IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #59

[MistyWaters]

This photo illustrates the area of the blockades. During the actual processing of the crime scene, nobody was allowed near it. (I hope this link to the photo works.)

Hmmm, a thumbnail but no photo?

 

[Peace777]

I wonder that LE isn't releasing video or more stills because the chances of identifying a suspect based on solely on physical likeness is low, considering the facial features are not visible. Earlier LE asked for leads also based on changes in behaviour or appearance following the date of Feb 13th. Three months along, tips based on solely on appearance without other factors become even more difficult to investigate.

In my opinion it's prudent they put their time and energy toward taking a close 2nd look at some of the 16000 or 18000 tips they've already received, applying additional information they've since learned.

In criminal investigations they say the first 48 hours are crucial to gather evidence and get a possible suspect identified etc
"If this case isn't solved in 48 hours, the chances of a successful investigation are dramatically reduced."
http://criminology.regis.edu/criminology-programs/resources/crim-articles/first-48-hours-homicide FWIW

 

[DeDee]

The folks who processed the crime scene would have bagged and removed all leaves etc. from the immediate area the girls were found as well as any secondary areas suspected of being involved. So IMO IF the image of the flowers was on the precise spot they were found, then the leaves got blown back onto that area, is the only explanation I have for that. I also can't find any pictures online purporting to be the precise location of the CS, just pics of the general location. Please share links?

No. The images are in the 59 threads. If you want to see them, I urge you to search for them, please. The bouquet of flowers were placed close to a tree. The leaves appear to be many inches deep and not just a few scattered here and there. None of the leaves showed signs of decomposition as they would if they had been overturned. The leaves on top appear to be faded, with curled edges, and brittle.

One member has posted SSs of the CS area. Another has posted the image of the path next to the CS copiously in an effort to open eyes to the fact that the CS was indeed pristine.

Pristine = clean, fresh, neat

RL used the word pristine after prompting by a reporter. Apparently the reporter saw the area as pristine and that is how it would be described. Apparently, we have two choices: 1) their bodies were placed on top of the leaves after the murders or 2) the girls were hung. I negated the second choice by thoughts that the trees were not sturdy enough in the CS area. After further study of the trees within the CS area, I realize it could be a slight possibility.

I could be wrong in that their bodies could have been covered by leaves in an effort to hide them but the leaves are level and not a heap of leaves is found there to demonstrate that leaves were used as coverage. There are no signs the leaves were raked, again, the leaves show no signs of decomposition of being overturned.

Can you provide a link or image of CSI collecting leaves, or bags of leaves, being taken away from the CS because there is a slim possibility that forensics removed a million leaves in the hopes of microscopically finding a clue?

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

No. The images are in the 59 threads. If you want to see them, I urge you to search for them, please. The bouquet of flowers were placed close to a tree. The leaves appear to be many inches deep and not just a few scattered here and there. None of the leaves showed signs of decomposition as they would if they had been overturned. The leaves on top appear to be faded, with curled edges, and brittle.

One member has posted SSs of the CS area. Another has posted the image of the path next to the CS copiously in an effort to open eyes to the fact that the CS was indeed pristine.

Pristine = clean, fresh, neat

RL used the word pristine after prompting by a reporter. Apparently the reporter saw the area as pristine and that is how it would be described. Apparently, we have two choices: 1) their bodies were placed on top of the leaves after the murders or 2) the girls were hung. I negated the second choice by thoughts that the trees were not sturdy enough in the CS area. After further study of the trees within the CS area, I realize it could be a slight possibility.

I could be wrong in that their bodies could have been covered by leaves in an effort to hide them but the leaves are level and not a heap of leaves is found there to demonstrate that leaves were used as coverage. There are no signs the leaves were raked, again, the leaves show no signs of decomposition of being overturned.

