IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

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It would be really interesting to see a debunking video by GH as to weather the girls were taken away in a car and brought back or walked across the water to where they were found.
 
I did find an excellent map that someone posted to Websleuths. I won't copy it here, because I'm not sure that's allowed, but what is interesting to me about the area in which these murders occurred is that the trail these girls were on is so short. It's a mile and 1/2 at best.

And they were dropped off, I think, at the N 300 entrance, which would have put them even closer to the Monon Bridge. So they most likely didn't walk all that far. But they were there an hour before this guy creeps up on them. Is it possible, even with how sparse the trees were that he just stood and waited until they were far enough on the bridge, to where he could isolate them?

That's what it seems like.

And if he did this, where did he enter the trail initially? Someone mentioned the Cemetery--is there an official entrance there?

I have to wonder if anyone not familiar with this park would even know this spot. All the roads near to both of the entrances specifically for this area of the trail are somewhat off the beaten path. Even state road 25 seems like a locally used route, rather than a major thoroughfare.

This may be old news to everyone else, but it almost seems like this guy is a local. I didn't think so before. But that part of the trail is very off the beaten path---or am I wrong about that?

No you're not wrong in the last para. The cemetery is accessible by vehicle easily and parking at the rear is not visible from the road. There are some good videos available that show this. There is not an official entrance to the trail there but the creek and CS is accessible from the cemetery albeit via private property. Some have suggested he saw the girls on the bridge from the cemetery then headed down to the bridge. The distances can be seen on the maps Nin has just posted.
 
Q: anyone have any thoughts on what police meant early on by a "twist" in this case?
only thing I can think of is if this comment was made prior to police releasing photos & audio of perp. If so, that might have been the "twist". Thoughts?

Yes, I think that's the "twist."
 
I didn't say I disagree. I said I was originally in the vehicle camp and only changed my view after seeing the locked gate. If gate wasn't locked then the vehicle theory is a possibility as too the possibility of crossing the creek imo. I do believe he had a vehicle. Just not sure where it was parked, how/if it was used and why traffic and cctv have not revealed it and caught him.
Back when I first joined WS,I remember someone posting a photo of the blue bridge,I think it's called Freedom Bridge,that goes into the trails.The photo appeared to be a traffic cam as it snapped the picture from the highway and it was taller than the yellow semi that was in the pic.I wonder if this is why LE asked about the hitchhiker,maybe they have footage of him on this cam?
 
Perhaps this has been asked and answered, but I missed it.
I would like to know where the girls were that morning....before being dropped off. I would also like to know where they were when they made the plans to go for the hike.
Maybe he overheard them discussing the planned hike?
 
It would be really interesting to see a debunking video by GH as to weather the girls were taken away in a car and brought back or walked across the water to where they were found.

It would be interesting to know whether or not LE even thinks a car was involved. I'm sure they checked the road under the bridge, the cemetery, and the trail entrance for fresh tracks. Why am I sure that they checked? Because they are LE, that's why.
 
Q: anyone have any thoughts on what police meant early on by a "twist" in this case?
only thing I can think of is if this comment was made prior to police releasing photos & audio of perp. If so, that might have been the "twist". Thoughts?

When I hear LE refer to a "twist" in a case, to me, it means new evidence or potential evidence has been introduced that refutes their existing hypothesis.
 
It's bothering me that nobody heard anything.


I can't wrap my head around one aspect of this crime. We don't know COD. We don't know if any weapons at all were involved. We don't know if there was a vehicle used. We don't know if CS is in fact the actual CS or just a disposal site.

Regardless of all of that, whether we knew it or not, one thing I just can't come to terms with is no one hearing anything. Seeing anything we can come up with reasons as to why or why not anything would have been seen. But hearing? Is that spot so isolated that someone screaming for their life would no be heard? How do you keep 2 teenage girls from making a single peep? I don't mean to be graphic here I really don't, but someone had to die first didn't they? It's horrible to think about and makes me sick and i feel terrible for even thinking it.

How do you kill someone in front of another person and they don't then start to scream. Or you yourself start to scream realizing what is coming. What sort of control must you have. This whole crime just, smells funny. Smells seasoned. Practiced. Ugh.

I have my theories, but they are just that. Pure speculation. I just have a hard time with understanding a lot about this case, and it could very well be because we just don't know. But seeing these pictures and with what we do know about time frames...perhaps I need a break from this case. My mind is thoroughly sore from trying to understand.


Moo.
We also don't know that nobody heard anything. Heck, until very recently we didn't know that there were several witnesses who claim to have see BG. LE has loads of info that we are not privy to. People MAY have heard something… the public not might not know about it. I challenge everyone to look carefully at your assumptions and ask yourself if those assumptions are reasonable based on the known facts?

