IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

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Not sure about military, but he's a hunter, in my book.

Look at what this guy did. One man. Got control of two girls. Marched them to their deaths.

He definitely was 'hunting', that day.

JMO

A good number of my military friends were hunters. A few of them were actually stealthy. Even into our 50's.

I hear that, "Down the hill", and I want them to run. Get away from this unhealthy being. It is not human. It is a hunter. And it is still out there!
 
A good number of my military friends were hunters. A few of them were actually stealthy. Even into our 50's.

I hear that, "Down the hill", and I want them to run. Get away from this unhealthy being. It is not human. It is a hunter. And it is still out there!
Yes, my exboyfriend is a sniper in the Marine Corps. Guess where they have him do his training.... hunting! You can't hunt humans for practice, right? So they have him do the next best thing.

I think this dude is exmilitary (although I hope not. He doesn't deserve to have that badge of honor). But regardless, he is definitely an extreme hunter in some way or another. This seems to be well laid plans that he executed as he expected.

Now let's hope our sweet girls blow that plan sky high with something he didn't account for... technology with today's youth. Bring him down, girls! Show this coward who's boss, after all.

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He did not have to control the random comings and goings of others. He lucked out. No one was around.

He could not have known that beforehand.

That was the discussion point.

He could not control the random comings and going of others.

Therefore, imo, he would NOT risk marching them through the woods and across the creek...in broad daylight.

Don't believe it happened.

Your opinion may be different, but it is valued.

That's the best thing about this forum.

We have the privilege of reading different thoughts and ideas instead of just our own.

Thank you...
 
Thanks for asking, but I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

I believe getting them quickly off the bridge into a waiting vehicle did not pose near the risk of being seen, as that of marching them through the woods and through the creek.

You disagree. I have a pretty good idea we're not going to convince each other.

Regarding the vehicle, I believe he had his car parked on that private road off the south end of the bridge.

Personally, it is my belief he knew for certain (perhaps even engineered) that the girls were going to be at that precise location on the bridge.

He planned his attack methodically. He left nothing to chance, imo.

Some people have theorized that maybe he entered the bridge on the south end, and then turned around.

I've wondered as well, because that would have lessened the amount of time and distance for him on that rickety bridge.

A distinct advantage for him. Who would want to risk falling, or breaking a limb if you didn't have to?

I see him as minimizing every risk possible.

However, if he did venture all the way across from the north end, that would simply tell me he's been there before, and falling wasn't a big concern.

For him to park his car on the south end and enter the bridge from the north end would not be a big deal for me either.

Would just mean he got there early to get all his ducks in a row...

All my opinion only...
I didn't say I disagree. I said I was originally in the vehicle camp and only changed my view after seeing the locked gate. If gate wasn't locked then the vehicle theory is a possibility as too the possibility of crossing the creek imo. I do believe he had a vehicle. Just not sure where it was parked, how/if it was used and why traffic and cctv have not revealed it and caught him.
 
I didn't say I disagree. I said I was originally in the vehicle camp and only changed my view after seeing the locked gate. If gate wasn't locked then the vehicle theory is a possibility as too the possibility of crossing the creek imo. I do believe he had a vehicle. Just not sure where it was parked, how/if it was used and why traffic and cctv have not revealed it and caught him.

Sorry! I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification...
 
To prove a negative is impossible. For example, LE has also not stated that these two girls were abducted by Aliens. Do I have a link to an article where LE states absolutely that Abigail and Libby were NOT abducted by Aliens? No. But the fact that LE has never even mentioned Alien abduction, or a vehicle being involved in the abduction, kind of says it all...

I think it's important to go by what LE has stated--not by wild speculation that just because LE hasn't made clear that Libby and Abigail were not abducted by Aliens, or not abducted by way of a vehicle, then somehow these theories are then true--as in true by virtue of the fact that the theories have not been explicitly negated.

LE doesn't have time to debunk every wacky theory. They've given us a lot of information--that it would seem useful to be guided by.

And the last in depth interview given by LE explained that the terrain the girls were on to get where they died was rough. The description given was a hike through the wooded areas and across deer creek, on foot.

I'm not sure what more proof you would need.

Respectfully, IMO this analogy has no basis in reality. I personally doubt there was a vehicle involved in the actual crime, but certainly we can't compare the two sceneries that have been presented here. I think everyone here understands the concept of not being able to prove a negative - without any further explanation or far-fetched comparisons. Additionally, it wouldn't even be proving a negative since you were asked to show where it was stated that a vehicle was not involved. That is not a negative. That is asking for proof of a statement being made, which would not be a negative.

Further, in your earlier post, you were trying to debunk the meth theory by arguing that there were no meth labs in this area. You attempted to support this idea by saying you researched and wrote a paper supporting the idea that meth labs were in places you wouldn't expect them. I'm confused as to why this information about your paper was necessary since it obviously supported the other side of the argument. IMO, I agree that it is highly unlikely that a meth lab was involved; however, I would really like to understand how you felt your argument supported this.


