IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[WebSight]

When I read the article and interpret it, I can't assume that the girls were last "heard from" at 3:30. They missed an appointment at 3:30, and that is an entirely different scenario.

I agree, Otto, and that is why I added my "caveat" to my query. I think that LE holds info so close and we have had to work with what has been given. I wondered that we might be making assumptions about times when there might have been an important fact (the FB post by mum reported by MSM, so quotable) that went unnoticed. That really bothered me because if the post was literal, it would change things.

I would probably "visualize" it in my head like this: I expected to hear from them at three, I didn't hear from them, so I haven't heard from them since then.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

In that same light, aside from second guessing, a person who may know who BG is might also be wary of LE's tactics, and figure that BG will somehow know if they contact LE. We can safely assume that BG is dangerous, and anyone close to him may be petrified at this point.

To a certain extent I slightly disagree. I am talking about FINDING the perps, not convicting them. I am talking about a potential informant/witness second guessing themselves based solely upon images that are blurry at best. A path to denial if you may. Also in the Missy Bevers case which was also referenced here, I do believe they have tunnel vision. Jmo.

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[her]

RSBM
I've only seen genuinely expressed opinions on here and have seen noone saying they believe LE are framing anyone. I have seen many say innocent till proven guilty, which is a completely different thing. Do you have a link to those posts please, as I have missed them? TIA.

I have read it hear and there in the past, idk 20+ threads, can I find them at this point? No but there really were only a few that I can recall. I know you were not asking me personally I just wanted to add that in. I'm not on any one theory either about the bg at this time either.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

I would ad to your question "AND the victims were found on said person's private property"

gitana1, if you're still reading...

In your learned opinion, would LE find someone lying to them as to their alibi in a murder investigation be enough to submit an affidavit to a judge asking for a probable cause search warrant? If so, in your opinion, would it be limited as to specific items or broad in scope and allow LE to look for anything and anywhere? TIA

 

[WebSight]

WebSight, can you please bring over the pics from your experiment of ~80 feet away with and without zoom? I can't find them and wanted to look again to get a feel for how much detail someone could actually see from that far away - also I guess it depends on the phone and zoom?

When you did your experiments with your daughters, did you by chance time how long it takes to walk ~80 feet? I thought another poster said it would take about 20 seconds give or take?

Happy to do so but I have to pull it together again, so it might be a short while?

One of my video clips where she walked the entire way (I used 70 feet as a median between the 60-80 ft estimate) the 20 seconds sounds about right, give or take, as you say.

 

[infarmgurl]

In the Albuquerque case (abqjournal.com) the abductor jumped out of bushes with a gun to subdue the hikers.

 

[JnRyan]

Trying to think why LE went back RL's much later with a SW. LE has all of the video recorded by Libby and has only released that snippet. Even though I've seen in the media that the crime scene can't be seen from RL's house, I don't know if loud voices or a scream couldn't be heard. Maybe LE knows there was a yell or scream per the video/audio from the phone and LE knows if RL was at home he should have heard it. (RL is over 70 yo, so we don't know about his hearing.) RL may have given a false story to cover what he was really doing the afternoon of 13 Feb - driving when he wasn't supposed to or drinking when he wasn't supposed to. That doesn't look good.

 

[cloudajo]

Is there a link stating what time Libby started her video of BG? People are assuming 2:30ish?
We know the snap-chat pic was at 2:07. They did not make it to their designated pickup point by 3:30.
And Abby's mom saying at 6:49 pm, they hadn't been heard from in 3 hours. It is narrowed to 2:07 to 3:49 approx. When did Libby start taking her video?
And we don't know if there are other pictures or how long the video ran, do we?

This is what I'm going by based on info available. I personally think the video of the suspect walking toward them was filmed about 2:30, he was upon them within ~20 seconds, Libby kept her video on and then put her phone next to her side or slipped it into her pocket, at which time it became audio only (IMO). I think the battery later ran out.

