IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #61

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eastcoasterinco said:
Welcome! Thank you for such a thoughtful post. I agree with just about everything you're saying, my hunches are similar to yours, especially about the serial killer theory. It all happened far too quickly for me to think this is a first timer or novice, unfortunately.

I also believe BG and any other potential suspects have fled Delphi, which is why no one has identified him yet. MOO. And this would work well with your trucker theory - someone who can slip in and out of Delphi and the surrounding area.

I just don't buy into the theory that BG knew the girls or relatives of the girls simply because we don't have anything concrete to back that up (someone please correct me if I'm wrong there!) and i would be surprised that no one has called in a tip on BG if he was/is a local. I understand there are a lot of reasons someone may not come forward to ID him, but I think LE would have found him by now if he was/is local regardless of a tip because he'd likely work/live/shop/see doctors etc. in the area.

I actually haven't read anything regarding the positions of the bodies, and I may simply have missed that, but if you know of a MSM article that mentions that topic please share it! If you dont, there's no need to respond to that - don't want you to get in trouble with the mods. But worth asking! :)


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Click to expand...

Thank you! It seems like we are on the same page. I definitely agree with your points about BG not being local, It would be a much simpler case if it were so, unfortunately. Somebody out there knows who he his, perhaps that somebody just isn't in Delphi.

BBM: True Crime Garage talked about it in their podcast on Delphi, it sounded pretty solid. I can't quite find a MSM source at the moment, so I edited my post. I do not want to rock the boat or spread misinformation!
 
Hi, everyone! I haven't followed Abigail and Liberty's cases for awhile. I had to step away because I was so angry! I have searched but haven't found an answer to my current question. Have causes of death been revealed by law enforcement?
 
MotherOcean said:
Hi, everyone! I haven't followed Abigail and Liberty's cases for awhile. I had to step away because I was so angry! I have searched but haven't found an answer to my current question. Have causes of death been revealed by law enforcement?
Click to expand...

No, COD has not been released.
 
Sugarshine said:
I've been lurking these threads a lot, and I feel like I should post. "longtime listener, First time caller" kind of deal.
(I'd like to preface that ALL of this is just my thoughts and opinions)

After going over what information we have, I really doubt the RL angle. While their bodies were found on the edge of his property, not much else really ties him to anything. It appears to be a fairly large property, and far out of the way from his house. While we can't discount anything, I highly doubt he is BG. He doesn't fit the description and I personally believe his alibi, while a little odd, is solid.

To me, BG overwhelmingly seems like a serial killer. The crime seems too streamlined to be a novice, despite his few mistakes. Despite the very rough timeline, it appears that the murders could have been done in an hour, perhaps less, perhaps more. To me that seems quite quick, too quick for it to be BG's first time. I believe the murders were both premeditated and random. He was there for a dark reason, and the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time. While we can only speculate on the motive, What if there simply was no motive? as dark as that is, it would gel with the serial killer theory. The gun theory, while interesting and definitely plausible is too hard to confirm or deny. He most definitely had a weapon of some sort, but we do not know enough to determine what that was.

If BG was a local to Delphi, or related/known to the girls as some have speculated, I firmly believe the wheels of justice in this case would be turning quicker. Perhaps he was a local to Delphi at some point, but I believe a decent outdoorsman could get a sense for the area in a fair amount of time. As cliche as this sounds, I strongly suspect he is a trucker or in the transportation industry. Given that many jobs in that industry aren't 9-5, It would put him available in the time frame for the murders. (working night shift, off the clock hours between deliveries, etc). Even if he wasn't sent to Delphi directly, Delphi is only 30 mins from Lafayette, and an hour and 20 from Indianapolis. This may sound like I'm reaching a little, but if BG was a trucker or involved in the transportation industry, BG could have the advantage of travelling to many different parts of the midwest, perhaps even larger swathes of the U.S. If BG has killed before, this would make connecting cases significantly harder and far less obvious.

I'm sure this stat gets thrown around too much around here, but... "according to [FONT=&]John Douglas, a former chief of the FBI’s Elite Serial Crime Unit and author of [/FONT]Mind Hunter[FONT=&] notes that, “A very conservative estimate is that there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United States” at any given time." While that statistic could be skewed, outdated, biased or all three, it should be considered that perhaps BG is one of them. (MOO)

This case is far too tragic to turn cold, I hope and pray LE can find Justice for Libby and Abby.

May today be the day.[/FONT]
Click to expand...

