IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #48

[Hazelnutty]

No. They had the mailbox (address) shown on the news... That was enough for Facebook groups to convict. It was horrible.

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Thank you for your post. Those FB groups have no mercy, not even amongst fellow group members.

 

[Lilowlet]

Those are all the right questions to ask. It is important to keep in mind that the girls were very familiar with where they were. That gave them a significant advantage when combined with the distance BG was from them. They wouldn't be in a situation where if they were to have fled that it would be a random direction or place. So that is what leaves me in a quandary as to why it appears (at least to me) neither one of them fled.

That's what I was thinking too. It seems like an advantage as far as distance goes. It's very curious IMO. Leaves a spectrum of what- ifs.

 

[Lilowlet]

saying someone is not a suspect is not clearing them from the crime. The majority of the time LE does not identify a suspect until the the time of arrest.

Right and as I recall it's always not a suspect " at this time" which for me, someone who doesn't think RL looks like bg, leaves the possibility up in the air regardless. Imo

 

[MHCH]

saying someone is not a suspect is not clearing them from the crime. The majority of the time LE does not identify a suspect until the the time of arrest.

Right, I agree with the whole not naming a suspect.

Question if they say someone is "cleared" does that mean in no way shape or form they think this person is responsible.

Has anyone "cleared" ever been then placed back onto a "not a suspect" list. lol

Especially with them stating they think they may have or possible could have interviewed the murderer ( http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/15/indiana-teens-killer-may-have-met-police-prosecutors-say.html )

^^these are serious questions... Terminology and how and when they say things has been pretty interesting take away for me... Following this discussion group.

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[Bemused]

Semi-OT

I just realized I've seen Superintendent Doug Carter of ISP before because he did look familiar. He spoke at a presser regarding that Subway spokesman perv, Jared Fogle.

 

[ocgrad]

It doesn't seem like that was the intent to me. For example, it wasn't aimed at BG and zoomed. That second still of BG is at an angle. The folks here that worked on those stills to align them properly believe that the phone was in motion at the time. I think that is likely the case.

So, my guess is Libby had the quick thought of turning on the video and then hiding the phone. In that process of movement she happened to get a view or two of BG. Otherwise I would think that if Libby were actively aiming that camera and recording LE could release a longer video of BG walking. He had some distance to go before getting to the girls.

I'm a bit unsure about the video/audio Libby captured. I have an android phone so I don't know what it's like on iPhone but when I record on Snapchat I have to hold the video spot to record, when i lift my finger it stops and even if I hold it the whole time it just records a few seconds, stops and I must either save or send. I know most kids and folks who use Snapchat don't use the standard camera much any more. Since she was already using Snapchat it makes sense she would continue and her grandpa said she posted at 2:30. I feel like she may have captured BG instead of whoever was nearer to her because Abby was still on the bridge (the next second of the video may be him actually assaulting her) and she could video him without anyone else knowing because he had to look down. She had a quick opportunity and took it. I know they have more but I bet very little more.
I know it's possible she could have quickly taken the extra steps to pull up her regular video and put it in her pocket which would record longer, I guess until she stopped it. I hope she did.

 

[cluciano63]

I imagine LE thinks the murders took place soon after the video clip, or may know exactly what time, depending on what is on the phone. So that should be useful, alibi-wise for them to help check people off the list.

RL may be unlucky in for instance not having left for Lafayette until 3:30 or later, who knows...if indeed he has not been crossed off the list of potential suspects.

 

[tallula]

Hello, Websleuthers--

I have been following this thread since early on & have also read here in the past on various cases. However, I haven't posted before now. I just wanted to pipe up with some of my thoughts...I am no expert on anything crime-related, except I have been deceived by a "psychopath" for some years before I began figuring things out & basically moved/hid/etc to keep my family safe. On this topic, I can only reiterate what we know to be true--these kinds of very sick people are master manipulators...they get you because we don't expect humans to be so deceptive and cold, so cruel and perverse. In fact, it has been my experience that these types of people are very immature emotionally and get their rare feelings of pleasure from tricking others and marveling at their own brilliance in outwitting the innocent.

In this case, I did not suspect PO from early interviews, but after he was taken into custody for the probation violations I looked closer and found myself feeling relieved--as I think it likely that the perpetrator is off the streets. The interviews, lack of empathy, Freudian slips, clothing/build/voice similarities, LE's actions, all are compelling to me. But I think the most compelling thing for me in this case is probably the opportunity element. When you consider the small amount of time in which this crime was committed, combined with the location of the girls and their being found so quickly--a neighboring person fits very well, I think.

I think the reason for LE being so careful of their wording and everything else is because they want the death penalty in this case and they do no want to do anything to compromise that.

But I also think DNA evidence might not be as forthcoming in this case as we would wish. I don't like thinking about particulars of this or any crime, but I am wondering about DNA in the case of SA. (I do think SA almost certain in this case.) Is it unusual for there to be a lack of DNA evidence in such cases?

