IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #46

[Ghosthunter]

You have another case in mind where rope w/ a murder was revealed in forcing one victim to tie another up? Doesn't seem very plausible to me. Who would tie the ropes tight? I know I wouldn't.... Citing a case/source might change my mind.

Zodiac. Lake bareyessa.

 

[WildWild_West]

Can someone please link the radio transcript page for this case? I can't find it via tapatalk. Thank you in advance [emoji4]


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[CataKil]

I simply don't believe that the property owner decided to violate probation on the same day that he would leave two murdered children on his property. He would know that his actions that day would be scrutinized by police, and he would know that he would be jailed for probation violation. As I posted earlier, it would be like putting a beacon on his head during a murder investigation, and I just don't believe any murderer is that stupid. He was picked up for probation violation, and his probation violation was detected and confirmed because two bodies were found on his property. Beyond that, I don't see any connection between him and the murders.

I don't think this is the only time R/L has violated his probation. I think people advised LE of witnessing his breaching parole because of the ongoing murder investigation. I am assuming this man has issues with alcohol given his history. Many people who have such issues have other psychological issues...the two go hand in hand. It's a fact. Drug abusers (alcohol is a drug) also tend to be risk takers. Violating parole, knowing it could get you jail time is definitely taking big risk. Just so happens he got caught this time because people noticed and LE was on top of things. We know he violated parole at least twice for a fact...and I bet dollars to donuts he has violated his parole many times prior to this. Maybe he was feeling very comfortable committing criminal acts because he was getting away with it so often. So I see this behavior as putting R/L higher on the suspect list than lower. Whoever killed those girls was definitely a risk taker given the circumstances...daylight, the bridge being visible from the CS, etc. In my opinion these girls were abducted at the South end of the bridge very close to 2:30pm then quickly taken down the hill and across the creek to where they were murdered. I think this all went down fairly quickly and I do believe SA was the main motive. I think the DNA evidence is semen and I believe LE is waiting for the results to verify the identity of the murderer. All JMO with what we know at this time.

 

[Ghosthunter]

I don't have a source off the top of my head but I'll work on finding one. I read an example last week (I think on this forum). The perp tightened the bindings on the first victim after restraining the second. moo

Zodiac at lake bareyessa comes to mind

 

[jillycat]

I don't associate PTSD with child murder or any other kind of murder. I just happen to have friends who have been treated for PTSD and they've been honest that one of the therapy goals is helping them not overreact to stressful circumstances and to help them not choose a disproportionate response to a seeming threat. I myself have undergone therapy along these lines due to how my psyche was impacted by finding my child near dead 1.5 yrs ago. And I know it makes one more likely to overreact, and lowers one's overall tolerance.

Needless to say, however, I included PTSD in a list of possible elements bc someone else couldn't imagine any other motive besides SA.


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I think this crime occurred too quickly and too successfully to be an overreaction generated by trauma, commencing with what seems to be swift control of not one, but two victims, who appear to also have been swiftly directed toward the location of their murder, murdered relatively fast, with the killer exiting the scene as fast as he appeared.

I'm unfortunately familiar with traumatic stress as well. And I don't think a person suffering with PTSD, C-PTSD, or persistent traumatic stress is likely to overreact on a hike leaving two young girls dead in a case that has the FBI's attention all the way to its director.

 

[Jax49]

Zodiac at lake bareyessa comes to mind

Thank you. I thought I remembered Zodiac making the woman tie up the male victim.

 

[CataKil]

With all due respect to other's opinion's that these two young ladies knew their murderer(s) directly, I am highly skeptical. We know that Libby was making an effort to record the perp(s) during the commission of the murder's. I can't fathom that one or both of them wouldn't have made some identifying comment, que or sign if they were directly familiar with the perp(s). Not after seemingly knowing that they were being victimized and having the where-with-all to record (at least audio of the events). So in my opinion, they were not directly acquainted with the perp(s).

However, I still believe that these girls were specifically targeted for this crime by the perp(s). This means that this person is at least relatively local and was/is in the social framework (if even distant) of the two victims and or their families. This wasn't simply a random attack imo, with this level of sophistication, execution and planning.

Very good points!

 

[Confusion]

I keep seeing questions asked (often the same one) and wait to see if someone else has answered it before saying anything. By the time I realize they weren't answered, interest in the answers seems to be gone or the thread is closed. This time I'm going to give my unhelpful answers anyway to a couple.

