IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

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It sure could have happened by that route, too, Shiressleuth. That would present a steeper hill to climb down to reach the creek... but, as we know... the girls were ordered "down the hill" and it could have been THAT hill.
Just :moo:


Jumping off your post.

JMO...

IF they went across the creek (and I'm leaning towards they did), there's no saying they had to cross immediately after going "down the hill". They may have walked X yards on the south side to narrower or shallower water.

IIRC, there was crime scene tape at the south bank near the bridge. Maybe in JM's video?

While I'm on the subject of crossing the creek, I doubt BG had any concern for the girls being cold or getting hypothermia. He had other things on his evil mind that day. And given the supposed timeline of under an hour (if they never left the creek/bridge area) it sadly probably wasn't an issue.

As for BG, it has been noted on multiple threads that he appears overdressed for the weather. He may have had waterproof or weatherproof clothes on under the ones we see in the image from the video.

He may have hidden a backpack/duffle bag (LE asked at the very beginning if anyone saw/found one) somewhere on RL's property/outbuildings or somewhere else nearby and either took off his top layer or changed into a completely dry set he had in the bag, shoved the clothes he shed into the bag, escaped and vanished.

As as far as hypothermia, I'm guessing BG was high on a twisted adrenaline rush and it most likely didn't phase him.

JMO.
 
Were they not likely waiting on one of the platforms for the killer to pass and that's when he took control? They were obviously already suspicious/scared and add to that the bridge is old and rickety and not suitable for running. He could have pulled out a gun/knife as soon as he got close to intimidate them. Not too sure what the argument here is...

YES! I agree 100%. I had written that they turned their backs as he approached but that makes no sense and I've been trying to fill in that blank. Of course they would step aside to let him go by and then resume their photo session. Thank you so much for filling in that puzzle piece which, imo, is exactly what they did. ETA... or been one girl or both off the end of the SE bridge and just waiting for BG to walk by so they could get back on the bridge to leave or take more photos... (just read what another "RIP M&J" wrote and that makes sense, too but boils down to same... either way the girls were waiting nervously for BG to just go by and go on his way.)
Everything I write is just :moo: (but, on this one... I like both your opinions better)
 
Thank you, Falling Down, for posting this informative data and please accept my apologies for snipping to focus.

You are telling us that the CS was downstream from the SE end of High Bridge. It follows that the bridge is upstream from the CS. Therefore, if the girls entered the creek at the SE end, they would have been with flow of the current and not against it. Correct? That helps me to understand a particular matter so I deeply appreciate your offering expertise on the matter.

The CS is upstream.

It's possible the searchers were near it that night, but didn't see anything.
 
I'd like to see this question addressed as well.

Also, I wonder if they tried to run down that road and BG caught up with them there?

Maybe this has been debunked somewhere and I missed it. It's also been a while since I've watched the GH videos.
The area along the road as you go toward the house is much steeper than closer to the bridge.

In LIDAR with a topographic line overlay it looks like this - each line you see is a difference of 10 feet of elevation:

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These two frames from the helicopter video should help to translate or visualize the steepness represented by the LIDAR/Topographic view as it would appear.

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Jumping off your post.

JMO...

IF they went across the creek (and I'm leaning towards they did), there's no saying they had to cross immediately after going "down the hill". They may have walked X yards on the south side to narrower or shallower water.

IIRC, there was crime scene tape at the south bank near the bridge. Maybe in JM's video?

While I'm on the subject of crossing the creek, I doubt BG had any concern for the girls being cold or getting hypothermia. He had other things on his evil mind that day. And given the supposed timeline of under an hour (if they never left the creek/bridge area) it sadly probably wasn't an issue.

As for BG, it has been noted on multiple threads that he appears overdressed for the weather. He may have had waterproof or weatherproof clothes on under the ones we see in the image from the video.

