IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #73

[mtnlites]

I thought about that after posting. Some women have numerous ultrasounds and others have 1-2. My husband only ever came to my 20 week anatomy scan but did not come to any other appointments or ultrasounds. If you're having an ultrasound every week or every couple weeks, it would be harder to recall details than if you have only 1-2 throughout all of pregnancy. Jmo.

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Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. There are just too many possible variables involved here to say for certain whether KN *should* remember. If she'd had numerous ultrasounds then this one may not have stood out for her (been there). This is pure speculation on my part, but for some women, pregnancies are not joyous, exciting occasions. If there's a lot of stress going on in your life and other outside factors, you might not be as tuned into everything that goes on with it. My son died and I got pregnant 3 months later. Although that pregnancy was not only wanted, but planned, it was not the joyous, excitement-filled journey that my other two had been. I was under so much stress and grief that I was NOT tuned into that pregnancy at all. Can barely remember anything about it. Your mental health will screw with you like that. Luckily, with some counseling and help, things changed once my daughter was born.

My point is, each pregnancy is different and highly personal to each individual woman. It's hard to say what someone *should* remember or feel because this is something that is all subjective.

 

[DarkSkink]

The ultrasound itself would be significant enough for me to remember. I was simply commenting that Valentine's day has no further relevance on my memory.

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I know. I just expanded off that, should she have said the same thing. Those are the questions she should be asking herself, or those close to her asking of her.

Imagine him being innocent, knowing he was at the ultrasound, and she's having convenient memory lapses that could easily clear him.

If she was altruistic about it, I think we'd see a different effort and answer from her whether she thinks he's guilty or not.

 

[Deleted member 189081]

... Or would the discussion be more meaningful if someone asked why DN couldn't be BG?

Feel free to start I am the proverbial fence sitter :fence: and would welcome such a discussion.

KR
Reacher

 

[Boxer]

I want to note that DN took his family and left a relatively stable situation in Greenwood.
According to KN he was in a program nearby the motel - and they paid for the motel--
So as a dad, he took them from a stable living situation of being in a program that provided shelter, to be homeless on the road -- with a newborn annd toddler.

KN gave birth on 4/30. She said DN learned of his brother murder in early May and had them leave in a car for CO by 5/12 --

 

[Momma2cam]

I think it's naturally easier arguing the pros, rather than the cons, but you can't get at one without pointing out the other.

The presumption of innocence should, in theory, always be the foundation of all the discussions on WS. Once you make that assumption and hold that as a truth, then the actual discussions should be read in that context. He/She is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but look at this... look at that... does this mean this or that?

We don't have all the facts, particularly the crucial ones. Some of what is discussed is cold hard fact, and some is deduction based on those facts. There wouldn't be much discussion if it was all fact.

Poster 1: She gave an interview.

Potster 2: Yup.

Poster 3: Interview confirmed.

Some are comfortable putting their opinions out there to be debated, and some are sensitive. It doesn't make any opinion less valuable. A lot of the disagreement or discomfort is more from how something is read, rather than how it is written. The best way to arrive at an objective viewpoint is to scan a vast horizon. The whys. The what do you thinks. It helps expand that relative perspective.

Poster 1: I don't see DN as BG.

Poster 2: Yup.

Poster 3: Opinion confirmed.

... Or would the discussion be more meaningful if someone asked why DN couldn't be BG?

Oh I agree. Discussion involves "listening" and considering multiple perspectives. I've seen reference to him being "99%" BG, the irony being too significant to ignore and encouraged to wake up, etc. That level of confidence regarding guilt of a possible suspect with very limited information from LE is what is a bit concerning IMO.

I have to give credit to BOP for helping me see that early on in the RL fiasco. The more cases I've followed here, through podcast, local media, through my career, etc I've seen how horrible being wrongfully accused can impact someone's life. When children are involved, I personally feel more protective. Providing opinions and discussing possibilities is the point of this website and I enjoy that engagement, hence why I'm here.