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It's bothering me that nobody heard anything

Regardless of all of that, whether we knew it or not, one thing I just can't come to terms with is no one hearing anything. Seeing anything we can come up with reasons as to why or why not anything would have been seen. But hearing? Is that spot so isolated that someone screaming for their life would no be heard? How do you keep 2 teenage girls from making a single peep? I don't mean to be graphic here I really don't, but someone had to die first didn't they? It's horrible to think about and makes me sick and i feel terrible for even thinking it.

How do you kill someone in front of another person and they don't then start to scream. Or you yourself start to scream realizing what is coming. What sort of control must you have. This whole crime just, smells funny. Smells seasoned. Practiced. Ugh.

I have my theories, but they are just that. Pure speculation. I just have a hard time with understanding a lot about this case, and it could very well be because we just don't know. But seeing these pictures and with what we do know about time frames...perhaps I need a break from this case. My mind is thoroughly sore from trying to understand.


Moo.

Maybe they didn't scream. There are many ways to silence someone. Duct tape is one way.
 
After spending a lot of time in the woods, IMO, we're not very perceptive, especially when it comes to things we're not looking for. In addition, it really is difficult to see things through trees. There's always movement going on in the woods, even after the leaves have fallen; branches moving, fallen leaves blowing, water rushing, etc. To someone not looking for people, I think someone walking, especially at a distance would blend in with the movement and just register as static/noise. There would be breaks as people moved behind obstacles (trees, rocks, bends, etc), so at quick glance, they may not be visible.

Looking at the map, it looks as though the bridge would have been the best possible place to see BG and the girls if the timing was right. But it's likely the worst place to take your eyes off of your path. I also don't know how common it is for trail walkers to meander off the trail and down the creek. If it's fairly common, it might not have registered even if someone was spotted. The people under the bridge were likely spotted because of proximity.



Snipped for space- I think BG could have been a decent ways away and heard a car door shut. For some reason, that sound seems to travel well through the woods (it also makes the roosting turkeys gobble). And being teenage girls, it's quite possible they could have been talking or laughing and been heard by someone in the distance. I don't think he needed to be on the trail at all to hear or see them.

I'm interested in the Hoosier Harvestore/U-store. I believe the home marked as the Harvestore might be the office, but I believe the long metal building next to the shorter building about midway between the Nature Preserve marker and 25 is likely where things are stored. I'd be interested to know from locals if this is correct, and if so, how much traffic it gets on a daily basis. It would be easy to see from the buildings to the pull off/ parking area by the trail.



While I can't answer with any certainty, my guess is someone screaming might not even be noticed, as sad as I am to say that. Depending on how far away the closest people were to where the girls were killed, it may have been hard to hear anyways. There appears to be a bend in the creek near the CS that might absorb some sound or cause it not to travel well towards the bridge. I'm sure there was also the sound of the creek.

Or someone did hear something and just hasn't made it known to the public.

Or there was no screaming at all. Shock and terror can make people do unpredictable things, like freezing instead of running, staring wide eyed instead of reacting, quietly sobbing instead of screaming.

The sad fact is he may have had duct tape to tape to silence the girls.

"I'll tied you up and gag you so you don't scream to teach you a lesson about taking people's pictures without their permission".

So I wonder if BOTH of them died from exposure and we not raped or otherwise shot/stabbed????
 
Q: anyone have any thoughts on what police meant early on by a "twist" in this case?
only thing I can think of is if this comment was made prior to police releasing photos & audio of perp. If so, that might have been the "twist". Thoughts?

This statement about the twist was made in an interview around March 8th. The photo and audio of the suspect had been released prior (I believe on February 15th and 22nd respectively). Nevertheless, I think the photo and audio is what he is referring to when he talks about a twist. The only other possibilities in my mind would be a perpetrator's unusual (successful?) effort to destroy evidence or maybe a unique object left at the scene or strange and ritualistic posing of the bodies.
 
The sad fact is he may have had duct tape to tape to silence the girls.

"I'll tied you up and gag you so you don't scream to teach you a lesson about taking people's pictures without their permission".

So I wonder if BOTH of them died from exposure and we not raped or otherwise shot/stabbed????

As I stated in the post above yours, duct tape is one way. However, I don't think they were killed because they took his picture. And, according to the statements and sickly sad looks on LE's faces, I don't think they died from exposure.
 
Is there a way to get back to thread 1 or 2? Or are those gone??

I'm specifically looking for the afternoon of 2/14 just after the bodies were discovered but before any info on BG was released.


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The sad fact is he may have had duct tape to tape to silence the girls.

<snip> I wonder if BOTH of them died from exposure and we not raped or otherwise shot/stabbed????
<snip>

I have wondered this very same thing, from the beginning. If they were wet, had their mouths taped with duct tape and it became dark; if perhaps they were tied together, etc. There had to be something that kept them from leaving the CS. Just my random thoughts here.

