IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #73

[kkdj]

I have no problems with the Greeno/ KN interview,as she knew who she was talking to. No doubt she is here. I had problems with the DN recorded telephone call.

KR
Reacher

Do you mean on websleuths?

 

[kizzykat]

I'm bringing this forward from a few days ago because this morning someone up thread mentioned Micah Lambert's disappearance again. I just checked a site I had found earlier related to her Celebration of Life Service and learned the service was not due to her passing, and that as of yesterday she has not been found.

I haven't seen this mentioned. Going to preface this post by noting that search results show a Celebration of Life service was held for Micah Lambert on Sunday 10/29/17. However I'm unable to find anything officially indicating Ms Lambert was found or is deceased or her case is closed. No MSM or LE updates, no obit, still listed on multiple Missing Persons sites. No updates to the WS thread below indicating she was found.

I wonder if DN had anything to do with ML's disappearance? There are some odd coincidences & similarities. Avid hiker & outdoor enthusiast, car found in an isolated area, search conducted in rugged terrain, very close to where DN was later arrested.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Springs-23-Sept-2017&highlight=micah+lambert

Saturday 9/23/2017 Micah Lambert last seen at a friend's house in Divide, CO. that morning.
Sunday 09/24/2017 Micah Lambert reported missing to Colorado Springs P.D.
Monday 9/25/2017 DN arrested Woodland Park, CO.
It's approximately 7 miles from Woodland Park to Divide.
Friday 9/29/17 friends found Micah Lambert's car abandoned in parking lot of Catamount Recreation Area.
Catamount Rec Area is about 8 miles from Divide, and about 6 miles from Woodland Park
Friday 9/29/17 search commenced
Tuesday 10/3/2017 search suspended but case remains open
Saturday 10/21/2017 the OP of the WS thread on Micah posted she's still missing.
Sunday 10/29/2017 Celebration of Life Event held for Ms. Lambert.

Posted Tues 10/3/17: "From Friday to Tuesday morning, search and rescue crews were using several different methods, including scent dogs and sonar boats, to locate her. ....Tuesday afternoon the search was called off and Micah had not yet been located."
http://www.kktv.com/content/news/MISSING-Womans-car-found-abandoned-near-Divide-449143373.html

[video=youtube;S5alFr0vzcg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5alFr0vzcg[/video]

 

[Love Never Fails]

Thank you. So, my next question is.......if KN applied for welfare in CO, wouldn't IN then suspect that her husband was with her? And since he failed to show for his weekly RSO check ins, wouldn't they be able to "follow the money" to find this felon?
Also, I wonder if when applying for welfare, KN stated she was a single parent with the 2 children, therefore not telling where DN was with her, in the state of CO. So, my next question would continue into was she hiding him or trying to hide him?

Yes! Women claim they get no help from a husband or father of a child and all the time, the man comes and goes.
As far as IN tracking his whereabouts, no one does a good job. It is a broken system. That is why they break the law repeatedly committing the same crimes. When they finally get caught, there is found to be a trail of crimes committed. Whoever killed these girls, I believe, is a serial killer.

 

[Deleted member 189081]

Well she is everywhere so why not here. IMHO

 

[kkdj]

The card can be used in any state. Though if they change their residence they would have to let Indiana know and apply in Colorado. Benefits would be re-calculated to reflect costs in Colorado.

Depending on $ one might not be inclined to report a move. How is this monitored?

 

[DarkSkink]

We don't usually celebrate Valentine's day in our home. It is definitely no big deal and honestly wouldn't be remembered any differently than any other day for me. I think this is a very relative perspective. Jmo.

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Don't "usually" celebrate it, but add a pregnancy, an ultrasound appointment, and some already heightened drama in the relationship, and it's more than just any other day.

It's one of two... maybe three ultrasounds during the pregnancy? Police question you about it? Your husband's very life could hinge on it? The father of your kids? The man who apparently abuses you? Your future child support payments? You're not sure if he was there? Not sure?

He didn't ask any questions at the appointment? You didn't look at each other and smile? You didn't feel that relief that everything seems fine? You don't recall him asking how it went if he wasn't there? You don't recall wanting to tell him all is well after you left? Did they see any anomalies that you discussed? Did you have the sex of the baby discussion? Where was that discussion? You don't recall if you were relieved or annoyed that he wasn't there? You remember watching tv the next day with him, but your unborn child's ultrasound is a mystery?

 

[Momma2cam]

Maybe she used relatives or friends addresses. Maybe he committed robbery more than a few times. I would hate to even know how they lived. I am sure any welfare worker would tell you food stamps are also sold and money spent for alcohol and cigarettes. It is amazing how parents will care for their kids last of all and get away with it. At one time I worked for the Texas Welfare Department, now referred to as CPS. The cases we saw would break your heart. The departments are overloaded and it is a system that people use for their own gain, not always good. Also, MOO, even if DN is innocent of the Delphi crime, it was likely difficult to find any work with his RSO record and his probable dishonorable discharge from the military. All of which is no excuse. He made his choices.

Respectfully, this is based on a whole lot of assumption. We don't know what assistance they received nor how their children were cared for. Being homeless by itself is not a crime but rather a symptom of poverty.