He may have hidden a backpack/duffle bag (LE asked at the very beginning if anyone saw/found one) somewhere on RL's property/outbuildings or somewhere else nearby and either took off his top layer or changed into a completely dry set he had in the bag, shoved the clothes he shed into the bag, escaped and vanished.

As as far as hypothermia, I'm guessing BG was high on a twisted adrenaline rush and it most likely didn't phase him.

JMO.

Yes, as to the route taken once the girls were "in custody" I agree we don't have the facts and can only guess. I am very curious as to what they found or were looking for at the south bank of the creek near the bridge. Might have been something having nothing to do with the murders though... sometimes LE will collect things "just in case" it relates to the crime... or it might have been some clothing that washed down in the current. Do you know if they were looking IN the water down that way? I agree that the bulky figure BG made was due to his having a change of clothing and even dry shoes under his jacket and IIRC, LE spoke to the public about a duffel bag or back pack in the area that LE would like to find. BG imo, probably left the CS with the wet, dirty clothing stuffed into the same bag he originally had his clean change of clothing in. I hadn't thought of wearing one set of clothing over the other but that is another interesting possibility.
I wouldn't believe even for a minute that any of the 3; AW, LG or BG would have even felt the temperature of the water. I fell through ice on a pond when skating as a child. I felt no sensation of being cold until I was out of the water after being rescued. In a terrifying situation the human mind can block out anything not related to the inherent goal of immediate survival, imo. There is more involved than that... This is interesting:
"Stress-induced analgesia occurs when an injured person can ignore the pain of an injury because of other stressful situations going on at the same time. For example, if you bang your shin while hiking, it stops hurting if you see a mountain lion. Researchers say a stress hormone, noradrenaline, also known as norepinephrine, which floods the bloodstream during stressful events, numbs the..."
From: http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/dailydose/12/03/stress.block.pain/index.html

Just my :moo:
 
Jumping off your post.

JMO...

IF they went across the creek (and I'm leaning towards they did), there's no saying they had to cross immediately after going "down the hill". They may have walked X yards on the south side to narrower or shallower water.

IIRC, there was crime scene tape at the south bank near the bridge. Maybe in JM's video?

While I'm on the subject of crossing the creek, I doubt BG had any concern for the girls being cold or getting hypothermia. He had other things on his evil mind that day. And given the supposed timeline of under an hour (if they never left the creek/bridge area) it sadly probably wasn't an issue.

As for BG, it has been noted on multiple threads that he appears overdressed for the weather. He may have had waterproof or weatherproof clothes on under the ones we see in the image from the video.

He may have hidden a backpack/duffle bag (LE asked at the very beginning if anyone saw/found one) somewhere on RL's property/outbuildings or somewhere else nearby and either took off his top layer or changed into a completely dry set he had in the bag, shoved the clothes he shed into the bag, escaped and vanished.

As as far as hypothermia, I'm guessing BG was high on a twisted adrenaline rush and it most likely didn't phase him.

JMO.

Agree on all points.

BG wasn't there for a leisurely walk. I believe he has a second set of something underneath the jeans, possibly waterproof. Hypothermia would not have been an issue, I've camped in 10F weather, as well as cold and wet weather was an issue re: body temp. BG didn't care about hypothermia, and the girls were dead within minutes of first contact. Unless, of course, this was an even more elaborate crime, where the girls were first incapacitated, but then what?

An earlier post brought up the private road/drive. Isn't the resident of the property a snow bird? If that's the case, then I'd imagine the private drive was closed at the gate.
 
Please don't post your personal contact information on a crime sleuthing forum.

:tyou:
 
Maybe he used an ultralite or a hand glider to get them out and back in? Or maybe there are underground tunnels no one knows about, like drug cartels use?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

Yeah. You nailed it.

Those ideas are so much more clever than something like a "car" to take them to and from the killing grounds.

Better than something like a hunter's "deer sled" (as mentioned by DeDee as a possibility) to help transport them to where they were found.

I know your aim is over the top, and I don't mean to have an attitude about it.

