IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #46

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Bemused said:
Otto, I've read all of your posts since I went back about five threads before jumping in. I understand your theory doesn't match mine or Burnt Toast's, but did you really mean to state that we need to separate the discussion from someone you don't want to consider? I get frustrated too because I believe my theory makes sense but everyone can talk about theirs within TOS, can't they? IMO
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Totally agree with you, Bemused. Everyone has their own theory for one reason or another and with what we know right now I tend to agree with your theory. Gotta respect that. Many don't want to believe RL did this and I'm not saying he did...however, someone did and I don't want to believe that either, but these two girls are in fact dead. For now all we can do is speculate and hope this is solved soon.
 
otto said:
The suspect might have a very simple alibi of "gone fishing" for the day.
We really need to separate this discussion from the property owner.
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i did not even mention the PO in my post.
 
SK Israel Keyes used zipties to bind both the Curriers, drove them to an abandoned house, etc.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...sf/2012/12/missing_vermont_couple_fought.html

BTW: Keyes is dead, but he didn't know one person that he killed he stalked parks, trailheads, etc. too.
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/a...istance-in-case-of-serial-killer-israel-keyes

Jax49 said:
I don't have a source off the top of my head but I'll work on finding one. I read an example last week (I think on this forum). The perp tightened the bindings on the first victim after restraining the second. moo
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St. Anthony2017 said:
Very possible imo. Wish we could hear more. A couple was seen on the bridge that day. If BG did this to cover an affair then person he had affair with is as despicable as him because she knows he killed the girls!!!
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Yes, I believe that too. Now, she is scared. The old saying ...two know one gotta go.
 
otto said:
I simply don't believe that the property owner decided to violate probation on the same day that he would leave two murdered children on his property. He would know that his actions that day would be scrutinized by police, and he would know that he would be jailed for probation violation. As I posted earlier, it would be like putting a beacon on his head during a murder investigation, and I just don't believe any murderer is that stupid.

He was picked up for probation violation, and his probation violation was detected and confirmed because two bodies were found on his property. Beyond that, I don't see any connection between him and the murders.
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I am not at all convinced it is RL.

In my opinion, though, you can't exclude someone whose alibi led police to question him, who has a criminal record, who dresses similarly, who has been so prominent in the media, whose property hid the bodies, who police served a SW... They of course have to be at least considered, especially when it's been so long without an arrest.

I respect your right to feel it's not RL. But it doesn't mean others' opinions aren't equally respectable...as long as they don't accuse and speak within their own opinions.


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skibaboo said:
[video=twitter;832294869016178689]https://twitter.com/VanwykWTHR/status/832294869016178689[/video]

The SE end of the bridge seen from the crime scene. Any further east you wouldn't see the bridge. MOO

HTH
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The other thing this brings to mind is that if the girls were marched right across the stream to be tied and murdered right away they would have seen the three people that crossed while they were there (per the Heavy article and Facebook posting of those that walked across right after they posted their Snap chat). Gun or no gun there is no way in he** I would not scream, run or struggle loudly if I saw someone in the vicinity who could potentially rescue me or call the police. And I would be looking to see if there were. This picture proves the girls would have known they were close to rescue. I'd rather force a shot being heard and being injured and possibly saved than being tied and possibly killed. I think Libby taking the video indicates she would have had the presence of mind to think something along the same lines...
 
BessDrew said:
Rage, revenge, psychological breakdown, and accidents were just possible reasons, besides assault, that a man might kill two girls.

Rage could be set off by thousands of things, depending on the perp's mental state and sensitivities/pet peeves. Some examples: kids taking his photo and invading privacy, kids perceived as mouthy, kids perceived as trespassing or otherwise disrespectful.

If the person was under the influence, mentally unstable, suffered from PTSD and so on, they could've overreacted in a way that caused the death of one or both girls and then covered it up.

How do you know the perp didn't know the girls? Police haven't released many details about whether the person may have been interacting with them on social media or known their families that I am aware of.

I lean toward a local perp and a quick crime here, but I don't have a favorite theory about why. It could've been sexual assault for sure. But I keep all the possibilities on the table until LE or emerging evidence eliminates them.


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I think it's an unfortunate stereotype to associate PTSD with child murder.

I doubt that being under the influence of alcohol or drugs would allow a person to carry off what's so far a successful crime, and I'm not sure what mentally unstable means here, but again, this looks like a crime that went off without a hitch, so the person was stable enough to pull that off while melting down or in a spontaneous rage reaction...

I just don't think so.

I think this was a predator doing what predators do best - cornering and isolating vulnerable victims for the purpose of doing the violence they enjoy doing. Including SA.
 