Thank you for listening to my ramblings.

 

[Lilowlet]

Semi-OT

I just realized I've seen Superintendent Doug Carter of ISP before because he did look familiar. He spoke at a presser regarding that Subway spokesman perv, Jared Fogle.

Wow good eye! I think it helps, could go back to those pressers and compare terminology for notes, for instance how these things work with specific LEs or how long it's taken for other situations if something is similar.

 

[MHCH]

Thank you for your post. Those FB groups have no mercy, not even amongst fellow group members.

This was our local news and info group...not even a "case discussion group" that popped up shortly after... People from this town. (Before it blew up to a ridiculous amount of followers)

Extremely crazy to watch and follow.

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[Lilowlet]

I'm a bit unsure about the video/audio Libby captured. I have an android phone so I don't know what it's like on iPhone but when I record on Snapchat I have to hold the video spot to record, when i lift my finger it stops and even if I hold it the whole time it just records a few seconds, stops and I must either save or send. I know most kids and folks who use Snapchat don't use the standard camera much any more. Since she was already using Snapchat it makes sense she would continue and her grandpa said she posted at 2:30. I feel like she may have captured BG instead of whoever was nearer to her because Abby was still on the bridge (the next second of the video may be him actually assaulting her) and she could video him without anyone else knowing because he had to look down. She had a quick opportunity and took it. I know they have more but I bet very little more.
I know it's possible she could have quickly taken the extra steps to pull up her regular video and put it in her pocket which would record longer, I guess until she stopped it. I hope she did.

I personally think she used standard and this is why, the audio. BG would have been imo too far away at the time of the vid clip we see to have said those words without shouting. plus leaves ruffling in the background. It could have started as Snapchat and ended with standard though.

 

[MistyWaters]

saying someone is not a suspect is not clearing them from the crime. The majority of the time LE does not identify a suspect until the the time of arrest.

I can't recall any other case that I've followed and LE declaring a specific person is NOT a suspect, much less at least a half dozen or so times.

Can you?

 

[Bemused]

Wow good eye! I think it helps, could go back to those pressers and compare terminology for notes, for instance how these things work with specific LEs or how long it's taken for other situations if something is similar.

I think Doug Carter is the head of ISP. My state's state police aren't called Troopers or Superintendent, but I believe he's Top Cop at ISP so this is a big deal to the Abby & Libby case, IMO.

 

[tallula]

One quick other thought--there are so many unknowns and therefore so much to speculate about, but one thing I have wondered about is the early LE request about info: re hitchhikers. I have wondered if that was part of someone's alibi--that they had hitchhiked somewhere during the sensitive time period, perhaps to get some fish? That would indicate an early interest in this person's activities.

 

[Bagonzo]

M


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[Bemused]

One quick other thought--there are so many unknowns and therefore so much to speculate about, but one thing I have wondered about is the early LE request about info: re hitchhikers. I have wondered if that was part of someone's alibi--that they had hitchhiked somewhere during the sensitive time period, perhaps to get some fish? That would indicate an early interest in this person's activities.

My impression was it's a standard question before they viewed and listened to the video, and before the autopsies and preliminary testing on any CS. That's a guess but I'd think it may just be an early question to cover likely scenarios.

 

[Bagonzo]

I am new here since this case and had seen something posted today about 2 registered SOs in my area (45 mins from Delphi area) and one looks just like BG . The article was posted by police how these two were at a park that is secluded in the woods somewhat and one who was at an Easter egg hunt. Can I post a link to their pictures or SO registry site???


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[Jethro4WS]

Interesting point. I have never personally believed there was more than one and I do want to raise the question that at that side of the bridge where could the girls have really run to anyway? Or did fear cause them to make the wrong choice by trying to run back across the creek towards where their family member would be picking up (if I am understanding the directions of this correctly). I mean they likely knew the trail ended at the end they were at and doesn't look like from video there was really anywhere they could go. Perhaps they also knew it was private property. I realize that may not sound wholly logical (some might say run anyway, try to get to one of the houses or landowners, etc) but fear response is not always logical. I know that very personally. I can tell you all of a story about a time I basically almost killed myself because in the trauma of the moment I was so set on rules and things I'd been told as well as extreme distrust for those around me that I failed to see the logical and literally lifesaving option even when it was pointed out to me. The specifics of my story are besides the point because obviously I wasn't in those woods on that bridge but I know it baffled me later on too why the heck I'd done what I had. But in the middle of such a situation your mind isn't working the same way. So many who have been tragic situations have stated the same even in posts.

Anyway, with that said, you have a very interesting point with regards to the voice and how clear it is he did not run. Worth saying that I doubt one could easily run in general, dressed as BG was. Those jeans look awfully thick/stiff and to say nothing of the potential he's hiding multiple things in that jacket or on his person. Frankly that alone could be reason to suspect a second person was involved. How could you know for sure the girls wouldn't try to escape and how could you expect to catch two young athletic girls dressed the way BG was? Even if it is possible to run or move fast dressed that way let's assume it would be a strain. Those jeans would impede as would anything he's carrying/hiding on him. You sure don't hear any strain or labored breathing in that audio clip.

