IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #55

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Thanks, Nin. I, too, think there are two crime scenes. One where a possible assault happened, and the second one, where the girl's bodies were discovered.

I am also wondering, if the POI/BG knew the girls would stick together and he would only have to take one at gunpoint to control them both. Not saying that's what happened, but it is a possibility.

I think the motive in this horrible double murder will directly lead to the identity of the murderer or murderers. I hear the leading detective stating they are "dotting their i's and crossing their t's". They are working thoroughly and meticulously. He said other supporting LE agencies agree, "they are on the right path".

This small community, Delphi, has not seen a homicide in app. 20 years (google!) and then all of a sudden something so horrible happens? How did the dynamics change? And why now?

All IMO

-Nin
 
I feel LE has absolutely no clues whatsoever as to who has committed this crime. They have a pic, they have a voice. But still they cannot solve this crime. I feel they are not experienced and messed up early on. The FBI has dwindled down. The search has now been downsized. This crime will not be solved. They refuse to release any other evidence that the public may be able to use to assist in solving the crime. Meanwhile they continue to hold on to clues or evidence selfishly and time goes by day by day. This horrible crime really needs to be solved... not preserved forever.


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Either LE have no clues or are holding onto clues - it cannot be both AFAICS.
 
Does anyone have anything further on the incident last night about a guy flagging down LE to report something about the case? It was in Grant County IIRC. Anyone have a link?

Nothing to report I have been monitoring social media and the news throughout the day and night. There is an unconfirmed rumour on social media it was a drug bust and nothing to do with this case.
 
Either LE have no clues or are holding onto clues - it cannot be both AFAICS.

They were handed two clues by the victims. Voice and photo. Now we need them to solve the crime. I am sure there is other evidence.


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Thank you. I made another map of the approximate main crime scene (CS) location looking at it from the South side. The bridge would be located behind the SW corner of the map:

attachment.php


The reason I say main crime scene: If you re-watch the RTV6 helicopter video on FB, you will notice CS workers and/or searchers working almost the entire area.

There are not only the divers and the folks, who are walking through the creek, the cars parked on the S side of the creek on that access road, there are also people dressed in white searching the area around the bridge.

There are police barricading the street in the vicinity of the Freedom bridge area, as well as all other accesses. The video also shows white (police) cars parked in most driveways of the surrounding private properties.

This was one big crime scene IMO with at least one main CS and perhaps a second one around the SE end of the bridge.

All IMO

-Nin

Your post reminded me of the (blue) backpack. Didn't LE mention something about notifying them if anyone remembered seeing BG/possible suspect discarding a backpack? Maybe it wasn't blue (maybe I made that part up?!) Anyway, I am certain that I can't remember if we (the public) were told the girls actually had a backpack with them.

Sheesh, I wish we had a little more info :(
 
Sadly, this thread has really slowed down. IMO - we have nothing to really sleuth anymore until LE releases something else.
Justice for Abby & Libby - heartbreaking.
 
Disagree about secondary crime scene. NO crime scene yellow tape on the other side of the creek per RTV channel 6 flyover the next day. JMO


Thank you. I made another map of the approximate main crime scene (CS) location looking at it from the South side. The bridge would be located behind the SW corner of the map:

attachment.php


The reason I say main crime scene: If you re-watch the RTV6 helicopter video on FB, you will notice CS workers and/or searchers working almost the entire area.

There are not only the divers and the folks, who are walking through the creek, the cars parked on the S side of the creek on that access road, there are also people dressed in white searching the area around the bridge.

There are police barricading the street in the vicinity of the Freedom bridge area, as well as all other accesses. The video also shows white (police) cars parked in most driveways of the surrounding private properties.

This was one big crime scene IMO with at least one main CS and perhaps a second one around the SE end of the bridge.

All IMO

-Nin
 
Depends on the motive really. If the motive is sexual then abducting from under bridge by vehicle to a safer location could be one reason. Bringing them back to the creek via the cemetery may also have been easier in some respects as noone would have noticed due to all the search activity along the trails and bridge areas. The perp may also have wanted them found. The main reason it matters is just because it is an unknown at the moment IMO.

