IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #59

[expatCanada]

I think so too.

Maybe someone can clarify but in the US I don't believe DNA samples can be obtained without definite cause.

If so, just a hypothetical.... LE may have a lead that hasn't been furthered at this time because of refusal of the swab. Now they're awaiting July 1st, meanwhile keeping a watchful eye on the suspect. If so, that'd be terrific, they get a DNA swab upon an arrest for any felony, regardless if it was a different matter.




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http://www.dnasaves.org/us-dna-laws/

 

[Shiressleuth]

According to what was posted upstream, the bill requires a felony in order to be swabbed. JMO...I'm not sure a minor traffic offense would qualify, unless there was another law broken at the same time. I.E. probation violation, drug possession, weapons charge, etc that was found during the traffic stop. JMO.

Ok is suspicion of murder enough to arrest and take a dna swab? If they have a suspect but his dna is not on file, for example someone may have called in a tip so can they subpoena or arrest on a tip and then take a swab? Surely it would be negligent if they had a suspect but his dna wasn't on file and they had to wait for an offence to be committed. What if they murdered again in the interim? If they have a suspect, they must be able to arrest and take a swab now right? Because they have already taken swabs from some people as we have already heard.

 

[expatCanada]

Ok is suspicion of murder enough to arrest and take a dna swab? If they have a suspect but his dna is not on file, for example someone may have called in a tip so can they subpoena or arrest on a tip and then take a swab? Surely it would be negligent if they had a suspect but his dna wasn't on file and they had to wait for an offence to be committed. What if they murdered again in the interim? If they have a suspect, they must be able to arrest and take a swab now right? Because they have already taken swabs from some people as we have already heard.

No. Not in Indiana and Iowa either for that matter. Indiana's 'new' law doesn't become law until this summer. Voluntary only.

 

[mtnlites]

Well....just hypothetically speaking, what would be illegal about picking up a cigarette butt or a paper cup that someone leaves behind and testing that? Seems legit to me.

They do that on "Law and Order" all the time and THOSE people don't get in trouble for it. So it must be legal.

 

[mtnlites]

As far fetched as this sounds, you know what I'd like to see? A weekend in Delphi where people go and *volunteer* to give a bucal swap sample, and they get a "I swabbed" sticker to wear on their shirts, just like when you give blood. First, it would raise awareness, and second, it might produce something if their was a familial link....

Wild, I know, but I would love to see this!

They have actually done this in some places. I recall one case where LE sat right outside the local grocery store and swabbed everyone who entered (as long as they agreed). It worked.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Well....just hypothetically speaking, what would be illegal about picking up a cigarette butt or a paper cup that someone leaves behind and testing that? Seems legit to me.

Especially if they are a suspect in a double child homicide. That's enough of a felony and would give probable cause surely? Why wait till 1 July this guys needs to be in jail now.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Well....just hypothetically speaking, what would be illegal about picking up a cigarette butt or a paper cup that someone leaves behind and testing that? Seems legit to me.

Nothing illegal about picking up something discarded, and it's not uncommon for LE to use this method.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/LegalCenter/story?id=3521962

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/20...e-for-grabs/sU12MtVLkoypL1qu2iF6IL/story.html

http://www.silive.com/westshore/index.ssf/2015/06/cop_snatched_cup_with_crupis_d.html

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[Shiressleuth]

No. Not in Indiana and Iowa either for that matter. Indiana's 'new' law doesn't become law until this summer. Voluntary only.

Well that's crazy. So someone commits murder and LE cannot arrest on suspicion ?

 

[expatCanada]

Well that's crazy. So someone commits murder and LE cannot arrest on suspicion ?

Arrest? Yes, but DNA cannot be taken until conviction.
ETA: See post #511 where it explains what states can do what. Indiana is NOW playing catchup after this tragic case.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Arrest? Yes, but DNA cannot be taken until conviction.
ETA: See post #511 where it explains what states can do what. Indiana is NOW playing catchup after this tragic case.

If it turns out this is a SK he will have to be tried in each State he committed a murder or murders in so it could be a long process but at least he would be in custody. It will be interesting to see who we have been discussing and how they got his DNA.

 

[Jennifer17]

If it turns out this is a SK he will have to be tried in each State he committed a murder or murders in so it could be a long process but at least he would be in custody. It will be interesting to see who we have been discussing and how they got his DNA.

Wouldn't he be jailed for the first one that he was found guilty of and would be taken from jail for the following trials?

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Ok is suspicion of murder enough to arrest and take a dna swab? If they have a suspect but his dna is not on file, for example someone may have called in a tip so can they subpoena or arrest on a tip and then take a swab? Surely it would be negligent if they had a suspect but his dna wasn't on file and they had to wait for an offence to be committed. What if they murdered again in the interim? If they have a suspect, they must be able to arrest and take a swab now right? Because they have already taken swabs from some people as we have already heard.