Seen this many times and something just caught my attention. LE stated they either want to eliminate RL or place him as a "higher" suspect! Was he a slight or moderate suspect before the search warrant?

When they say that nobody has been ruled out (or only a few people have), that means that technically, everybody else is still suspect (or a suspect). I just take it to mean that it might clear him or it might take him out of the "everybody is a suspect" group and make him a real suspect.

The bodies were on private property, and I have been unable to find any accurate information about where they were found. I have read 0.5 to 0.75 miles from the bridge, but that is not possible because it is 0.5 miles from the bridge to the far East end of the private property.

Where would you place the body location?

I don't remember reading that they were found that far from the bridge, but I thought it was said at one time that they were found about .5 miles from the bridge and .75 miles from where they were dropped off. I could be wrong because I have no idea where to find the link (it was within the first couple days after they were found), so you'll have to consider this MOO. I can look for a link though.

ETA: I guess I was wrong...

The bodies were discovered along the edge of Deer Creek in Delphi, which is about a half-mile away from the Monon High Bridge, the last place the two girls were seen Monday afternoon.]

http://q13fox.com/2017/02/15/2-missing-indiana-girls-found-slain-along-creek-in-indiana/

Their bodies were found Tuesday about a mile from where they were dropped off

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/isp-serving-search-warrant-at-delphi-home-in-connection-to-teens-murders

 

[Eileen730]

Because the girls took their picture or at least his.

I think they saw him doing something else.

 

[JLSChook]

Did LE say they interviewed everyone who had been on that trail that afternoon, except for BG?

Not sure, but you just reminded me of something. This is how everyone should know that BG is not RL. BG is LE's "main suspect". (not RL)
http://wane.com/2017/02/19/police-man-in-photos-now-main-suspect-in-2-girls-deaths/

Slocum said the fact that the man hasn’t contacted authorities in the days since two photos of him were released is just a tiny part of what led them to describe him as a suspect.

“That doesn’t make him a suspect by not contacting us. It’s the totality of the evidence we’ve been developing so far that leads us to that,” he said.

Does anyone really think that LE had not talked to RL by this point? (Article was Feb 19th)

 

[Bemused]

I think they saw him doing something else.

Such as?

 

[Deleted member 155000]

I think this crime occurred too quickly and too successfully to be an overreaction generated by trauma, commencing with what seems to be swift control of not one, but two victims, who appear to also have been swiftly directed toward the location of their murder, murdered relatively fast, with the killer exiting the scene as fast as he appeared.

I'm unfortunately familiar with traumatic stress as well. And I don't think a person suffering with PTSD, C-PTSD, or persistent traumatic stress is likely to overreact on a hike leaving two young girls dead in a case that has the FBI's attention all the way to its director.

Agreed on likelihood. The question I was answering wasn't about what was likely, but what other possible factors besides SA could have led to their deaths. While not all people who drink become violent, not all people who seek revenge kill, not all PTSD trigger or overreact, any one of them could be a contributing factor...especially if combined.

I won't get the thread too far OT by citing studies that thoroughly substantiate how PTSD sufferers can be triggered by circumstances others might find mundane or unlikely. I will just say I unfortunately understand from experience how PTSD can lead to a situation escalating to dangerous scenarios.


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[WildWild_West]

Here is a news report from the day after the girls were reported missing and after LE discovered two unidentified bodies. The community was somber and didn't know what had happened. It seems as though they weren't sure if their community was safe and in my opinion weren't happy with the little information LE had given them. I can't help but wonder if that community still feels that way with no answers being given, still to this day after so long.

I find it all to be extremely frustrating that this investigation has been so tight lipped. These are America's daughters and I think everyone is not only seeking justice but answers, too.

MOO [emoji202]

https://youtu.be/ywWISFtyrHc


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[Steleheart]

Did LE say they interviewed everyone who had been on that trail that afternoon, except for BG?

I seem to remember a statement to that effect somewhere around the time they changed from saying he was just someone they wanted to speak to to when they made him the main suspect. Or maybe it was before that when they were being so careful not to call him a suspect. I get the feeling they didn't call him a suspect early on in the hopes he would somehow come forward or it would make someone who knew him more likely to come forward. But yeah I remember hearing or reading somewhere something to the effect that they had been able to talk to everyone else they knew had been on the trail except for him. Sorry I can't recall where I heard it though.


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I seem to be an hour behind...

"St Riley said that investigators had cleared a number of people who were in the Delphi Historic Trails area at the same time as the girls on Monday.