Looking at the topography map, I notice the very steep banks beneath the cemetery toward the river. The actual crime scene is to the east. That seems an extraordinarily long way to transport bodies by foot for no obvious reason or benefit, considering they could've simply been left at the cemetery.

Do you have any idea the distance and time involved, from the cemetery to the crime scene, via walkable terraine?


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Here are 3 more maps and info Bob S. did early on- For anyone who is interested in reading "some" of the past info without having to read 55 threads, the discussion around the times of these maps was really good. We had some good brain power going!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-6&p=13167569#post13167569

Thank you! I'm very interested and indeed the brain power that I observed back then was totally impressive. At the time I thought the case would be solved very quickly. Now's an excellent time to review all that valuable research.
 
Just want to point out "motive" is not necessary in a court of law. "Intent" is important and a difference. JMO. (close together but different)

For example: Motive = Why? Motive doesn't prove guilt and is very arbitrary.

Intent = purpose or action of the crime. It's deliberate and generally has 4 levels to help prove the crime: (means and opportunity)
1) purposely
2) knowingly
3) recklessly
4) negligently


Depends on the motive really. If the motive is sexual then abducting from under bridge by vehicle to a safer location could be one reason. Bringing them back to the creek via the cemetery may also have been easier in some respects as noone would have noticed due to all the search activity along the trails and bridge areas. The perp may also have wanted them found. The main reason it matters is just because it is an unknown at the moment IMO.
 
This news report compares a 1994 case and the murder of Erin McKenzie to the Delphi tragedy. Back then social media wasn't very active, yet this describes the impact of wrongful accusations even then.

"The Delphi investigation and the McKenzie investigation have another similarity.

A couple of days into investigating Erin's killing, police swarmed the apartment complex to serve a search warrant at a townhouse apartment near where kids routinely played. The man who lived there was eliminated as a suspect within minutes of serving the warrant, but it ruined his life for years.

Similarly, in Delphi police swarmed a home on Bicycle Bridge Road to serve a warrant for a man who quickly was dismissed as a suspect.

"You talk about a nightmare," the man from Anderson said, 23 years after the crime. He asked not to be identified.

"I got assaulted two or three times because of it," he said last week. "Most didn’t see the news blurb that I was in church.

"The girl I was dating, we broke up because of that."

Delphi police publicly cleared the man from the search warrant on Bicycle Bridge Road, but threats were posted on social media, prompting authorities to again tell people not to harass the man because he was not involved in the killings.

"You learn to live with it, but it never, ever goes away," the man from Anderson said."
http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...stigation-means-keeping-low-profile/98214716/


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Either LE have no clues or are holding onto clues - it cannot be both AFAICS.

It seems like there must be at least dozens of small clues that only the murderer would know. I don't know why causes of death would be kept so quiet. I am new to this- so I would like to ask veteran sleuthers- has this become the usual way for law enforcement to handle murders- to keep cause of death a secret from the public?
 
Disagree about secondary crime scene. NO crime scene yellow tape on the other side of the creek per RTV channel 6 flyover the next day. JMO

At some point this tape was placed next to the red barricade at the SE end of the bridge:

attachment.php


Photo credit to IllinoisMissing

All IMO

-Nin
 

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  • Indiana south barricade by illinois missing.jpg
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Disagree that LE 'publicly' cleared the BBR family/people. JMO.


This news report compares a 1994 case and the murder of Erin McKenzie to the Delphi tragedy. Back then social media wasn't very active, yet this describes the impact of wrongful accusations even then.

"The Delphi investigation and the McKenzie investigation have another similarity.

A couple of days into investigating Erin's killing, police swarmed the apartment complex to serve a search warrant at a townhouse apartment near where kids routinely played. The man who lived there was eliminated as a suspect within minutes of serving the warrant, but it ruined his life for years.

Similarly, in Delphi police swarmed a home on Bicycle Bridge Road to serve a warrant for a man who quickly was dismissed as a suspect.