Jax49 said:
Sometimes that is true. But also keep in mind older people can be known for talking your ears off. We've all had that uncle or aunt who told you way more than you ever wanted to know. Or the relative who tells you the same stories, over and over again. Seems a lot of that comes from being lonely. moo
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Sorry I'm replying to posts from hours ago again but this is a really good point I think. Worth saying that loneliness babble thing can also happen to anyone. After I developed some physical health issues and got a lot more isolated because of them I would catch myself out at the drug store or something rattling on. And I was in my early 20's at the time but living alone, not able to get out much. Really reframed my understanding of older folks too because until I saw myself doing it was something I mostly thought older folks did too. But nope not age at all, loneliness seems to be the key (just sad that the reason we see it so much more in older people is because they are often some of the loneliest folks around)

With specific regards to the tropical fish comment I can see that both ways either as a result of the above, or lying. Reminds me of my mother. She always thought a lot stuff was no ones business and was pretty private but the problem was that in trying to make up an excuse for things she'd end up over sharing in really weird ways. Basically used to end up making things sound worse than they were! But here's a third scenario as well. I mean it makes me question why speak to the media at all but I mean if the girls were found on your property and you were being interviewed (especially by that one that made him say "down the hill" and such) wouldn't you maybe feel the need to prove hey I had nothing to do with this and maybe inadvertently overshare not out of guilt but simply because woah, look at the questions you're being asked or you've heard rumors people are saying about you being involved or whatever. Honestly I don't know I know that might seem like a red flag but maybe it's not at all.

I no longer know what to make of RL but will confess I'm always suspicious of folks who do a lot of speaking to the media (even felt odd that Abby's family seemed to not want to speak publicly and then that great aunt in MI spoke up. That's nothing to do with guilt or who did it but it made me wonder if she spoke up against the rest of the family's wishes is all and good gosh I don't want those families feeling additional unnecessary pain, you know?) I mean I guess to use a quote I've heard in my own family a lot "it takes all types" and maybe someone like RL is just the type that would've spoken to media whether the girls were found on his property or not. Maybe his loneliness played into that even. There's always multiple ways to interpret behaviors though.


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Did LE say they interviewed everyone who had been on that trail that afternoon, except for BG?
 
Jax49 said:
Did LE say they interviewed everyone who had been on that trail that afternoon, except for BG?
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I seem to remember a statement to that effect somewhere around the time they changed from saying he was just someone they wanted to speak to to when they made him the main suspect. Or maybe it was before that when they were being so careful not to call him a suspect. I get the feeling they didn't call him a suspect early on in the hopes he would somehow come forward or it would make someone who knew him more likely to come forward. But yeah I remember hearing or reading somewhere something to the effect that they had been able to talk to everyone else they knew had been on the trail except for him. Sorry I can't recall where I heard it though.


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With all due respect to other's opinion's that these two young ladies knew their murderer(s) directly, I am highly skeptical. We know that Libby was making an effort to record the perp(s) during the commission of the murder's. I can't fathom that one or both of them wouldn't have made some identifying comment, que or sign if they were directly familiar with the perp(s). Not after seemingly knowing that they were being victimized and having the where-with-all to record (at least audio of the events). So in my opinion, they were not directly acquainted with the perp(s).

However, I still believe that these girls were specifically targeted for this crime by the perp(s). This means that this person is at least relatively local and was/is in the social framework (if even distant) of the two victims and or their families. This wasn't simply a random attack imo, with this level of sophistication, execution and planning.
 
I get your logic, and it makes perfect sense to me, except that, it seems too composed and clear-headed for a guy who(we would assume) has just committed murder for the first time. I listened to an interview with Ed Kemper recently, and he talked about how scattered unorganized he was the first couple times he killed people. I am curious, on the other side of that same coin, if RL turns out to be guilty, if we'll find this wasn't his first time? There are so many things left to conjecture and speculation, though, considering what little LE has shared. For instance, I have thought since the beginning that this whole thing seems very organized and lacking in the "sloppiness" associated with crimes of passion and/or first time perpetrators, however...it could have been very sloppy and full of incriminating evidence for all we know. The point that continues to be a real sticking point for my struggle to accept RL as the perp is the assumption that they were taken from the bridge, across the creek onto his land. Crimes of passion are literally almost always heat of the moment, meaning...a confrontation occurs, it escalates, and someone lashes out in rage. If we assume he could be BG, and that the "down the hill" could also be BG/RL, then that instruction, as well as the walk back over to his property doesn't seem like rage. Also, in crimes of passion, the perpetrators are very commonly remorseful and either run or confess afterwards. They are almost never the calculating and taunting types we see in SK's. I may be wrong, but I've never heard of someone committing a murder in the heat of the moment, in a rage, then being willing to talk with reporters on TV multiple times afterward. So many things in this case just don't make sense. IMO
Bemused said:
You didn't address this to me but that's my theory.