I just worry about those that have their minds definitively made up and make sweeping harsh judgment and comments about an entire family. I've been personally attacked and accused of being the defense in a case here only because I refused to jump on the mob he deserves to die bandwagon before there is even a charge. That was a wake up call for me that lay people can easily become so convinced of someone's guilt in cases of strangers and the violence and aftermath that can follow is frightening. So, I've tried to be very careful of how I express my opinion before all facts are known.

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[DarkSkink]

I am am thinking what would be important to most people wouldn’t even be on their radar. Could be he waited outside for her. Could be the only question asked was would she like a beer or a cigarette? I have seen it. My only question is why these people don’t use birth control?

Ha. That's a whole other debate. What also creates a supportive, selfless cargiving parent as opposed to an abusive parent, over indulgent parent, or a Munchausen by Proxy parent is also cause for some lively discussion.

There is always a possible fact we don't have that can explain such a memory loss. Antidepressants? Drug use? Trauma issues like someone pointed out?

However...

... For those who's relative perspective that an ultrasound isn't a big deal, would it suddenly become a big deal if your partner was being questioned about a double murder, and you were being questioned by detectives? Would you feel the pressure to remember if you were asked to provide a possible alibi? Would you make an effort to remember then?

 

[kkdj]

KN apparently held down jobs and brought in at least a small income. They could have also been receiving government supplements (WIC, Food Stamps, etc.). My sister and her family are homeless. Although they don't have a permanent home, the kids are never without food or clothing. Family and friends help out, they receive a sizable tax refund (more than $6,000 every year), and the odd jobs they pick up along the way provide the rest. If people are resourceful enough, they'll find a way.

Wonder if DN was the little girls caretaker while KN was at work. ugh!

 

[Momma2cam]

Ha. That's a whole other debate. What also creates a supportive, selfless cargiving parent as opposed to an abusive parent, over indulgent parent, or a Munchausen by Proxy parent is also cause for some lively discussion.

There is always a possible fact we don't have that can explain such a memory loss. Antidepressants? Drug use? Trauma issues like someone pointed out?

However...

... For those who's relative perspective that an ultrasound isn't a big deal, would it suddenly become a big deal if your partner was being questioned about a double murder, and you were being questioned by detectives? Would you feel the pressure to remember if you were asked to provide a possible alibi? Would you make an effort to remember then?

Yes, I would absolutely try to recall as many details from the day as possible. Do we know that KN has not done the same? I haven't followed all of her statements.

Research supports that we have a hard time remembering all details from a "routine" day. The ultrasound may or may not have been a routine day. The more time to elapse between when the routine day occurred and when you are informed that your husband may be a POI in a murder, the harder it will be to recall specific details.

It is also possible as some have alluded, she's intentionally leaving out details to either protect her husband OR protect herself (documented DV history).

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[Boxer]

Feel free to start I am the proverbial fence sitter :fence: and would welcome such a discussion.

KR
Reacher

Feel free to start I am the proverbial fence sitter :fence: and would welcome such a discussion.

KR
Reacher

Good idea

Lets reverse the points.

DN resembles the police sketch but looks like a younger person than the police sketch.
No DNA match to the scene
He doesn't have and wouldn't have worn a jacket like BG is wearing (style is too farmer, too old)

Opportunty:
Getting to Delphi is1:20 minutes from the Camby area where DN was living homeless
He had no transportation, car or motorcycle.
He has no reported connections to Delphi or reason to go there.
He was at an ultrasound with his wife at 2:45 on 2/13, the time the crime started more than an hour away,

Motive:
He has no reason to murder two teens, he never killed before, his crimes don't indicate an escalation to murder. He gets angry, threatens, commits assault and sexually motivated publec exposure crimes -- but he had never combined the two. He had threatened to kill people and people were afraid of him, but again this was within a predicatble range, not expected to escalate. We dont know how they were killed -- so if had means is not knowable.