"You talk about a nightmare," the man from Anderson said, 23 years after the crime. He asked not to be identified.

"I got assaulted two or three times because of it," he said last week. "Most didn’t see the news blurb that I was in church.

"The girl I was dating, we broke up because of that."

Delphi police publicly cleared the man from the search warrant on Bicycle Bridge Road, but threats were posted on social media, prompting authorities to again tell people not to harass the man because he was not involved in the killings.

"You learn to live with it, but it never, ever goes away," the man from Anderson said."
http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...stigation-means-keeping-low-profile/98214716/


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At some point this tape was placed next to the red barricade at the SE end of the bridge:

attachment.php


Photo credit to IllinoisMissing

All IMO

-Nin

So THAT is the secondary crime scene? Right next to the bridge? Really?
 
Regardless of photos, the bodies were said to be found 50 to 60 feet away from the river. If searchers are looking for drowning victims (what other reason is there to search along side a river) and in total darkness, that's not real close in my opinion.

But I think I'm missing why anyone is suggesting the bodies were moved, without knowing the rest of the theory. Do you know what that might be? Maybe why it matters would then make more sense.
Well, for me, I don't think the bodies were moved but rather that the girls were taken from the area alive and returned dead to where they were found. My theory is based on what I have seen of the search, the duration of the search, and how easily and quickly the girls were found the next day.

As I have said in previous posts, I find it hard to believe that experienced searchers would miss two bodies. I can understand missing one body. But the area and volume of space taken up by two bodies makes it harder to miss finding at least one of them. From the video I posted with the flowers marking what I believe is the spot that the girls were found I can't see how two bodies in that space could be missed. From the search video at night there is a group of 6 Delphi fire fighters and they aren't searching one behind each other but rather they are spread apart. With 6 people you can cover a swath of space of 70 feet wide. The girls were only 50 or so feet from the creek.

Also, when you look at the image of the crime scene (the one with RL's dog in it) the first thing that is apparent is that in the daylight it is quite easy to see into that area from on that hill. Where that image was taken there is a path that goes straight down to not far from where the girls were found. The closer you get it becomes easier to see as you come down that hill. Once you get into the trees there will be trees in your line of sight so it then gets harder. However, the location where the flowers were placed is plainly visible in the image with RL's dog. If there were bodies there they would be seen. We know that family and friends were out in the daylight searching before LE was called and no doubt even after LE was called.

There are paths throughout that north side. One path starts mere feet from the bridge and heads East toward where the girls were found. Once that path crosses the path down from the cemetery it continues along and you will end up right where the image with RL's dog was taken. Libby's sister was very familiar with the area. I am willing to bet so were a number of the friends out searching. And I can't imagine that the very first kinds of searches by these people would not have been to walk the paths and see if they come across the girls. I would think that it is far more likely when looking for two live girls that you would expect those girls to also be walking the paths rather than randomly traipsing through tree limbs and forest debris.

It is not as if they stood on the main trail and yelled for the girls. In fact, when watching the search video from the night of the 13th you don't hear anyone yelling for them. So, if anyone at all walked that path from the bridge that quite literally will take you to where the girls were found the girls would have been found. It only takes a few minutes to walk that path to get to where they were, likely less than 10. Not to mention that it would still be bright out until almost 6pm since there were few clouds at all that day.

There were far too many people that went through that area where they were found, trained or untrained, in daylight and at night, in my opinion, for all of them to miss two bodies.

The most important thing is, and I have stated this more than once on these threads, is that the media has never asked the question of whether or not the girls were killed where they were found. It is one of the first questions in any press conference when LE has found a body of a person outdoors, especially in a wooded area. LE has never volunteered that information either. This bothers me the most and is what makes me question whether or not they were killed there.

One observation I will also add is that the searches at Bicycle Bridge RD and RL's were extensive, involving FBI crime scene personnel, state police crime scene people, and a large LE presence. It gives me the distinct impression that LE is looking for more than items and, in my opinion, LE were (and still are) looking for the murder scene.

I have a few more reasons for thinking this way but this post is long enough.
 
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