Unfortunately though, these poor girls had the misfortune of encountering just your average, run-of-the-mill, very evil killer...
 
Yes, as to the route taken once the girls were "in custody" I agree we don't have the facts and can only guess. I am very curious as to what they found or were looking for at the south bank of the creek near the bridge. Might have been something having nothing to do with the murders though... sometimes LE will collect things "just in case" it relates to the crime... or it might have been some clothing that washed down in the current. Do you know if they were looking IN the water down that way? I agree that the bulky figure BG made was due to his having a change of clothing and even dry shoes under his jacket and IIRC, LE rAspoke to the public about a duffel bag or back pack in the area that LE would like to find. BG imo, probably left the CS with the wet, dirty clothing stuffed into the same bag he originally had his clean change of clothing in. I hadn't thought of wearing one set of clothing over the other but that is another interesting possibility.
I wouldn't believe even for a minute that any of the 3; AW, LG or BG would have even felt the temperature of the water. I fell through ice on a pond when skating as a child. I felt no sensation of being cold until I was out of the water after being rescued. In a terrifying situation the human mind can block out anything not related to the inherent goal of immediate survival, imo. There is more involved than that... This is interesting:
"Stress-induced analgesia occurs when an injured person can ignore the pain of an injury because of other stressful situations going on at the same time. For example, if you bang your shin while hiking, it stops hurting if you see a mountain lion. Researchers say a stress hormone, noradrenaline, also known as norepinephrine, which floods the bloodstream during stressful events, numbs the..."
From: http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/dailydose/12/03/stress.block.pain/index.html

Just my :moo:

RBBM
Gah! I totally misread your question!:shame:
My understanding from MSM reports from February is they focused on the bridge and downstream (away from the crime scene). Not sure if it was IN the water or ALONG the banks. Apparently some searching was done upstream, as RL said he was asked if his property could be searched.
We don't know exactly where the searchers were on the 13th, what time they were there or how long they looked in a particular area.
AFAIK, the footage of the searchers in the creek was 2.14 or later.
JMO.
 
In spite of a disgusting map (sorry) ... but the map will show that the girls did not have to walk 1/4 mile through the very cold creek water. Follow the red line across the bridge to the SE end of bridge, down the hill, through the brushy trees and across a sandy part of the creek. You can even see how shallow the creek is here as the sand can be clearly seen through the water. This is, to me, is the shortest and easiest way to get from the bridge to the place where the girls were found. "Bodies found" is approximate. I believe the girls were actually found to the right of where I marked off but the route is pretty close imo.
attachment.php

That's a really good map. Very clear.

I'm satisfied that LE has the journey from the bridge to their bodies well in hand. I have to imagine once the girls were found, LE combed every possible route, and have looked for disturbance in the ground and brush. That would be standard investigatory procedure--they just haven't given all the details to the public, probably because this would likely be important hold-back info, to guard against a false confession.

What I've been looking for, and haven't found is a map of where the girls were dropped off by their sister (?), to where the moton bridge is.

From where on the Delphi Historic trail would the killer have most likely first spotted the girls. He had to be on the trail, not below at the point he crosses. Is it more likely that this was pure hapchance, or could he have been lurking for some time?

What entrance to the trail might he have been coming from? He could have back-tracked, but that bridge is not an easy cross, so what was he doing, where might he have been on the trail, just before he zeroed in on the girls?

How far from the girl's drop-off point was the bridge? Has anyone located a map of that?
 
"Top of the hill" is a ridge line, which is a few hundred feet from the back of the cemetery. So there's no way to see anyone from up above, unless you're at the ridge line. Reason being is the distance from the ridge line to the creek, it's a short distance, as demonstrated by the image above.

I have a lot of land navigation experience from military service. To me, the top of the ridge is one corner of a triangle, the triangle being the cross-section of land between the ridge and the creek. The short side of the triangle is the drop off from the top of the ridge. Long side of the triangle is the land, to the creek. Hypotenuse becomes our line-of-sight.