Not in the US... 4th amendment protection against illegal search and seizure. LE cannot arrest, or even search, based on mere "suspicion." They must have probable cause, an objective reason and evidence, to believe they will find evidence related to the crime and present that to a judge for approval [ie, search warrant] before a search can be executed. They even have to list on the warrant the evidence they expect to find.
Taking a DNA swab involuntarily requires the same showing of probable cause.

Is a tip sufficient probable cause? I would think it depends on the tip. Someone calling and saying "you should look at my neighbor" without much in the way of specifics wouldn't be enough. But a caller that says "my neighbor looks and sounds like BG and he told me he was going hiking at the bridge that morning, I saw him sharpening a knife right before he left and he came back covered in blood, and the next day shaved his moustache and asked me to look after his puppy because he was leaving town for awhile"... yeah, that would probably be sufficient cause for a search and DNA swab. [emoji6] [emoji190] [emoji4]

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[rosesfromangels]

Nothing illegal about picking up something discarded, and it's not uncommon for LE to use this method.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/LegalCenter/story?id=3521962

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/20...e-for-grabs/sU12MtVLkoypL1qu2iF6IL/story.html

http://www.silive.com/westshore/index.ssf/2015/06/cop_snatched_cup_with_crupis_d.html

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GitR done!!!

 

[jca91180]

I don't think they do, otherwise we'd have an arrest.

I don't think they do, either, but maybe they have a felon in mind and by getting his DNA they could confirm or deny involvement? Trying to stay positive!!


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[her]

As far fetched as this sounds, you know what I'd like to see? A weekend in Delphi where people go and *volunteer* to give a bucal swap sample, and they get a "I swabbed" sticker to wear on their shirts, just like when you give blood. First, it would raise awareness, and second, it might produce something if their was a familial link....

Wild, I know, but I would love to see this!

Oh the police state this could cause and privacy issues. It would work out of pure ostracism of people who didn't comply with "voluntary spit samples". You know with human nature being what it it is even on a forum posting.

 

[Jabarn]

I don't think they do, either, but maybe they have a felon in mind and by getting his DNA they could confirm or deny involvement? Trying to stay positive!!


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Something to consider is there is a DNA match to another crime, where no suspect has been identified.

Another aspect to consider is familial DNA, where the suspect could possibly be rooted out based on family members having recorded DNA profiles.

The technology available to catch those who leave DNA behind is amazing, and I agree with many of you, it doesn't only have to come from bodily emissions during a rape.

Still rooting for the girls in Delphi, and their killer to be caught. Thanks to all of you who haven't given up on this case.

 

[iscaremyself]

Arrest? Yes, but DNA cannot be taken until conviction.
ETA: See post #511 where it explains what states can do what. Indiana is NOW playing catchup after this tragic case.

in calif it's upon arrest..you walk into booking they swab your cheek

 

[0101ABA]

Mod note: Numerous posts that have attempted to divide the members of this thread into cliques have been removed. Cliques will not be tolerated. Cliques steer the attention away from the purpose of the thread...these threads are NOT about you, me, or "us," they are about justice for Abby & Libby. Cliques are also exclusionary and they stifle discussion. Everyone is welcome here at Websleuths and the differing of opinions is one of the things that makes this site so great. Please humor me a bit on this one, as it's just my own opinion, but cliques remind me of high school, before we (collectively) began to understand that there are a ton of interesting people in the world, and our fear of differing opinions unnecessarily limits us from experiencing life and the opportunities it has to offer. Cliques are tiresome and the disrespect that results from them serves no purpose and in no way contributes to the greater good.

It is my hope that this gets the message across. There are many great posters here and no matter what opinion we may hold on who we feel is responsible (or not), we all are here for Abby and Libby and want to see the right people arrested and prosecuted.

 

[Peace777]

Well....just hypothetically speaking, what would be illegal about picking up a cigarette butt or a paper cup that someone leaves behind and testing that? Seems legit to me.

Yes I've seen them do it on real crime shows

 

[her]

Something to consider is there is a DNA match to another crime, where no suspect has been identified.

Another aspect to consider is familial DNA, where the suspect could possibly be rooted out based on family members having recorded DNA profiles.

The technology available to catch those who leave DNA behind is amazing, and I agree with many of you, it doesn't only have to come from bodily emissions during a rape.

Still rooting for the girls in Delphi, and their killer to be caught. Thanks to all of you who haven't given up on this case.

Bolted by me I never thought about that and yet so obvious thanks. My brain is melting on burn out. I think I need to revisit the basics in the beginning of this case.