2:07PM – Pic of Abby posted on Snapchat
2:30PM - Video of suspect walking towards girls
Audio of suspect directing the girls ‘down the hill’ just before start of ‘criminal behavior’
Criminal behavior

Ref:

2:07PM Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat account showing Abby walking across the old railroad bridge (Ref)

2:30PM ‘Wanted’ billboard later put up by FBI shows picture of suspect and says ‘Male last seen 2/13/17 @ 2:30PM (Ref ~1:35 in video)

ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum called German a hero for turning on her phone's video camera in time to depict and record the voice of her assailant. ‘…To have enough presence of mind to activate that video system on her cellphone, to record what we believe is criminal behavior that's about to occur.’ (Ref)

Sgt Tony Slocum, Indiana State Police Interview (transcribed): ‘…Hopefully someone will recognize that voice and to me, it appears they are saying, down the hill, down the hill, like they’re directing the young ladies where to go. It sounds like it might even be a little exasperated, like he had told them to do that before, and they weren’t quite listening, and he’s telling them to do it.’ (Ref)

Police say Libby started recording video on her phone, but they won't give many more details than that. They wouldn't say the length of the video, when she started recording, what else is heard or if there is any usable video along with it, but they do say there is more to it. (Ref)

 

[asyousay]

Is it unusual that LE have not asked people to be on a look out for the weapon used in the crime ?

So is it likely that maybe brute force was used instead of a weapon ?

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

Would it, or would it not be easier to get said SW of the property if the victims had already been found on a portion of that property?

For example, if I know my victim was killed with a .22 caliber weapon, and I had a credible tip that John Smith was the shooter, I could petition the judge for a warrant to search his house for a .22 caliber weapon.

In addition, if I knew that my victim had been bound, I could put something in the warrant specifying a search to the effect of "cord, wire, rope, or other similar materials capable of binding hands."

If I went in looking for the gun, but in the process found a note describing John Smith's hatred for the victim, I could quickly request a warrant based on my knowledge that such a note exists and seize that note based on a new warrant.

Does that answer your question?


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[NightOwl77]

I am copying this from Kyja's post on the previous thread, post #953 :
"According to this article which includes a picture of Abby's mum's fb post, the girls hadn't been heard from since a round 3:30pm. Anna's fb post was at 6:49pm and she stated the girls haven't been in contact for about 3 hours.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-a...2026d6e26a6f75"

The stated timing is important. The girls were supposed to have someone be at the pickup point between 3-3:30 pm. They may not have been at the taped crime scene until 2:45-3:00pm, depending on what took place between the bridge and the cs. But if Abby's mother is right about the time, (and I do not doubt her on this - she would have known down to the last minute), then either someone called them at 3:30, causing a phone to ring, or someone showed up at the park at 3:30 and couldn't find the girls (and may have yelled their names or honked the car horn).
All of this leaves very little time for the perp to do whatever was done and then make a clean getaway. It bugs me that LE won't even release a timeline for these things. It sure would clarify a lot of things. However, IF they already know who the killer is, and are waiting for more evidence to arrest him, then I guess they don't feel the need to release anything at all.
MOO

This is what nags at me as well. I was pretty entrenched in my own theorizing about what happened at first but there have some great theories bantered about here since then. I think what you brought up one of the most significant tells in this case which leads me to the question: What does everyone here find to be the other most significant tells that can lead to the creation of any one theory? As in when you are working a theory, what made you go down that road to begin with? What were the indicators?
It seems like being thread 50 maybe deconstructing might see where everyone is at in the rehash.

The things that stick out most for me still when theorizing:
1) Short time window to commit crime as you stated.
2) Three people being on the bridge right after the girls were there who say they saw and heard nothing.
3) The way sound travels in woods in wintertime with the crackling of dead, dry leaves (this leads me to a question about the stream... how loud is it? and it was said to be higher that week. Were there significant rains before then, and this is far fetched but could a boat (canoe) make it down to the area from the bridge that crosses the road upstream from there and then be drug out to the cemetary area to be picked up later)
4) The clothes being found in the stream (has this been reported or is it just rumor? and if it was reported somewhere, were the clothes found upstream or downstream from where the girls were?)
5) The clean crime scene (again has then been reported or is it just rumor?)
6) BG's shoulders. Hypothetically the rest of the clothing could kind of cloak his true frame and not be typical of what he usually wears, but unless he wore shoulder pads -- kinda hard to negotiate while committing a crime - his shoulders seem like an outstanding feature. They are beefy and have a distinct slope- width.
7) The gun... it's been discussed that really looks like a gun in his pocket. What percentage of certainty would anyone say with confidence that is a gun?, because if it is a gun, it indicates premeditation and an element of control that would have been desired by the perpetrator.
8) The picture on one of the threads here taken apparently from the crime scene where the MT bridge is clearly visible from there, which doesn't seem to mesh w some of the other articles that show the crime scene being further north, and I find in thinking about this the actual site of the crime scene in relation to exactly where the bridge ends seems to be crucial.
9) The letter from the attorney that says they were both killed on the 13th. IDK wholly why it seems to me to be right now but that seems significant.
10) The fact that Libby (or Abby) felt compelled to film BG in the first place.
11) Were all the connecting roads (the one that passes over the stream and goes past the cemetary, and the one that leads to the dirt road that passes under MTB but does not pass the Transfer Station) directly accessible to the Hoosier Highway -- meaning are there on ramps from those roads to the highway?
12) Also someone said something about a cave being close to there.. How close is it? Is it along Deer Creek?