Can you provide a link or image of CSI collecting leaves, or bags of leaves, being taken away from the CS because there is a slim possibility that forensics removed a million leaves in the hopes of microscopically finding a clue?

https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_yielding_skeletal_remains_among_leaf_litter
This is how a crime scene is processed in the woods on leafy terrain. This is one example, which happens to be for skeletonized remains, but I have sat through many classes discussing how firefighters and paramedics can aid in preserving a crime scene, and according to the state police crime lab director in my state, they absolutely do sift through the leaves (or trash, or sand, or whatever the person was found on top of) for a reasonable circumference. If the evidence can't be accommodated and searched on site, it is removed and searched off site. I am happy to provide additional links should you so request.

 

[DeDee]

In one of the videos of LE interviews I watched (sorry didn't keep the link) it was remarked that they "turned over every leaf". Considering the high profile LE involvement, a thorough investigation searching for crime scene evidence definitely would result in disturbed leaves. By the time the blockades were removed, it makes sense the scene was restored to a semblance of its natural state.

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://fox59.com/2017/02/17/delphi-community-prepares-to-say-goodbye-to-teen-girls/

“We’re looking at every stone and looking to turn over every stone that we can, that is reasonable,” he said during the broadcast.
http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/carroll...investigation-says-dna-evidence-fast-tracked/

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://cbs4indy.com/2017/02/17/police-tracking-down-tips-to-find-who-killed-delphi-teenagers/ Repeat of the Fox59 quote

 

[KellyNoonan]

After watching RL's life turned upside down, I am not sure I would come forward.

That's sad. Two young girls were brutally murdered and people are more concerned about covering up their own transgressions. Don't break the law, don't lie...and you never have to look over your shoulder.

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://fox59.com/2017/02/17/delphi-community-prepares-to-say-goodbye-to-teen-girls/

“We’re looking at every stone and looking to turn over every stone that we can, that is reasonable,” he said during the broadcast.

http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/carroll...investigation-says-dna-evidence-fast-tracked/

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://cbs4indy.com/2017/02/17/police-tracking-down-tips-to-find-who-killed-delphi-teenagers/ Repeat of the Fox59 quote

Dedee, I think we are saying the same thing. Regardless of if they put the leaves back after searching them systematically, every leaf in the immediate vicinity of the crime scene was searched.

 

[DeDee]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_yielding_skeletal_remains_among_leaf_litter
This is how a crime scene is processed in the woods on leafy terrain. This is one example, which happens to be for skeletonized remains, but I have sat through many classes discussing how firefighters and paramedics can aid in preserving a crime scene, and according to the state police crime lab director in my state, they absolutely do sift through the leaves (or trash, or sand, or whatever the person was found on top of) for a reasonable circumference. If the evidence can't be accommodated and searched on site, it is removed and searched off site. I am happy to provide additional links should you so request.

Thank you. As you have mentioned, this procedure is for secreted burial sites in an effort to obtain evidence surrounding the skeletal bones,

The method proposed here includes inward clearance of the main concentration first, reversal of course outward to recover scattered items surrounding the main concentration, and safe discard of leaf litter onto a previously cleared area, followed by mapping of exposed items and, if required, excavation. The author refers to this method as the "inside-out" process for surface forensic scene processing.

A procedure for processing outdoor surface forensic scenes yielding skeletal remains among leaf litter (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_yielding_skeletal_remains_among_leaf_litter [accessed May 20, 2017].

I visited a CS in March of 2014. It was an immolation of a 19yo female. Therefore, the area was saturated with water from fire hoses as her vehicle was also set ablaze in Dec., 2013. I noticed a very small piece of fabric peeking through the soil. I gently dug a piece of fabric from the damp debris for I felt the young lady had been tied to the tree. I tossed the matted fabric, with pine bark, broken pieces of pine needles and soil, into the trunk of the car. When arriving home, I gently soaked the article in water and carefully stirred it with a wooden spoon each day. Then, the dirty water was drained and refilled the bowl with fresh water. The process took 5 days. It was a pair of ladies undergarments. Searching for information of the name brand on the tag, I discovered this item was only distributed by Avon. The evidence was turned over to FBI Agent Blount. The killers trial is set for June, 2017. It is seriously doubtful the undergarments will be used at trial. I kept a photo, if interested.