As you walk up to the ridge, you see a clearing in the trees in the distance, then the creek, then the land as you're practically on top of the ridge. If this makes any sense. Let's say our searchers got this far, the top of the ridge line the evening of the search. Unless they had a really high-powered spotlight, they would not have seen anything out of the ordinary from the top of the ridge. I'm merely assuming they got that far, as they'd asked neighbors for permission to go on to the private properties along there. We need to keep in mind the search was centered around the bridge, and downstream.

I don't think BG had much in the way of concern for being seen by anyone, but as you stated there were risks, and he knew that. Which tells me he had to get the crimes over with, in a matter of minutes. This is MOO, but I think he incapacitated them, somehow, then murdered them.

Walk from the parking area to the bridge=roughly 8 minutes, probably somewhat less for most adults.

Walk across the bridge, at a leisurely pace, probably 5-6 minutes. BG probably crossed it in under 4.

From the SE end of the bridge to the CS: Considering time of year, I'd say under 4 minutes.

I don't see that many park users would access the CS and general area around it, via the path from the cemetery. It's private property, and that's posted. My hunch is folks use that trail for horseback riding, and for folks to keep an eye on their properties. In one video I've seen, a pick up truck is seen not far from the CS, obviously people keeping an eye on things after the murders.

This simple information tells me BG had been there before, perhaps several times before in the past. He had to have known that the bridge/park would have few users on a relatively mild February day, so people getting on to the trail from the parking area may have had a frequency of one or two every half hour or so. On, say, a warm summer day, it might be 8-12 users per hour. Something along those lines, is what I'm thinking.

I still maintain he was watching the bridge, concealed himself somehow, and was observing who was crossing, and whether or not they walked the entire length.
All I ever said was that if you were standing anywhere near where that photo was taken in the daylight this what you would see. That location where the picture was taken isn't an arbitrary location. It is along a path that runs from further up on RL's land - it was the way he walked the reporters down there that day (there is video). There is also a path that runs East/West it runs along that ridge and crosses the North/South path that comes down from the Southwest corner of the cemetery. That path continues on west and comes out on the trail within a very short distance of the north end of the bridge - maybe 40 feet (and probably less).

Anybody that walked that path and was on the ridge arc bordering that "flatter" area near the creek would have a decent view into the area. That nobody wasn't there at the time is what happened. The point still remains that there is no way for BG to know that no one would be in the area the girls were found or come walking along the path that traverses the ridge line at all.

None of this has to do with any particular theory the question was what would the visibility into that area be like. I showed it from one location. We do not have any images taken from the bridge at any point along the way across it toward the crime scene to show us that view. All we have is video and the compression artifacts over distance do not provide a representation of what your eyes would see at those distances. This is why I mentioned that even from that distance at best one might be able to see motion and determine it is humans walking about. This is because the human vision processing system prioritizes motion detection, then pattern recognition which in turn tries to use patterns to discern if it is a human or something else and so on down the list of processing.

I mentioned the places where there should be visibility into the area where the girls were found. I didn't mention any others where there was no way for them to be seen or where a person could not see and determine human movement due to distance or angles. It was only about where it was possible.
 
Agree on all points.

BG wasn't there for a leisurely walk. I believe he has a second set of something underneath the jeans, possibly waterproof. Hypothermia would not have been an issue, I've camped in 10F weather, as well as cold and wet weather was an issue re: body temp. BG didn't care about hypothermia, and the girls were dead within minutes of first contact. Unless, of course, this was an even more elaborate crime, where the girls were first incapacitated, but then what?

An earlier post brought up the private road/drive. Isn't the resident of the property a snow bird? If that's the case, then I'd imagine the private drive was closed at the gate.

RBBM

JMO

At least one of the properties was owned by a snowbird. I thought there were 3-4 homes on that private road past the gate.