And last but not least can we discuss stuff from the scanner thread here? It sounds like we can't discuss stuff from this thread there but how about vice versa? There is something significant from the scanner thread I'd like to ask about here maybe as well...

 

[Bemused]

In that same light, aside from second guessing, a person who may know who BG is might also be wary of LE's tactics, and figure that BG will somehow know if they contact LE. We can safely assume that BG is dangerous, and anyone close to him may be petrified at this point.

WADR, Craig Peyser was a 13-year veteran police officer. There were red flags he was targeting women via traffic stops on the freeways he regularly patrolled and making inappropriate gestures or overt sexually suggestive and harassing gestures and comments. CA Highway Patrol swept that under the rug because Peyser apparently had a reputation as a good cop. I don't know when the first complaint was lodged, but he continued until one night he strangled Cara Knott and threw her body over a bridge where he'd pulled her over in his capacity as a sworn police officer.

The point is, he went from inappropriate and creepy while on duty to murder. It happens and it doesn't mean people are serial killers, but that people snap. There is usually some behavior prior to the murder(s) that raise red flags. CHP ignored the red flags and Cara Knott paid the price. CHP is a good organization so it had to have been local supervisors who ignored warning signs. IMO

ETA And after murdering Cara Knott and throwing her body over a bridge, Peyser went back to enforcing motor vehicle laws by pulling over motorists and citing them on that same shift, on that same night.

 

[Sir WiggleBottom III]

Is it unusual that LE have not asked people to be on a look out for the weapon used in the crime ?

So is it likely that maybe brute force was used instead of a weapon ?

or they were drowned

 

[cloudajo]

Happy to do so but I have to pull it together again, so it might be a short while?

One of my video clips where she walked the entire way (I used 70 feet as a median between the 60-80 ft estimate) the 20 seconds sounds about right, give or take, as you say.

Thanks, no rush, I just meant can you link to your earlier posts with the pics from your experiments. I can't seem to find posts by username using the search feature.

 

[NightOwl77]

I don't think sex was a motivating factor. I think they saw something illegal happening, which is how they got the footage, and were silenced.

Moo.


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Do you have a theory as to what type of illegal activity and why it would be transpiring at that particular location w the bridge involved? Just trying to understand more of the picture you had in mind.

 

[0101ABA]

And last but not least can we discuss stuff from the scanner thread here? It sounds like we can't discuss stuff from this thread there but how about vice versa? There is something significant from the scanner thread I'd like to ask about here maybe as well...

(rsbm)

The discussion on the scanner thread needs to stay on the scanner thread and cannot be discussed here at all.

If you have any questions about something specific re: the scanner thread discussion that you feel may be appropriate to be brought to this thread, please contact any moderator and we'd be happy to take it into consideration. Thanks!

 

[NightOwl77]

If Libby and Abby were last heard from at 3:30 where were they between 2:30 (when they supposedly encountered BG) and 3:30 when they talked to Abby's mother?

Yea, that's really puzzling. So the mother or someone heard from the girls between 3-4pm if she is stating that around 7 pm that they hadn't been heard from in 3 hours? I wonder if that was literal or if she meant they weren't in contact since the time they were supposed to be picked up. I wonder if someone actually had contact with them after 2:15pm or if the snapchat was the last communication.

When was the last communication from the girls to anyone?

 

[animal16105]

This is what nags at me as well. I was pretty entrenched in my own theorizing about what happened at first but there have some great theories bantered about here since then. I think what you brought up one of the most significant tells in this case which leads me to the question: What does everyone here find to be the other most significant tells that can lead to the creation of any one theory? As in when you are working a theory, what made you go down that road to begin with? What were the indicators?
It seems like being thread 50 maybe deconstructing might see where everyone is at in the rehash.