 

[Eileen730]

This is what has bothered me the most. I don't understand the silence from the families or, especially, the media. I have never seen this much media silence in a major murder investigation before. It just does not make sense.

Oh I think it does make sense.

I don't believe RL is the only person with a lawyer..

 

[Evania]

That's sad. Two young girls were brutally murdered and people are more concerned about covering up their own transgressions. Don't break the law, don't lie...and you never have to look over your shoulder.

I couldn't agree more. I for one am glad he's off the road. If an innocent person gets hit by a drunk driver then it's the family whose lives are turned upside down. The cops didn't force RL to break the law...That was his choice only. It's sad that he has had to deal with the horrifying reality that the girls were found on his property, but other than that, everything else can be boiled down to a sad series of making the wrong choices.

I can humanly understand RL's fear about being honest from the get-go. I get that. However, I wonder if they would have gone a little easier on him if he had been entirely truthful. I mean, it was a murder investigation for crying out loud, and if the victims were found on your property, the LAST thing you want to do is lie, conceal, cover up any detail. From henceforth, they view you as unreliable and untrustworthy, and consequently the public follows suit.

To be clear though, I do believe he is innocent in regards to the murder. IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dotr]

https://www.google.ca/search?q=crim...ev72zgDfp7AEdiU91sQTK--&imgrc=Ov1nMA6d58-1nM:

The site in Seven Bridges Park where hunters found the decomposed bodies

http://www.thegazette.com/2012/12/10/officials-leave-bremer-county-park-where-bodies-were-found

​

 

[Shiressleuth]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_yielding_skeletal_remains_among_leaf_litter
This is how a crime scene is processed in the woods on leafy terrain. This is one example, which happens to be for skeletonized remains, but I have sat through many classes discussing how firefighters and paramedics can aid in preserving a crime scene, and according to the state police crime lab director in my state, they absolutely do sift through the leaves (or trash, or sand, or whatever the person was found on top of) for a reasonable circumference. If the evidence can't be accommodated and searched on site, it is removed and searched off site. I am happy to provide additional links should you so request.

That's theory and not fact regarding what happened in this case. If bags of leaves were taken away I think there would be reports of that somewhere. If there isn't then it has to remain theory much like the COD. I remember seeing the photos of the CS and I think it is in this thread when it was discussed before. Each viewer can make up their own mind about what they see.

Eta I see dotr had just posted a link to CS' s for both the iowa girls and delphi girls.

 

[her]

The folks who processed the crime scene would have bagged and removed all leaves etc. from the immediate area the girls were found as well as any secondary areas suspected of being involved. So IMO IF the image of the flowers was on the precise spot they were found, then the leaves got blown back onto that area, is the only explanation I have for that. I also can't find any pictures online purporting to be the precise location of the CS, just pics of the general location. Please share links?

If I recall correctly early interviews with RL stating it was not a disturbed scene. Precise to be exact was what he said. Leaves did not show to be bagged up at all.

 

[midwestseeker]

That's sad. Two young girls were brutally murdered and people are more concerned about covering up their own transgressions. Don't break the law, don't lie...and you never have to look over your shoulder.

Sad...sure! Unfortunately, it is also a very real possibility. If you are sitting at home and you know that was you and you were not supposed to be on the bridge but also know you had nothing to do with this case, you would at least strongly consider keeping quiet. None of us are perfect.