I don't believe he was a trucker. Most of those truckers who have murdered have picked up their victims at truck stops or other such stops along the interstates. However, the longer this goes the more likely I am to agree with you that BG is not from the area. Of course, if I rule out trucker I have difficulty trying to come up with a reason BG would be on the road in his occupation and dressed like he was in the photos. I am starting to believe he didn't plan this that far ahead as I don't believe he was that familiar with the trail. I believe if he was he would not have committed the murders as close to the cemetery and RL's house.

I'm not firmly convinced BG is a serial killer. BUT, if he isn't I believe he has committed sexual assaults, probably on other children, before and now he has escalated. If this is his first murder then he committed sexual assaults before and that would mean there is a witness somewhere.
 
JnRyan said:
I don't believe he was a trucker. Most of those truckers who have murdered have picked up their victims at truck stops or other such stops along the interstates. However, the longer this goes the more likely I am to agree with you that BG is not from the area. Of course, if I rule out trucker I have difficulty trying to come up with a reason BG would be on the road in his occupation and dressed like he was in the photos. I am starting to believe he didn't plan this that far ahead as I don't believe he was that familiar with the trail. I believe if he was he would not have committed the murders as close to the cemetery and RL's house.

I'm not firmly convinced BG is a serial killer. BUT, if he isn't I believe he has committed sexual assaults, probably on other children, before and now he has escalated. If this is his first murder then he committed sexual assaults before and that would mean there is a witness somewhere.
Click to expand...

Maybe not a long haul trucker but more of a delivery guy, or a tradesman/landscaper who came to Delphi to do a quote for business or work on a jobsite? IMO BG is unlikely to be an 'office worker' or 9 to 5 type of guy--given the way he was dressed and the time of day he was on the trails. He might have his own business that brings him into Delphi on occasion.

If BG isn't a serial killer, then I'm most convinced that he must have a history of inappropriate or criminal behaviour, such as stalking, *advertiser censored*, exposure, using prostitutes, rapist, torturing animals, arson etc... It doesn't seem possible that a 'normal' decent person could suddenly abduct and kill two girls--unless drugs or a mental illness is involved. Usually there is some type of escalation in criminal behaviour leading up to murder. Consider the Canadian case of Karla Homolka/Paul Bernardo. He was the Scarborough Rapist before he was arrested for the murders of two teen girls in Ontario.
 
Sugarshine said:
<snipped>
I'm sure this stat gets thrown around too much around here, but... "according to [FONT=&amp]John Douglas, a former chief of the FBI&#8217;s Elite Serial Crime Unit and author of [/FONT]Mind Hunter[FONT=&amp] notes that, &#8220;A very conservative estimate is that there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in [/FONT]
Click to expand...

IMO, it doesn't get tossed out enough. While the evidence seemed heavy after the press conference, and someone would turn this guy in, over time, the investigation seems to have stalled. I know in the early days there was some talk of an official FBI profile of the suspect. Why hasn't it been released?

Btw, agree the serial killer angle should be examined thoroughly, along with men known peripherally to the girls.
 
What were the girls doing all day long before they were dropped off at the bridge? Did they go to the local pizza place for lunch? Did they go to the gas station and rent a Redbox movie? Did they walk or bike on the highway or around town? Did anyone visit the house: delivery man, handyman, meter reader? Did they spend the previous night together at Libby's house? At Abby's house? Who might have visited someone else in the house, driven past the house, seen the two girls together and taken note? Followed them? Stalked them?


<modsnip>
 
Sugarshine said:
I've been lurking these threads a lot, and I feel like I should post. "longtime listener, First time caller" kind of deal.
(I'd like to preface that ALL of this is just my thoughts and opinions)

After going over what information we have, I really doubt the RL angle. While their bodies were found on the edge of his property, not much else really ties him to anything. It appears to be a fairly large property, and far out of the way from his house. While we can't discount anything, I highly doubt he is BG. He doesn't fit the description and I personally believe his alibi, while a little odd, is solid.

To me, BG overwhelmingly seems like a serial killer. The crime seems too streamlined to be a novice, despite his few mistakes. Despite the very rough timeline, it appears that the murders could have been done in an hour, perhaps less, perhaps more. To me that seems quite quick, too quick for it to be BG's first time. I believe the murders were both premeditated and random. He was there for a dark reason, and the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time. While we can only speculate on the motive, What if there simply was no motive? as dark as that is, it would gel with the serial killer theory. The gun theory, while interesting and definitely plausible is too hard to confirm or deny. He most definitely had a weapon of some sort, but we do not know enough to determine what that was.