The things that stick out most for me still when theorizing:
1) Short time window to commit crime as you stated.
2) Three people being on the bridge right after the girls were there who say they saw and heard nothing.
3) The way sound travels in woods in wintertime with the crackling of dead, dry leaves (this leads me to a question about the stream... how loud is it? and it was said to be higher that week. Were there significant rains before then, and this is far fetched but could a boat (canoe) make it down to the area from the bridge that crosses the road upstream from there and then be drug out to the cemetary area to be picked up later)
4) The clothes being found in the stream (has this been reported or is it just rumor? and if it was reported somewhere, were the clothes found upstream or downstream from where the girls were?)
5) The clean crime scene (again has then been reported or is it just rumor?)
6) BG's shoulders. Hypothetically the rest of the clothing could kind of cloak his true frame and not be typical of what he usually wears, but unless he wore shoulder pads -- kinda hard to negotiate while committing a crime - his shoulders seem like an outstanding feature. They are beefy and have a distinct slope- width.
7) The gun... it's been discussed that really looks like a gun in his pocket. What percentage of certainty would anyone say with confidence that is a gun?, because if it is a gun, it indicates premeditation and an element of control that would have been desired by the perpetrator.
8) The picture on one of the threads here taken apparently from the crime scene where the MT bridge is clearly visible from there, which doesn't seem to mesh w some of the other articles that show the crime scene being further north, and I find in thinking about this the actual site of the crime scene in relation to exactly where the bridge ends seems to be crucial.
9) The letter from the attorney that says they were both killed on the 13th. IDK wholly why it seems to me to be right now but that seems significant.
10) The fact that Libby (or Abby) felt compelled to film BG in the first place.
11) Were all the connecting roads (the one that passes over the stream and goes past the cemetary, and the one that leads to the dirt road that passes under MTB but does not pass the Transfer Station) directly accessible to the Hoosier Highway -- meaning are there on ramps from those roads to the highway?
12) Also someone said something about a cave being close to there.. How close is it? Is it along Deer Creek?

And last but not least can we discuss stuff from the scanner thread here? It sounds like we can't discuss stuff from this thread there but how about vice versa? There is something significant from the scanner thread I'd like to ask about here maybe as well...

You make some great points, I;ve always wondered about the first 2. Without a time of death couldn't of happened anywhere from say 3:00 till the time the bodies were found.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

I understand what you're saying. And yes, there are nearly always red flags which get brought up after the fact. I remember reading about the hitman/SK Richard Kuklinsky(?) and he had been physically abusive toward his wife and children, but they were scared of him. If we assume for a second that RL may not be BG, then getting the correct tip could be compromised by anyone close to BG who is already afraid of him. That is all I was trying to say. And with RL, yes there are already red flags, such as his probable alcoholism and the protective order, and yes, people do "snap". While I still believe RL could be the guy, until ~4/24(unless they say something definitively before then) we are in limbo, due to waiting on all evidence to be examined, so I am looking at other possibilities as well, as I have from the beginning.

WADR, Craig Peyser was a 13-year veteran police officer. There were red flags he was targeting women via traffic stops on the freeways he regularly patrolled and making inappropriate gestures or overt sexually suggestive and harassing gestures and comments. CA Highway Patrol swept that under the rug because Peyser apparently had a reputation as a good cop. I don't know when the first complaint was lodged, but he continued until one night he strangled Cara Knott and threw her body over a bridge where he'd pulled her over in his capacity as a sworn police officer.

The point is, he went from inappropriate and creepy while on duty to murder. It happens and it doesn't mean people are serial killers, but that people snap. There is usually some behavior prior to the murder(s) that raise red flags. CHP ignored the red flags and Cara Knott paid the price. CHP is a good organization so it had to have been local supervisors who ignored warning signs. IMO

ETA And after murdering Cara Knott and throwing her body over a bridge, Peyser went back to enforcing motor vehicle laws by pulling over motorists and citing them on that same shift, on that same night.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I don't see how the family heard from them after 14.30 as we know the video Libby took was just before criminal activity began so unless they was held hostage and made to call home ?

Could the killer have texted someone pretending to be the girls telling them to come later to pick them up? If he had the phone he could have.