 

[Shiressleuth]

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://fox59.com/2017/02/17/delphi-community-prepares-to-say-goodbye-to-teen-girls/

“We’re looking at every stone and looking to turn over every stone that we can, that is reasonable,” he said during the broadcast.
http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/carroll...investigation-says-dna-evidence-fast-tracked/

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://cbs4indy.com/2017/02/17/police-tracking-down-tips-to-find-who-killed-delphi-teenagers/ Repeat of the Fox59 quote

I think this quote of no stone or leaf unturned was metaphorical but I do also believe a thorough search in and under those leaves at the CS was also undertaken as well as in and around the creek area in general.

 

[eastcoasterinco]

If I recall correctly early interviews with RL stating it was not a disturbed scene. Precise to be exact was what he said. Leaves did not show to be bagged up at all.

I believe he said it was "pristine" which could mean clean (no blood no mess?) or pristine as in untouched. IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MistyWaters]

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://fox59.com/2017/02/17/delphi-community-prepares-to-say-goodbye-to-teen-girls/

“We’re looking at every stone and looking to turn over every stone that we can, that is reasonable,” he said during the broadcast.
http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/carroll...investigation-says-dna-evidence-fast-tracked/

“We have to look at everybody. We are going through lists; people on that were on the trails, neighborhood watch, and social media. We are doing it all. We are making sure that we uncover every leaf that we can,” said Sgt. Kim Riley with Indiana State Police.
http://cbs4indy.com/2017/02/17/police-tracking-down-tips-to-find-who-killed-delphi-teenagers/ Repeat of the Fox59 quote

If I recall correctly, the comment pertained to investigation of the crime scene. Did you notice the presence of dozens of parked vehicles while the crime scene was being processed, as shown by media helicopter? Obviously they were there to process the crime scene and area which causes leaf disturbance. Photos of how it appeared after they departed and after the blockades were removed, whether the crime scene tape was still up or not, do not prove the area was undisturbed.

Neither are media allowed to hover over during the time LE and other experts are working a crime scene. But they gave us a clue as to the number of vehicles which indicates far more than an officer or two quickly removing the bodies of the victims and departing the scene, leaving it essentially untouched.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe he said it was "pristine" which could mean clean (no blood no mess?) or pristine as in untouched. IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it reasonable that LE would depart a crime scene where two children were murdered and leave all sorts of evidence of a vicious confrontation behind, even if it had occurred?

 

[Jethro4WS]

Yes, I understand now.

Even the idea of an orientation with respect to North/South or even if the bodies were sort up in a strange sort of proximity to one another could be "staging".
Again, I sort of always thought staging had to deal with a sexual innuendo. That's why I learn so much from this site.

Steleheart...
i have voiced this often here. Why didn't LE tell us how the deaths occurred? There was a case with a woman named Missy, "Terry" Beavers. They caught her killer on a camera wielding a hammer. They said this hammer contributed to her death.

Don't you think that the public knew the cause of death it would help the investigation?

again, I have posted this a lot. This site is amazing, but people here feel that LE would be compromising the investigation if they revealed the cause of deaths.

Still, I feel like if they posted it in the Missy Beavers case, why NOT here?

Thanks for your insight.

LE in the Missy Bevers case refuses to disclose the cause of death, and the mechanism of death. They consider it to their strategic advantage to keep that to themselves.

The media and people on SM, including this web site, had taken the words from the second and third search warrants issued in that case that only described injuries and items that would be consistent with causing those injuries to describe how Missy was killed. However, those two warrants were from before the autopsy on Missy Bevers occurred. The very next search warrant (and no other future warrants either) issued only hours after her autopsy no longer contained any words that could imply how Missy might have been killed. It is likely that what LE thought at the time of the second and third search warrants and what the autopsy revealed were different.

So it is absolutely untrue that LE disclosed the cause of death in the Missy Bevers case.

 

[Wild Rose]

Anybody any good at finding out if there were any auctions going on in or near Carroll County beginning week of Feb 8th thru Feb 15th.

I haven't found much luck researching....maybe somebody is better at this?

Thanks

great idea! Wonder if there were any hunting dog club shows or field events if he was all in camo.