If I murdered two people in "my backyard" as the PO has referred to it, I wouldn't drive several miles, whatever the distance is into Delphi, but I'd go a greater distance like Lafayette because I know I'm going to need an alibi that puts as many miles between me and the murders as I can get while still making it a plausible alibi. People cannot physically be in two places at once.

I expect that when LE tried to verify the timeline of the PO's day the times were off. Many businesses have security cameras and record front door, parking lot, etc.

IMO
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jillycat said:
I think it's an unfortunate stereotype to associate PTSD with child murder.

I doubt that being under the influence of alcohol or drugs would allow a person to carry off what's so far a successful crime, and I'm not sure what mentally unstable means here, but again, this looks like a crime that went off without a hitch, so the person was stable enough to pull that off while melting down or in a spontaneous rage reaction...

I just don't think so.

I think this was a predator doing what predators do best - cornering and isolating vulnerable victims for the purpose of doing the violence they enjoy doing. Including SA.
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I don't associate PTSD with child murder or any other kind of murder. I just happen to have friends who have been treated for PTSD and they've been honest that one of the therapy goals is helping them not overreact to stressful circumstances and to help them not choose a disproportionate response to a seeming threat. I myself have undergone therapy along these lines due to how my psyche was impacted by finding my child near dead 1.5 yrs ago. And I know it makes one more likely to overreact, and lowers one's overall tolerance.

Needless to say, however, I included PTSD in a list of possible elements bc someone else couldn't imagine any other motive besides SA.


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expatCanada said:
Thursday: Police still have not found the man on the bridge. But they say they have cleared a number of people who were on or near the trail at the same time as the girls on Monday.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Indiana-teens-speaks-out.html#ixzz4dgsarr80
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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There have been theories that a female could have been involved in the killings also and that could be the twist imo. Two sets of male DNA and 3 sets of femak
le DNA?..
 
jillycat said:
I think it's an unfortunate stereotype to associate PTSD with child murder.

I doubt that being under the influence of alcohol or drugs would allow a person to carry off what's so far a successful crime, and I'm not sure what mentally unstable means here, but again, this looks like a crime that went off without a hitch, so the person was stable enough to pull that off while melting down or in a spontaneous rage reaction...

I just don't think so.

I think this was a predator doing what predators do best - cornering and isolating vulnerable victims for the purpose of doing the violence they enjoy doing. Including SA.
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Agree with a lot of this especially regarding PTSD. I know there's others here who have been in abduction situations. I've never been but I have been in the much too common situation of being sexually assaulted as a child and one thing that helped me personally to finally begin healing (many years after the fact) was to talk to people about it and sheesh have I met so many people with PTSD. And I just don't associate it with violence to others in most cases (violence to self unfortunately seems a lot more common. Was in my case and many I've met) however worth saying that combat vets with ptsd from that have been known to react violently when triggered (towards a spouse or housemate). PTSD can do a hell of a lot to your mind and in a flashback you can be right back to whatever the triggering trauma was so vividly... so hmm I guess I could see either side but eh that mental state I don't think the person would be capable of getting away so easily and successfully and being so discrete, you know? Flashbacks for me tended to leave me pretty darn close to immobile. Certainly you're just not "in your right mind" when triggered to that degree. So I doubt that's the case here either.

The drugs and alcohol thing though might be a factor. I mean a couple threads ago someone posted a really interesting link discussing how severe mental illness is self not a real or major risk factor for violence while drug abuse is. (though notable that it was not discussing personality disorders like narcissism or such which I believe is very much connected to violence) I know there are other studies regarding this. Worth saying too that while we associate people who are drunk or high as being very obvious and nonfunctional if you've ever known addicts or alcoholics personally one of the things you see is how oddly functional they seem to be at least for awhile. You may have no idea they're under the influence of something or if you have some idea you still are likely gobsmacked when you find out just how much of that substance they were on at the time. I think it's reasonable to guess that we likely encounter people with serious addiction issues or straight up under the influence all the time and don't even know it. Or maybe the addict only gets violent when they're withdrawing. Though I would assume all of this depends on the substance being abused since drugs have different effects and different people react differently.

The above though that I said with regards to mental illness also leads me to believe it probably wasn't a factor. There's been some very notable mass shootings in recent years connected to mental illness but otherwise the mental illness as cause seems to actually me more rare from what I've read. And a simple exercise in logic, given how common mental health struggles unfortunately are yet how uncommon crimes of this nature are would suggest, IMO, that most people with mental illness are not the type to murder two teens. Suppose it's always a possibility but I don't think it's our most likely one.

Definitely too we're seeing this person has this far alluded LE and committed a crime in a very open area with a lot of risk to it yet managed to not be seen. That seems to suggest someone with a lot of mental capacity for planning this stuff all out (versus someone who was triggered in some way due to PTSD or other mental illness or drug issue... though the drug one I'd guess is most likely of the three).

Obviously all MOO.


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