If BG was a local to Delphi, or related/known to the girls as some have speculated, I firmly believe the wheels of justice in this case would be turning quicker. Perhaps he was a local to Delphi at some point, but I believe a decent outdoorsman could get a sense for the area in a fair amount of time. As cliche as this sounds, I strongly suspect he is a trucker or in the transportation industry. Given that many jobs in that industry aren't 9-5, It would put him available in the time frame for the murders. (working night shift, off the clock hours between deliveries, etc). Even if he wasn't sent to Delphi directly, Delphi is only 30 mins from Lafayette, and an hour and 20 from Indianapolis. This may sound like I'm reaching a little, but if BG was a trucker or involved in the transportation industry, BG could have the advantage of travelling to many different parts of the midwest, perhaps even larger swathes of the U.S. If BG has killed before, this would make connecting cases significantly harder and far less obvious.

I'm sure this stat gets thrown around too much around here, but... "according to [FONT=&]John Douglas, a former chief of the FBI&#8217;s Elite Serial Crime Unit and author of [/FONT]Mind Hunter[FONT=&] notes that, &#8220;A very conservative estimate is that there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United States&#8221; at any given time." While that statistic could be skewed, outdated, biased or all three, it should be considered that perhaps BG is one of them. (MOO)

This case is far too tragic to turn cold, I hope and pray LE can find Justice for Libby and Abby.

May today be the day.[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Welcome to websleuths and thank you for joining us. Great post!
 
IMO - If this was a SK, why was he so confident to walk across that bridge? That bridge was so much in dis-repair. He had to have known that bridge.
 
Rott Mom said:
IMO - If this was a SK, why was he so confident to walk across that bridge? That bridge was so much in dis-repair. He had to have known that bridge.
Click to expand...

This is one reason why I believe it was a local resident, former resident, family member of a local resident, friend or acquaintance of a resident, handyman or someone who has done work for a local resident, or someone who has frequently walked, cycled, or driven though town.

And in my opinion I believe he saw the girls somewhere and they caught his eye. Then he followed them or stalked them.
 
I think the white skinny loops popping out of the top of his front jacket are the tops of white ziptie handcuffs. Police officers in riot situations wear them hanging from their belts. There's plenty of photos on the Internet of these things.
Henry2326 said:
Hi- IMO, I'm skeptical of a gun. See the pics I posted tonight on the image thread that demonstrate a 9mm gun in the outside pocket of various jacket styles as compared to the BG pic. They are very very different. We couldn't find a scenario where the gun would lay in the pocket backwards....much less take it out of the pocket backwards without it tangling up in the pocket. I've worked on a theory of a concealed weapon jacket but can't find a great match.
Click to expand...
 
IceIce9 said:
This is one reason why I believe it was a local resident, former resident, family member of a local resident, friend or acquaintance of a resident, handyman or someone who has done work for a local resident, or someone who has frequently walked, cycled, or driven though town.

And in my opinion I believe he saw the girls somewhere and they caught his eye. Then he followed them or stalked them.
Click to expand...

Apologies if I posted this before. I started and stopped writing it a few times and can't remember if I ever finished and posted. I did a quick filtered search through my posts and couldn't see it, so I'm going to post it here now.

A couple of months ago, I was talking to a friend who attended a big local sporting event with her husband and son, her daughter, and her daughter's friend.

At the event, the daughter and her friend were in a shop at the arena holding jerseys up to each other and taking pictures. A guy approached the daughter, interested in her. The daughter didn't give him any information, and he eventually left.

After the event, the daughter posted her and her friend's pictures online with a hashtag related to the sporting event that they had attended.

Using the hashtag, the guy found the daughter's picture and traced her to her Facebook, Snapchat, and Instagram pages. And then he reached out to her. Because of what she posted in these spaces, he now knows&#8203; her name and age, where she goes to school, her school activities, friends, where she works, etc.

That story sent a shiver through me and made me wonder whether someone may have hunted A &/or L in a similar way.

When we've theorized here about social media, I think we've mostly guessed about a catfishing situation. But what if it was something similar to what happened to my friend's daughter. I wonder about how much someone might have been able to piece together about them given whatever they posted even innocently. If they were at some event or outing, one that might not even have been local, and caught BG's eye, then he could probably have traced them using SM content and possibly hashtags&#8203;.

The above is just my opinion.
 
Sugarshine said:
I've been lurking these threads a lot, and I feel like I should post. "longtime listener, First time caller" kind of deal.
(I'd like to preface that ALL of this is just my thoughts and opinions)

After going over what information we have, I really doubt the RL angle. While their bodies were found on the edge of his property, not much else really ties him to anything. It appears to be a fairly large property, and far out of the way from his house. While we can't discount anything, I highly doubt he is BG. He doesn't fit the description and I personally believe his alibi, while a little odd, is solid.