'At the moment we've talked to everybody that we feel that has been through there and none of them are coming up as suspect,' Riley said."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Indiana-home-teens-murders.html#ixzz4dh52qx7N
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Bemused]

Here is a news report from the day after the girls were reported missing and after LE discovered two unidentified bodies. The community was somber and didn't know what had happened. It seems as though they weren't sure if their community was safe and in my opinion weren't happy with the little information LE had given them. I can't help but wonder if that community still feels that way with no answers being given, still to this day after so long.

I find it all to be extremely frustrating that this investigation has been so tight lipped. These are America's daughters and I think everyone is not only seeking justice but answers, too.

MOO [emoji202]

https://youtu.be/ywWISFtyrHc


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I understand yours and others' frustrations but, WADR, LE's only obligation is to Libby, Abby and their families. I have a lot of faith in LE because their determination to find this guy is palpable, and these people are very well-trained, experienced and professional.

ETA Technically, I suppose their obligation is to the state, but they're not obligated to keep the public informed no matter how much the public wants or demands to be in the loop.

 

[Krwiley60]

We really have no idea what he told police.

Does anybody have any court documents stating that in fact he did go to Lafayette? Other than using that as his alibi for the time the girls were murdered?


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[Boxeador]

MOO, a teen hangout spot like seems risky for anyone worried about being seen.
I my opinion, this location seems like a lot of nature/history hikes, you might not see someone for two hours, and then again see 6 or more people in half an hour. It seems regularly visited, not desolate.

However the parking area at the N300W entrance apparently was a problem according to owners who just closed it a few days ago (it was on their property,) "doing things at all hours" is what I think they said as their reason.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

The bridge gets an occasional hiker. I'm of the belief the perp took them where he thought they wouldn't easily be seen,killed them, and left. The entire crime could have easily been done and over with in a matter of minutes.

How is that possible? Are you thinking that the girls were murdered immediately after they were abducted? If that's the case, why not murder them on the bridge?

 

[Aropizt]

Agreed on likelihood. The question I was answering wasn't about what was likely, but what other possible factors besides SA could have led to their deaths. While not all people who drink become violent, not all people who seek revenge kill, not all PTSD trigger or overreact, any one of them could be a contributing factor...especially if combined.

I won't get the thread too far OT by citing studies that thoroughly substantiate how PTSD sufferers can be triggered by circumstances others might find mundane or unlikely. I will just say I unfortunately understand from experience how PTSD can lead to a situation escalating to dangerous scenarios.


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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on triggers or overreaction. I think it's the nature of those responses most of us are getting at. They just don't make sense with this crime and IMO are just not generally the type of overreaction that leads to violence against others the vast majority of the time. I mean I grew up with severe PTSD and my brother in the other hand grew up with what is still undiagnosed but very problematic in his life mood swings that lead to very quick anger and a very very different type of overreaction than the types I experienced with PTSD. So I guess I'm not disagreeing with you but more pointing towards the fact that there are different forms of "overreaction" some much more likely to lead to anger/ rage/ violence than others. PTSD overreaction is more of a hypervigilance and sense of feeling unsafe, remembering past trauma, reacting as you did to the original trauma. I suspect I had a hell of a lot of pent up anger about my trauma as well but when I was finally even able to feel it that came out at different times that had nothing to do really with the PTSD or being triggering, etc. But maybe I'm wrong to think one has to feel some sort of anger or rage to commit murder?

Anyway sorry because this may be running OT here. Just my thoughts and why I think many of us responded to your statement the way we did. For me, personally, it was the way you used the word overreaction and inappropriate responses. You're not wrong in using those words either but just worth pointing out I don't think that's the kind of overreaction or inappropriate/ disproportionate response to things that we usually think of when talking about crimes and criminals. Does that make sense? There's such a strong connection between PTSD and other types of anxiety and panic disorders and I think that's a very different type of response generally speaking from someone who kills people. It's often the very opposite of aggression, though certainly there's an underlying issue with control and wishing/ wanting to gain control over a situation. I guess I just think of anything it's what the girls would've felt and experienced that has a lot more to do with PTSD type feelings and responses than what the killer was thinking and feeling. But I will freely admit I have a bias here since I've been the victim of a sex crime and not the perpetrator of one and I know I'm far from alone in that. (Also not to say I necessarily think the girls were sexually assaulted either)


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[Deleted member 278]

Just popping in to ask when you all think the items taken from RL's home will be back from testing.