Means:
As a felon he could not have weapons legally.
He did not have gun at the time, he sold his shotgun to comply with the law.
He did have a hatchet and used it mainly for camping, although he did also use it to threaten people but these threats were within a predictable range of outburst and not necessarily expected to escalate to murder.


Can't think of any more points -- I wonder if he never hitchhikes - haven't seen that question asked.

 

[DarkSkink]

Oh I agree. Discussion involves "listening" and considering multiple perspectives. I've seen reference to him being "99%" BG, the irony being too significant to ignore and encouraged to wake up, etc. That level of confidence regarding guilt of a possible suspect with very limited information from LE is what is a bit concerning IMO.

I have to give credit to BOP for helping me see that early on in the RL fiasco. The more cases I've followed here, through podcast, local media, through my career, etc I've seen how horrible being wrongfully accused can impact someone's life. When children are involved, I personally feel more protective. Providing opinions and discussing possibilities is the point of this website and I enjoy that engagement, hence why I'm here.

I just worry about those that have their minds definitively made up and make sweeping harsh judgment and comments about an entire family. I've been personally attacked and accused of being the defense in a case here only because I refused to jump on the mob he deserves to die bandwagon before there is even a charge. That was a wake up call for me that lay people can easily become so convinced of someone's guilt in cases of strangers and the violence and aftermath that can follow is frightening. So, I've tried to be very careful of how I express my opinion before all facts are known.

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The 'irony' is, that the bombastic "99% Sure" posts inspire the thought provoking counterpoints, which is what we should all want.

It's great when a creative point is made, either for or against, that makes you question your own logic and viewpoint, or ties facts together.

I often find myself saying "Oh that's smart.", "Oh now that makes sense.", "Oh, I didn't know that.", or, "Oh I didn't think of that." in my head even though I may not agree or see it in the same way.

It doesn't come without the discussion though, so I'm obviously a big proponent of questioning everything and putting ideas out there to be dissected.

 

[DarkSkink]

Feel free to start I am the proverbial fence sitter :fence: and would welcome such a discussion.

KR
Reacher

Pssst... lol... that's what the ending of that post was without directly putting that person on the hot seat to answer.

 

[Surly Oracle]

Good idea

Can't think of any more points -- I wonder if he never hitchhikes - haven't seen that question asked.

I don't know about how it is in other states. But I live in rural Indiana and travel as much as the next person.

Personally I haven't seen a hitchhiker on any road in Indiana in well over 20 years. Ever!

People mention DN hitchhiking to and from Delphi (to commit a murder even) like it's some sort of common practice when it's just not. In fact it's illegal to hitchhike in our state unless you're broken down or experiencing some type of dire emergency. Seeing a hitchhiker in Indiana is as rare as spotting big foot or a UFO.

 

[Momma2cam]

Pssst... lol... that's what the ending of that post was without directly putting that person on the hot seat to answer.

1. I see the resemblance in the sketch. I also saw resemblance in RL and BG. But do not think RL is BG and likewise, am not sure DN is BG.

2. The distance seems far for a homeless man to travel. But, could have borrowed a car, used KN's (although how did she get to the US then?), hitchhiked

3. LE said they thought they would have an answer on his involvement after visiting him. I cannot recall specific words but the implication was they were possibly waiting on DNA. So far, no word on a match.

4. I wouldn't be shocked if he was involved in the murder of TW. And find the reports of threats with a hatchet concerning. But, I cannot see the direct connection at this time to A&L, particularly as we do not have a COD.

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[kstephens98]

C'mon, we all know Bigfoot is located in the Pacific Northwest and UFO's reside in Nevada!

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[DarkSkink]

Yes, I would absolutely try to recall as many details from the day as possible. Do we know that KN has not done the same? I haven't followed all of her statements.