To me, BG overwhelmingly seems like a serial killer. The crime seems too streamlined to be a novice, despite his few mistakes. Despite the very rough timeline, it appears that the murders could have been done in an hour, perhaps less, perhaps more. To me that seems quite quick, too quick for it to be BG's first time. I believe the murders were both premeditated and random. He was there for a dark reason, and the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time. While we can only speculate on the motive, What if there simply was no motive? as dark as that is, it would gel with the serial killer theory. The gun theory, while interesting and definitely plausible is too hard to confirm or deny. He most definitely had a weapon of some sort, but we do not know enough to determine what that was.

If BG was a local to Delphi, or related/known to the girls as some have speculated, I firmly believe the wheels of justice in this case would be turning quicker. Perhaps he was a local to Delphi at some point, but I believe a decent outdoorsman could get a sense for the area in a fair amount of time. As cliche as this sounds, I strongly suspect he is a trucker or in the transportation industry. Given that many jobs in that industry aren't 9-5, It would put him available in the time frame for the murders. (working night shift, off the clock hours between deliveries, etc). Even if he wasn't sent to Delphi directly, Delphi is only 30 mins from Lafayette, and an hour and 20 from Indianapolis. This may sound like I'm reaching a little, but if BG was a trucker or involved in the transportation industry, BG could have the advantage of travelling to many different parts of the midwest, perhaps even larger swathes of the U.S. If BG has killed before, this would make connecting cases significantly harder and far less obvious.

I'm sure this stat gets thrown around too much around here, but... "according to [FONT=&amp]John Douglas, a former chief of the FBI’s Elite Serial Crime Unit and author of [/FONT]Mind Hunter[FONT=&amp] notes that, “A very conservative estimate is that there are between 25 and 50 active serial killers in the United States” at any given time." While that statistic could be skewed, outdated, biased or all three, it should be considered that perhaps BG is one of them. (MOO)

This case is far too tragic to turn cold, I hope and pray LE can find Justice for Libby and Abby.

May today be the day.[/FONT]
Click to expand...

RL got caught up in all this, unwittingly. MOO is he should have kept his mouth shut, but it's all in the past, now.

Initially, I was leaning toward SK, but now am wondering if this was more of a planned "hit" of some sort or another. There is plenty we have to work on, to work that angle, and judging by other recent crimes going back a few years before the murders, it would appear that Carroll County has a major drug problem.

Welcome to the sleuthing on this case!
 
Sugarshine said:
Thank you! It seems like we are on the same page. I definitely agree with your points about BG not being local, It would be a much simpler case if it were so, unfortunately. Somebody out there knows who he his, perhaps that somebody just isn't in Delphi.

BBM: True Crime Garage talked about it in their podcast on Delphi, it sounded pretty solid. I can't quite find a MSM source at the moment, so I edited my post. I do not want to rock the boat or spread misinformation!
Click to expand...

:Welcome1: Sugarshine!

Not to worry. Nothing has been released by LE or appears in MSM regarding position of the bodies. The only thing said by LE was a reference to how "the bodies were found" which led them to conclude it was homicide. This has been interpreted by some in different ways and could include posing, staging, condition, positioning / orientation, etc.

IMO without further information everything else is assumption. I personally believe that LE was being purposely vague to avoid people misinterpreting and starting rumors - JMO

http://people.com/crime/abigail-williams-liberty-german-slain-indiana-teens-5-things/

<snip>
"While police initially did not suspect foul play in the girls&#8217; disappearance, on Tuesday they said their deaths were homicides.

&#8220;We are investigating this as a crime scene,&#8221; Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley said at a press conference last Tuesday, adding that the &#8220;way the bodies were found&#8221; led them to believe the girls were killed. "
 
Maplesyrup said:
There was speculation that someone picked the one girl up from PA and deposited her body near the Berlin reservoir. The other girl went missing from the Alliance, OH area. Her remains were found very near the first girl. It would seem to me that the same person killed both girls. There was speculation otherwise but what are the odds of two teen girls remains turning up THAT close together if separate unrelated killers were involved? The crimes are still unsolved. IMO
Click to expand...

JMO...

(Had to step back after the plea deal the other week made by the piece of work that murdered Meagan. Then real life took over. Nice to be back.)

For what it's worth, Beaver, PA and Alliance, OH are not very far away from each other...

JMO.
 
tomvansac said:
I think the white skinny loops popping out of the top of his front jacket are the tops of white ziptie handcuffs. Police officers in riot situations wear them hanging from their belts. There's plenty of photos on the Internet of these things.
Click to expand...

Hi tomvansac- Good idea....they definitely make the design that we see. But the experts over on the image board show a reflection coming from a small part of the white loop. The one's I see online appear to be 100% plastic so they probably don't reflect light. Any ideas of a different kind?
 
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