I also thought the "vehicle on the road" was debunked when the "person/face under the bridge" was debunked. Maybe I was dreaming or completely missed something.
 
Agree on all points.

BG wasn't there for a leisurely walk. I believe he has a second set of something underneath the jeans, possibly waterproof. Hypothermia would not have been an issue, I've camped in 10F weather, as well as cold and wet weather was an issue re: body temp. BG didn't care about hypothermia, and the girls were dead within minutes of first contact. Unless, of course, this was an even more elaborate crime, where the girls were first incapacitated, but then what?

An earlier post brought up the private road/drive. Isn't the resident of the property a snow bird? If that's the case, then I'd imagine the private drive was closed at the gate.

I might be wrong but it's my understanding that there are several residents on that road.

Abby and her mother lived on it too...
 
attachment.php

This photo was taken right in front of the CS while standing on the bank... (I believe by that man who is making the debunking videos took this photograph.) It shows a relatively low bank across the river. It also shows the SE end of the bridge through the trees and, as you can see, it's not a terribly long walk from the bridge to the CS.
 

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Your thinking is incredibly perceptive! There is a slight cutout in the embankment area where I believe the bodies were found.

It is impossible for me to think like a murderer, I can't let my mind go there.

I can however, imagine a gold brick at the south end of the bridge that I want to steal, but if I get caught I will go to prison for life. I would check out the area very carefully, maybe for hours in advance. I would then come up the south end of the bridge, walk a short distance to make sure no one was present to identify me. I would then turn around walk back to the gold brick, grab it and vanish down the south side.
It is highly likely that the girls were found right where the arrow in this image is pointing.

attachment.php


That location is determined from this video posted to twitter by a reporter which shows where family placed flowers. I can't get into why I think that is exactly the spot because it would require me to discuss information that can only be discussed on the scanner thread.

[video=twitter;833751458885537793]https://twitter.com/VanwykWTHR/status/833751458885537793[/video]
 

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All MOO

We can each have our theories, but we can be respectful to others with differing theories.

It boils down to a few very basic known facts.

We don't know at what time or a what place BG says 'down the hill'

We don't know a time of death.

We don't know the sequence of events after he says 'down the hill'

Those three things above are facts.

Very well said! Much appreciated, and thank you so much!
 
Thank you, Falling Down, for posting this informative data and please accept my apologies for snipping to focus.

You are telling us that the CS was downstream from the SE end of High Bridge. It follows that the bridge is upstream from the CS. Therefore, if the girls entered the creek at the SE end, they would have been with flow of the current and not against it. Correct? That helps me to understand a particular matter so I deeply appreciate your offering expertise on the matter.
Deer Creek flows from East to West. Deer Creek flows into the Tippicanoe River. The crime scene is upstream of the bridge.
 
It's bothering me that nobody heard anything.


I can't wrap my head around one aspect of this crime. We don't know COD. We don't know if any weapons at all were involved. We don't know if there was a vehicle used. We don't know if CS is in fact the actual CS or just a disposal site.

Regardless of all of that, whether we knew it or not, one thing I just can't come to terms with is no one hearing anything. Seeing anything we can come up with reasons as to why or why not anything would have been seen. But hearing? Is that spot so isolated that someone screaming for their life would no be heard? How do you keep 2 teenage girls from making a single peep? I don't mean to be graphic here I really don't, but someone had to die first didn't they? It's horrible to think about and makes me sick and i feel terrible for even thinking it.

How do you kill someone in front of another person and they don't then start to scream. Or you yourself start to scream realizing what is coming. What sort of control must you have. This whole crime just, smells funny. Smells seasoned. Practiced. Ugh.

I have my theories, but they are just that. Pure speculation. I just have a hard time with understanding a lot about this case, and it could very well be because we just don't know. But seeing these pictures and with what we do know about time frames...perhaps I need a break from this case. My mind is thoroughly sore from trying to understand.


Moo.
 
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