?

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

And Jumping off your comment, I'm not certain LE would say definitively, even if they suspected a serial killer, and HAD a fair amount of evidence pointing in that direction. As I mentioned in an earlier post today, half of LE's work in these cases is PR and maintaining order within the community. They aren't going to say ANYTHING that might stoke more fear, rumors, or chaos. They have enough of that to contend with as is, and it only makes their job that much more difficult. IMO

Unless LE believes they know who the murderer(s) is/are and the motive(s), I do not see nor do I believe a serial killer can be or has been ruled out. To quote Greg Massa, assistant special agent in charge of the FBI’s Indianapolis field office:

"Other possible changes in behavior or appearance — like unexpected travel or a drastic haircut — should also be considered, said Massa, adding that there’s no indication that the murders are the work of a serial killer or are connected to other homicides."

First, the article is dated February 22, 2017, early on in the investigation, and as more evidence is uncovered, some may or may not suggest a budding or full fledged serial killer. Second, ruling something out is different than stating there is no evidence. We don't know what LE believed initially and what they believe or have evidence of at that point. I take the statement at face value. They simply had no evidence, but I believe that leaves room for the possibility of LE open to the possibility of the murderer(s) being a serial killer(s).

An analogy might go something like this. Let's say an unstable ex-boyfriend slashes a woman's tires and had told the woman he would do it. Let's say she had no known disgruntled people besides the ex. It would be he said/she said unless another witness admitted to hearing the statement. Assuming no witnesses heard the ex's statement, and assuming that there was no proof (no cameras, etc...), and that the ex denied to LE that he slashd the tires, LE would have had no evidence that he did it. They may believe he likely did do it, but they had no evidence.

http://nypost.com/2017/02/22/slain-teen-recorded-mans-voice-before-she-was-killed/

 

[Steleheart]

Now what are scraps? Thanks in advance.

It must be English :floorlaugh:


OK Too OT and I am gonna get yelled at again :facepalm:

 

[sumzero]

JMO..the problems I have with believing he took them somewhere are - if he took them away from there he'd risk having someone see them, the girls having time to possibly get their courage up to do something to escape and being spotted when he brought them back. Also, if he took them somewhere else and killed them I can't imagine why he'd take them back there instead of taking them someplace that's more secluded, like someplace where there's far less chance people might show up to hike or show up to search for the girls and (I don't even like typing this) I would think with the way the terrain is, taking them back there and getting their bodies to the area where they were found would be more difficult and take more time than just leaving them someplace near the area he would have taken them to.

JMO

I agree. He'd be taking a huge risk by returning them to the area with little or nothing to gain.

 

[WebSight]

Thank you. Sadly I did not bookmark that video. It is one of the reasons I am still in the minority of "Team North".
I understand the orientation of where the BG "stills" were taken. I also understand where the pic of Abby was located. and for that we do, in fact, have a time stamp. We know very well where Libby was when she captured Abby and where she was when she captured BG. But we do not know what time the BG video was or at what distance. We can tell from the pixelation that he must have been some distance off but not all that far. IMO

So we do not have a time stamp for the BG stills and we do not have a time stamp for the "DTH" audio. We have no clue which came first with regard to the Abby photo or if there was a time lag between either BG and DTH. Putting Abby at one point and putting BG at another tells me there was time between - before or after? Also was there time in between walking, video, audio, etc. We don't know. If they all happened simultaneously, then I can understand crossing the creek, otherwise it makes no sense TO ME. Wading across makes no logical sense, IMO because if the SE end is where it happened then why cross the creek? Commit the crime under or near the bridge and get out.

I believe they were forced off at the northwest end of the bridge on their way to get picked up. Then they trekked DTH and over to the property owner's land because of seclusion. Surely dragging 2 panicking kids across water would grab someone's attention and would be too risky even for a craxzy person.

That's just my rant and ramble YMMV...

JMO

I have said that the sitting on the fence icon is not truly representative for me. I need an icon that is a swing. Back and forth, to and fro!

I understand all the evidence for the south side except for that water! Unless they were able to run, got across or almost across and were accosted on the other side where they were found? IDK.

After seeing that there is a deer stand on the north side, near the cemetery, I am leaning north again. mooooo
For the next three minutes anyway:fence:

Re: timestamps. LE has said that the man in the photo was last seen @2:30 P.M. I wonder if that means that they have the time?

 

[Wsimm]

Someone posted either earlier in this thread or the last about the pinging phone/phones of Libby or Abby. It got me thinking about a case I watched recently on Dateline. It covered the murder of Sarah Goode (19) from Long Island. I believe both family, friends and definitely the LE were all suspicious of the murderer Dante Taylor, very early on! There were "cellular connections" between Goode and Taylor the night of her disappearance. The geographic locator tracked his movement and was able to link him to the murder. If I remember right, Goode's phone shut off, went silent when Taylor arrived at her home! She was murdered soon after. This evidence alone was only 1 piece of the totality of evidence that LE put together before arresting Taylor. He is now serving a life sentence w/out parole. Ive seen some other cases like this too. In essences the phone is the smoking gun. Did I read somewhere that there are only 2 cell towers in Delphi? If so do we know if their right next to each other or across town? I remember the quote from the grandfather that "the phones were pinging all over town"! Did either girls phone have a geographic locator? Do we know?