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He could not have known that beforehand.

That was the discussion point.

He could not control the random comings and going of others.

Therefore, imo, he would NOT risk marching them through the woods and across the creek...in broad daylight.

Don't believe it happened.

Your opinion may be different, but it is valued.

That's the best thing about this forum.

We have the privilege of reading different thoughts and ideas instead of just our own.

Thank you...
We all want the same thing. This predator off the streets. Hes not human.
Im afraid this case will go cold. He could be anywhere now.
 
It would be great if Trish had Jim Clemente on her show. He would have some insight into the brain of this sick twisted *advertiser censored*.
 
I'm not sure where they were.I thought the road only ran under the bridge at one point,supposedly where the old man saw the couple on the road?
Yep that's right but at the other end it goes over the creek so they could have been on the creek bank under the bridge at that north end. It would be a popular spot I would think. I'm confused and will have to check about them being seen on the road. Don't mind me.
 
I remember that video Shiressleuth. I posted a link when we were discussing the blue water bucket for RL's pretty horse. Here's the link to my post but sadly, the video is now private.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-61&p=13421100#post13421100
This is a different gate gliving, over at the south end of the bridge. But thanks for the link - I do rem that gate near the cemetery, the horse questions and what looked like an electric fence. :smile:
 
Did the witnesses who saw BG on the trails the day the girls were murdered also see the girls? Just wondering if anybody saw them before the abduction murder.
That is a very good question. I don't think we know the answer to that.
 
Yep that's right but at the other end it goes over the creek so they could have been on the creek bank under the bridge at that north end. It would be a popular spot I would think. I'm confused and will have to check about them being seen on the road. Don't mind me.
I went back over the video for verification one way or the other.It just said the old man saw a couple under the bridge,he did not specify the exact location so it's possible he could have seen the couple on the bank,road or even in the water.Therefore I've partially debunked my previous post.
 
I went back over the video for verification one way or the other.It just said the old man saw a couple under the bridge,he did not specify the exact location so it's possible he could have seen the couple on the bank,road or even in the water.Therefore I've partially debunked my previous post.
Well sleuthed and has saved me checking. Did it say where DG saw the old man? Might give us a clue if he saw him at the North end, for example.
 
It's bothering me that nobody heard anything.


I can't wrap my head around one aspect of this crime. We don't know COD. We don't know if any weapons at all were involved. We don't know if there was a vehicle used. We don't know if CS is in fact the actual CS or just a disposal site.

Regardless of all of that, whether we knew it or not, one thing I just can't come to terms with is no one hearing anything. Seeing anything we can come up with reasons as to why or why not anything would have been seen. But hearing? Is that spot so isolated that someone screaming for their life would no be heard? How do you keep 2 teenage girls from making a single peep? I don't mean to be graphic here I really don't, but someone had to die first didn't they? It's horrible to think about and makes me sick and i feel terrible for even thinking it.

How do you kill someone in front of another person and they don't then start to scream. Or you yourself start to scream realizing what is coming. What sort of control must you have. This whole crime just, smells funny. Smells seasoned. Practiced. Ugh.

I have my theories, but they are just that. Pure speculation. I just have a hard time with understanding a lot about this case, and it could very well be because we just don't know. But seeing these pictures and with what we do know about time frames...perhaps I need a break from this case. My mind is thoroughly sore from trying to understand.


Moo.

Another possible answer is that there are two perps. One to control each girl.
 
Sorry! I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification...

No prob. Re the random comings and goings-that end of the bridge is strictly private property so unlikely for the public to be wandering around far from the bridge, as they would be trespassing. I think BG knew how secluded that area was and is why he chose it for the abduction. He must have known the snow birds were absent too imo.
 
Whats the visibility like in those trees? Like I can see the bodies were left 300ft/100m from the end of the bridge. I know from my own experiences in the bush that your perception of the density of the trees in person vs captured in video or stills is quite different. Like it looks quite monotone and sparse enough that it'd be easy to spot people at that distance, especially from up high, but did he have "privacy" in amongst those trees? Like if someone got, say 60ft/20m would they be able to catch glimpses but not see them unobscured? Or would it be clear to see what was happening?

After spending a lot of time in the woods, IMO, we're not very perceptive, especially when it comes to things we're not looking for. In addition, it really is difficult to see things through trees. There's always movement going on in the woods, even after the leaves have fallen; branches moving, fallen leaves blowing, water rushing, etc. To someone not looking for people, I think someone walking, especially at a distance would blend in with the movement and just register as static/noise. There would be breaks as people moved behind obstacles (trees, rocks, bends, etc), so at quick glance, they may not be visible.