The first article I read after the girls were found (if I recall correctly) stated they were found below two hills. Whether that meant they were together (but separated), or if one was found below one hill and the other below a separate hill, I can't picture. But, I don't think they were actually located on that flat piece of property we all think of as the actual CS. There were other photos of deep gorges, etc., and scuff marks, as I recall. It would have been much more difficult to have located them at night IF THEY WERE down a deep gorge or gully, etc.

If they were released near or running from the cemetery with their hands bound, mouths taped, etc., they could have fallen (in the dark) into one of those deep gorges and perhaps even broken a bone. This is IF there was a car involved, etc.

If they were running after being forced down the hill from the bridge, they may have had mouths duct taped, hands bound and ran for their lives across the creek. They could have ended up in one of those many deep gorges, wet and cold (some of their clothes dragged off by force of water?), causing hypothermia.

ALL this is just thinking out loud on this most sad and perplexing case. It's the reason I turned to WS and constantly check to see if this horrible deviant has been arrested.

Just my random thoughts contained herein. Praying today will be the day!
 
<snip>

I have wondered this very same thing, from the beginning. If they were wet, had their mouths taped with duct tape and it became dark; if perhaps they were tied together, etc. There had to be something that kept them from leaving the CS. Just my random thoughts here.

The first article I read after the girls were found (if I recall correctly) stated they were found below two hills. Whether that meant they were together (but separated), or if one was found below one hill and the other below a separate hill, I can't picture. But, I don't think they were actually located on that flat piece of property we all think of as the actual CS. There were other photos of deep gorges, etc., and scuff marks, as I recall. It would have been much more difficult to have located them at night IF THEY WERE down a deep gorge or gully, etc.

If they were released near or running from the cemetery with their hands bound, mouths taped, etc., they could have fallen (in the dark) into one of those deep gorges and perhaps even broken a bone. This is IF there was a car involved, etc.

If they were running after being forced down the hill from the bridge, they may have had mouths duct taped, hands bound and ran for their lives across the creek. They could have ended up in one of those many deep gorges, wet and cold (some of their clothes dragged off by force of water?), causing hypothermia.

ALL this is just thinking out loud on this most sad and perplexing case. It's the reason I turned to WS and constantly check to see if this horrible deviant has been arrested.

Just my random thoughts contained herein. Praying today will be the day!

IMO, there is no way the perp was playing a game of catch and release. Why would he want to be potentially identified? No way.
 
Is there a way to get back to thread 1 or 2? Or are those gone??

I'm specifically looking for the afternoon of 2/14 just after the bodies were discovered but before any info on BG was released.


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on the first page of every thread are links to all threads, maps, media, etc
 
Back when I first joined WS,I remember someone posting a photo of the blue bridge,I think it's called Freedom Bridge,that goes into the trails.The photo appeared to be a traffic cam as it snapped the picture from the highway and it was taller than the yellow semi that was in the pic.I wonder if this is why LE asked about the hitchhiker,maybe they have footage of him on this cam?

Last night I spent time trying to figure out which way would be the best way to exit the area after committing a murder(s.) I'll spare you the time of reading all the reasons that I rejected all exits EXCEPT the long pathway exit (the formal entrance and exit pathway that begins at Route 25.) That was what I thought I would do to get away with the least likely possibility of being seen... and then would comfortably hitch hike right there on the side of Route 25 because, at that time, the girls would not have even been reported as missing yet. (One person said they can't put themselves into the murderer's head and I respect that. But, that is what I do and I think that is the most safe and logical exit.) The other possibility I think of is; how nice it would be to have a helper waiting in a car somewhere near who would respond to a cell phone call when the murder is finished. That would allow for unplanned events and having to leave the park by an unplanned route. It would also remove the chance of someone spotting a parked car and remembering it later. But, that is just an idea and based on no facts... however, might explain LE looking at cell phones of those they questioned. Certainly, an accomplice would delete anything having to do with the girls which is why I might suppose LE would want to look and check cell phones ... but, would an accomplice suppose he would need to delete the number of an "old friend," "brother" or whatever the relation would be?
ETA: Should have mentioned that a killer would probably have planned to leave that path and cut over to Route 25 BEFORE reaching the camera at the entrance of the park... goes without saying but I thought I'd say it anyway.
Just :moo:
 
Last night I spent time trying to figure out which way would be the best way to exit the area after committing a murder(s.) I'll spare you the time of reading all the reasons that I rejected all exits EXCEPT the long pathway exit (the formal entrance and exit pathway that begins at Route 25.) That was what I thought I would do to get away with the least likely possibility of being seen... and then would comfortably hitch hike right there on the side of Route 25 because, at that time, the girls would not have even been reported as missing yet.
Just :moo:

What is your theory behind this man hitch hiking? I haven't understood LE's reasoning in this yet, he just committed horrid acts, why risk hitch hiking is what I wonder. And if he was hitch hiking, that means he had no vehicle or else LE would have found an abandoned vehicle. MOO
 
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