Of course it's also been pointed out that we honestly don't know when the audio happened. We all seem hooked to the assumption that the audio occurred at the end of the bridge or right away. It really could've happened at any point between there and the scene the girls were found. I think it's logical to look at the area and assume what we are but there's so very much we don't know so perhaps we don't even know when "down the hill" was said.

With all that said, I appreciate this discussion a lot because while I said I've never gotten the feeling there was more than one person (and in general believe it's very possible for one person to subdue two people) these discussions have definitely given me a lot to consider and like everything else, the more I read and discuss the less I'm certain of at all!


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Knowing when "down the hill" is so critical to the time line of events. That is a piece of information that I can't see compromising the investigation, and so LE could release, unless "down the hill" occurred much later on the 13th than at the initial encounter. I don't know if the media ever asked the time that "down the hill" occurred (LE knows for sure).

The most important thing to keep in mind is that Abby lived less than a mile from the South end of that bridge and Libby was familiar with the area as well.

 

[Hazelnutty]

First time poster here. I started following this case because I strongly suspected a local person (about 45 minutes away from crimes) may be BG. I did offer up my tip. However, I have great faith LE has either cleared him (most likely) or will soon arrest him. I also think he may not fit the likely height range of BG. However, I have since followed this case strongly, and I discovered this amazing forum while trying to figure out who committed this unthinkable crime.

I just wanted to share a couple of thoughts. First…regarding RL. My theory regarding his unfortunate and thoughtless remark in the courtroom reminded me strongly of what I know about the early stages of dementia or cognitive decline that may be complicated by chronic alcohol use. I think the reasons his alibi or other stories to LE are possibly consistently inconsistent is a combination of general confusion of details coupled with a paranoia or defensivenessthat may occur with a cognitive unraveling. I think he has enough cognitive ability to realize he may be perceived as a suspect, and over reached to media to prove that he was not. I think the defensiveness continued to show in front of the judge. He used such a sad, dismissive choice ofwords. However, the tone reminded me of someone losing everything (including own mental abilities), and not that ofs omeone possible capable of such a terrible evil. This is only my own opinion & based on no firsthand knowledge.

The second thing I wanted to share was a you tube video that I found when looking at other posts of possible connections to the tragic loss of the Iowa girls several years ago. Forgive me if this has already been posted. Although it specifically relates to the Iowa case, I thought it was so hauntingly familiar that it should be looked at by sleuthers looking for answers and justice of Abby & Libby. [video=youtube;oAZWdBFs2LQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAZWdBFs2LQ[/video] Video title on you tube is “missing no more,”and it focuses on a local Iowa man showing the location of the discovery of the bodies of those two beautiful girls.

I’m sharing my thoughts on stumbling on the video only because it was striking to me If the person I originally suspected was the perpetrator, it would take out any SK element. I think my suspect has already been cleared by LE, but I so look forward to finding out a resolution and seeing justice for these beautiful girls.

Welcome to the group. Look forward to reading more of your posts.

 

[Lilowlet]

Hello, Websleuthers--

I have been following this thread since early on & have also read here in the past on various cases. However, I haven't posted before now. I just wanted to pipe up with some of my thoughts...I am no expert on anything crime-related, except I have been deceived by a "psychopath" for some years before I began figuring things out & basically moved/hid/etc to keep my family safe. On this topic, I can only reiterate what we know to be true--these kinds of very sick people are master manipulators...they get you because we don't expect humans to be so deceptive and cold, so cruel and perverse. In fact, it has been my experience that these types of people are very immature emotionally and get their rare feelings of pleasure from tricking others and marveling at their own brilliance in outwitting the innocent.

In this case, I did not suspect PO from early interviews, but after he was taken into custody for the probation violations I looked closer and found myself feeling relieved--as I think it likely that the perpetrator is off the streets. The interviews, lack of empathy, Freudian slips, clothing/build/voice similarities, LE's actions, all are compelling to me. But I think the most compelling thing for me in this case is probably the opportunity element. When you consider the small amount of time in which this crime was committed, combined with the location of the girls and their being found so quickly--a neighboring person fits very well, I think.

I think the reason for LE being so careful of their wording and everything else is because they want the death penalty in this case and they do no want to do anything to compromise that.

But I also think DNA evidence might not be as forthcoming in this case as we would wish. I don't like thinking about particulars of this or any crime, but I am wondering about DNA in the case of SA. (I do think SA almost certain in this case.) Is it unusual for there to be a lack of DNA evidence in such cases?

Thank you for listening to my ramblings.

Welcome! I enjoyed your post and insight on criminals that try to master over innocent people. The DNA is still a question for me too. They fast tracked it. What kind is it? Who's? Time will tell. I'm impatient but it is important for LE to get all the ducks in a row so I understand. Anyway thanks for sharing!