Looking at the map, it looks as though the bridge would have been the best possible place to see BG and the girls if the timing was right. But it's likely the worst place to take your eyes off of your path. I also don't know how common it is for trail walkers to meander off the trail and down the creek. If it's fairly common, it might not have registered even if someone was spotted. The people under the bridge were likely spotted because of proximity.

From where on the Delphi Historic trail would the killer have most likely first spotted the girls. He had to be on the trail, not below at the point he crosses. Is it more likely that this was pure hapchance, or could he have been lurking for some time?

What entrance to the trail might he have been coming from? He could have back-tracked, but that bridge is not an easy cross, so what was he doing, where might he have been on the trail, just before he zeroed in on the girls?

Snipped for space- I think BG could have been a decent ways away and heard a car door shut. For some reason, that sound seems to travel well through the woods (it also makes the roosting turkeys gobble). And being teenage girls, it's quite possible they could have been talking or laughing and been heard by someone in the distance. I don't think he needed to be on the trail at all to hear or see them.

I'm interested in the Hoosier Harvestore/U-store. I believe the home marked as the Harvestore might be the office, but I believe the long metal building next to the shorter building about midway between the Nature Preserve marker and 25 is likely where things are stored. I'd be interested to know from locals if this is correct, and if so, how much traffic it gets on a daily basis. It would be easy to see from the buildings to the pull off/ parking area by the trail.

It's bothering me that nobody heard anything.


I can't wrap my head around one aspect of this crime. We don't know COD. We don't know if any weapons at all were involved. We don't know if there was a vehicle used. We don't know if CS is in fact the actual CS or just a disposal site.

Regardless of all of that, whether we knew it or not, one thing I just can't come to terms with is no one hearing anything. Seeing anything we can come up with reasons as to why or why not anything would have been seen. But hearing? Is that spot so isolated that someone screaming for their life would no be heard? How do you keep 2 teenage girls from making a single peep? I don't mean to be graphic here I really don't, but someone had to die first didn't they? It's horrible to think about and makes me sick and i feel terrible for even thinking it.

How do you kill someone in front of another person and they don't then start to scream. Or you yourself start to scream realizing what is coming. What sort of control must you have. This whole crime just, smells funny. Smells seasoned. Practiced. Ugh.

I have my theories, but they are just that. Pure speculation. I just have a hard time with understanding a lot about this case, and it could very well be because we just don't know. But seeing these pictures and with what we do know about time frames...perhaps I need a break from this case. My mind is thoroughly sore from trying to understand.


Moo.

While I can't answer with any certainty, my guess is someone screaming might not even be noticed, as sad as I am to say that. Depending on how far away the closest people were to where the girls were killed, it may have been hard to hear anyways. There appears to be a bend in the creek near the CS that might absorb some sound or cause it not to travel well towards the bridge. I'm sure there was also the sound of the creek.

Or someone did hear something and just hasn't made it known to the public.

Or there was no screaming at all. Shock and terror can make people do unpredictable things, like freezing instead of running, staring wide eyed instead of reacting, quietly sobbing instead of screaming.
 
These two maps show diameters of .25 miles and .5 miles centered around Libby's last known location (L) on the High Bridge, the third platform counted from the NW end of the bridge. The white distance bars all correspond to the diameters and are all either .25 miles long (first map) or .5 miles long (second map).

This chart calculates walking distances and minutes based on three categories or pace, fast, moderate or easy. I am only showing the .25 miles diameter/ .5miles diameter on the maps. All other distances can be easily multiplied. Hope it helps:


attachment.php


Map 1-- .25 miles diameter



Map 2-- .5 miles diameter



TY Nin. Very useful. So it is not even 1/4 of a mile (440 yards) from the south end of the bridge to the rear boundary of the cemetery and even less to the CS. Allowing for the terrain, how long to get to the CS from the south end of the bridge on foot including crossing the creek ? 10-15 minutes perhaps?
 
Q: anyone have any thoughts on what police meant early on by a "twist" in this case?
only thing I can think of is if this comment was made prior to police releasing photos & audio of perp. If so, that might have been the "twist". Thoughts?
 
Well sleuthed and has saved me checking. Did it say where DG saw the old man? Might give us a clue if he saw him at the North end, for example.
Best I can make of it is DG went towards the bridge,talked to the old man who reported the couple,then went back the other way.It sounds like DG didn't cross the bridge to me,but that's open for interpretation as it's mentioned twice how it played out.
 
Q: anyone have any thoughts on what police meant early on by a "twist" in this case?
only thing I can think of is if this comment was made prior to police releasing photos & audio of perp. If so, that might have been the "twist". Thoughts?

If this was a *movie*, my twist would be the killer taking Libby's phone not knowing it is recording and then losing the phone during a fight with one of the victims..

-Nin
 
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