 

[relay]

@ relay. Very interesting post. IYO if the girls had been there all night since the afternoon on the previous day, would the forensics and post mortem show that?

IMO, post-mortem examination, including post-mortem lividity and possible impressions on the body made by branches, rocks, etc. can suggest whether or not the girls were moved. Lividity results from red blood cells traveling via gravity to the lowest part of the body in regards to the ground. This occurs because the blood is no longer circulating. So, if the actual lividity areas of the girls bodies are as they should be according to the positions the girls were found in, it would suggest the girls were not moved--unless they were moved very soon after they were murdered and before lividity would be appreciated. This is all MOO.

 

[Agent Apricot]

We don't but why did this billboard say 2:30?

http://wane.com/2017/02/23/reward-up-to-50000-for-information-in-deaths-of-2-indiana-girls/

Also this "at about 2:30" quote from Libby's Grandfather

http://www.wthr.com/article/2-bodies-found-near-delphi-not-identified-as-missing-teenage-girls

Mike Patty... "We started going through all the social media things, looking at Facebook, has she talked to anybody, have the girls been talking with anybody, Snapchatting or whatever the kids do today back and forth," he said. "[We] really didn't find anything and the last minute, I think we found, going out was at about 2:30 which was a Snapchat of a picture of them out there on this bridge, and that was the last communication we've had"...

 

[BoggLed in Ohio]

It was uploaded to youtube on Feb 11, 2017

Regarding the person who flew the Drone and uploaded the video on February 11th.. has this person been questioned, has their video been looked over with a fine-tooth comb ?and how many other flights have they done in that area recently? Could they have other footage from the previous days or even weeks prior also? perhaps one of their videos might show BG around the area if he frequented it . maybe hes been stalking the area for some time and there could be video of him on the Drone footage that is unknown at this time.

 

[MotherOcean]

The reports I have heard and read state that the deceased were found approximately a half mile from the bridge and 50' from the creek. It was getting dark before the search even began on the 13th, and I don't believe they searched that far from the bridge that night. The next day, if the reports are correct, they were found about 30-45 minutes after the search resumed. Sadly, it seems they were likely close to the location on the evening of the 13th, but simply didn't get that far, and even if they had, it would have been difficult to see much in a wooded area in the dark. As it's also been said, they weren't looking for 2 deceased bodies the first night. It was more likely that they would have looked around the base of the bridge(in case one or both had fallen)maybe the trail, and probably throughout the town? They were, at that point, searching for two kids who might have snuck off to a friend's house, possibly been injured near the bridge, etc. It probably wasn't until the search ended that night that the parents and authorities started to even consider that there might be something seriously wrong. JMO

I can't provide a link so this will have to be filed under rumor, but I am 100% certain that I read an early report that quoted searchers as saying that the area where the girls were found had been searched twice on the 13th. I don't know if I will be able to locate the article but I will try.

 

[MistyWaters]

This comes up in nearly every case I've followed. I think LE does not want to incite fear and chaos. In my opinion, they expect the public to use common sense, and be careful. I can't think of how it's helpful for them to say that a killer is on the lose, and everyone should.... It's obvious since there has not been an arrest.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

Excellent point. Never has LE cautioned the public to be very afraid in any case I've followed either.

Thinking about it, considering the function of LE is to keep the public safe, anything other than calm assurance would be akin to an admission of incompetence.

 

[expatCanada]

The Snapchat is time stamped at 2:07

Also this "at about 2:30" quote from Libby's Grandfather

http://www.wthr.com/article/2-bodies-found-near-delphi-not-identified-as-missing-teenage-girls

Mike Patty... "We started going through all the social media things, looking at Facebook, has she talked to anybody, have the girls been talking with anybody, Snapchatting or whatever the kids do today back and forth," he said. "[We] really didn't find anything and the last minute, I think we found, going out was at about 2:30 which was a Snapchat of a picture of them out there on this bridge, and that was the last communication we've had"...

 

[relay]

And Jumping off your comment, I'm not certain LE would say definitively, even if they suspected a serial killer, and HAD a fair amount of evidence pointing in that direction. As I mentioned in an earlier post today, half of LE's work in these cases is PR and maintaining order within the community. They aren't going to say ANYTHING that might stoke more fear, rumors, or chaos. They have enough of that to contend with as is, and it only makes their job that much more difficult. IMO

I totally agree! IMO, once LE has substantial evidence that a serial killer is in their midst, they sometimes choose to let the public know because the risk of not releasing that info may in their beliefs be higher than if they don't at that point. Not always, I imagine. But, sometimes.

 

[expatCanada]

His youtube site has lots of drone videos of the area. Looks like he got a new present for Christmas 2016 since he proudly has first flight on Jan 1, 2017.

Regarding the person who flew the Drone and uploaded the video on February 11th.. has this person been questioned, has their video been looked over with a fine-tooth comb ?and how many other flights have they done in that area recently? Could they have other footage from the previous days or even weeks prior also? perhaps one of their videos might show BG around the area if he frequented it . maybe hes been stalking the area for some time and there could be video of him on the Drone footage that is unknown at this time.

 

[WebSight]

It was uploaded to youtube on Feb 11, 2017

The problem is we don't actually know when it was filmed.