Research supports that we have a hard time remembering all details from a "routine" day. The ultrasound may or may not have been a routine day. The more time to elapse between when the routine day occurred and when you are informed that your husband may be a POI in a murder, the harder it will be to recall specific details.

It is also possible as some have alluded, she's intentionally leaving out details to either protect her husband OR protect herself (documented DV history).

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Yes. That's what the initial discussion was about, whether the interview seems honest or smacks of something else.

Point, counterpoint. It's a wonderful thing. I thought "relative perspective" was a strong point so I dug a little deeper. There is no right or wrong at this point, and we may never find out the truth.

At this point, it's good to be reminded that these are real people, and not just debate fodder.

At the same time, it's also good to point out that a little pushing or prodding or brainstorming might be the thing that helps maybe even KN remember something he wore that day that is tucked away, or that he definitely accompanied her to the ultrasound that day and can prove it.

What might be interference one day, might be help another day because a POI was eliminated or confirmed.

 

[Lamima]

Are they for sure she went to the US? Maybe she was a no show.

 

[kkdj]

Good idea

Lets reverse the points.

DN resembles the police sketch but looks like a younger person than the police sketch.
No DNA match to the scene
He doesn't have and wouldn't have worn a jacket like BG is wearing (style is too farmer, too old)

Opportunty:
Getting to Delphi is1:20 minutes from the Camby area where DN was living homeless
He had no transportation, car or motorcycle.
He has no reported connections to Delphi or reason to go there.
He was at an ultrasound with his wife at 2:45 on 2/13, the time the crime started more than an hour away,

Motive:
He has no reason to murder two teens, he never killed before, his crimes don't indicate an escalation to murder. He gets angry, threatens, commits assault and sexually motivated publec exposure crimes -- but he had never combined the two. He had threatened to kill people and people were afraid of him, but again this was within a predicatble range, not expected to escalate. We dont know how they were killed -- so if had means is not knowable.

Means:
As a felon he could not have weapons legally.
He did not have gun at the time, he sold his shotgun to comply with the law.
He did have a hatchet and used it mainly for camping, although he did also use it to threaten people but these threats were within a predictable range of outburst and not necessarily expected to escalate to murder.


Can't think of any more points -- I wonder if he never hitchhikes - haven't seen that question asked.

LE asked in the beginning if anyone saw or picked up a hitchhiker around the area.

 

[Momma2cam]

I don't know about how it is in other states. But I live in rural Indiana and travel as much as the next person.

Personally I haven't seen a hitchhiker on any road in Indiana in well over 20 years. Ever!

People mention DN hitchhiking to and from Delphi (to commit a murder even) like it's some sort of common practice when it's just not. In fact it's illegal to hitchhike in our state unless you're broken down or experiencing some type of dire emergency. Seeing a hitchhiker in Indiana is as rare as spotting big foot or a UFO.

My guess is, IF he did any kind of hitchhiking to Delphi, it was in the form of hitching a ride with someone he knows.

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[cathdawg]

I recall LE asking people to come forward if they saw anyone hitch hiking or walking on the Hoosier Hwy. (Feb 20/17)
http://fox59.com/2017/02/20/all-out-manhunt-for-main-suspect-in-murders-of-two-delphi-teens/

 

[Deleted member 189081]

Pssst... lol... that's what the ending of that post was without directly putting that person on the hot seat to answer.

Well I have my own doubts

I have problems with the sketch in which I see no resemblance to DN what so ever - but then again his wife does. I actually don't see the sketch as looking anything like BG it looks to old,

Do I think BG could be DN well I suppose it could be, but I have to admit I am still struggling with it.

I just find that where he was in Indiana was to far to travel to Delphi but then again there may be facts we as the GP don't know about.

I am still a firm believer that the person/s that committed this crime knows of and is local or a frequent visitor to the area for leisure or work purposes.

The rational for murdering two teens is beyond me.

But I still think they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and saw something they shouldn't have done.I really haven't moved too much from that in the last 9 months

IMHO
Kind Regards
Reacher