The children are now being monitored by the state and hopefully receiving therapy to help them get through this and any other traumatic experiences they've been through.

The Foster Care system is definitely overburdened and faulty but we do not have enough information to say that they "got away with" caring for their kids last. We don't know what CPS has done in the past with this family or what prior information was ever reported.

I'm seeing similar levels of confidence that DN is BG that was expressed about RL. Just leaves me scratching my head and giving more reason to sit back and consider the facts objectively as they are presented. So far, I'm not seeing DN confidently being BG. Jmo.

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[Momma2cam]

Don't "usually" celebrate it, but add a pregnancy, an ultrasound appointment, and some already heightened drama in the relationship, and it's more than just any other day.

It's one of two... maybe three ultrasounds during the pregnancy? Police question you about it? Your husband's very life could hinge on it? The father of your kids? The man who apparently abuses you? Your future child support payments? You're not sure if he was there? Not sure?

He didn't ask any questions at the appointment? You didn't look at each other and smile? You didn't feel that relief that everything seems fine? You don't recall him asking how it went if he wasn't there? You don't recall wanting to tell him all is well after you left? Did they see any anomalies that you discussed? Did you have the sex of the baby discussion? Where was that discussion? You don't recall if you were relieved or annoyed that he wasn't there? You remember watching tv the next day with him, but your unborn child's ultrasound is a mystery?

The ultrasound itself would be significant enough for me to remember. I was simply commenting that Valentine's day has no further relevance on my memory.

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[Bird of Paradise]

I wanted to pop in again to say how nice it is to see some old friends back here on the thread.

Jethro and Momma2cam were here in the beginning and it's nice to have them back with their voice of reason.

:seeya:

 

[Love Never Fails]

Respectfully, this is based on a whole lot of assumption. We don't know what assistance they received nor how their children were cared for. Being homeless by itself is not a crime but rather a symptom of poverty.

The children are now being monitored by the state and hopefully receiving therapy to help them get through this and any other traumatic experiences they've been through.

The Foster Care system is definitely overburdened and faulty but we do not have enough information to say that they "got away with" caring for their kids last. We don't know what CPS has done in the past with this family or what prior information was ever reported.

I'm seeing similar levels of confidence that DN is BG that was expressed about RL. Just leaves me scratching my head and giving more reason to sit back and consider the facts objectively as they are presented. So far, I'm not seeing DN confidently being BG. Jmo.

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of course the homeless live in poverty!! But it is also true that what got them there a lot of times is alcohol and drugs. That is a fact. It has nothing to do with whether or not he is BG. I don’t fault CPS as much as I do the parents who are slick enough to deceive them. Happens every single day. CPS cannot keep up with them.

 

[Love Never Fails]

Don't "usually" celebrate it, but add a pregnancy, an ultrasound appointment, and some already heightened drama in the relationship, and it's more than just any other day.

It's one of two... maybe three ultrasounds during the pregnancy? Police question you about it? Your husband's very life could hinge on it? The father of your kids? The man who apparently abuses you? Your future child support payments? You're not sure if he was there? Not sure?

He didn't ask any questions at the appointment? You didn't look at each other and smile? You didn't feel that relief that everything seems fine? You don't recall him asking how it went if he wasn't there? You don't recall wanting to tell him all is well after you left? Did they see any anomalies that you discussed? Did you have the sex of the baby discussion? Where was that discussion? You don't recall if you were relieved or annoyed that he wasn't there? You remember watching tv the next day with him, but your unborn child's ultrasound is a mystery?

I am am thinking what would be important to most people wouldn’t even be on their radar. Could be he waited outside for her. Could be the only question asked was would she like a beer or a cigarette? I have seen it. My only question is why these people don’t use birth control?

 

[Jethro4WS]

Depending on $ one might not be inclined to report a move. How is this monitored?

If it is like many of the state runs systems they probably send a letter to the address they have on file every 3 or 4 months. If they get no reply or call back they might suspend re-filling the account. But generally a brief phone interview will keep things as they are.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

You're not factoring in her willingness, almost eagerness, to do the interviews and speak publicly.

She's not so traumatized and detached that she is unable to speak, or is reluctant to speak, or wishing not to relive the trauma, or wishing to be left alone, or wishing to avoid it all, or seeking privacy to deal with getting her kids back.

There isn't a naive, forthright or brutally honest answer. It's all carefully chosen words to maintain ambiguity, and the typical terminology of a professional victim.

Not defending KN by my previous post. I agree with you. I’m just saying that she has been through trauma & it does affect her ability to place blame with DN, to an extent. Whether it be out of fear or love or some type of dependency, I haven’t a clue. AJMOO


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[Momma2cam]

of course the homeless live in poverty!! But it is also true that what got them there a lot of times is alcohol and drugs. That is a fact. It has nothing to do with whether or not he is BG. I don’t fault CPS as much as I do the parents who are slick enough to deceive them. Happens every single day. CPS cannot keep up with them.

Alcohol and drugs are also common symptoms of generational poverty and trauma. His criminal history reflects very poor life choices and is not someone I'd want to have children with. But, the chances that both he and KN were once children who grew up in poverty and trauma is high (see ACE study: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/acestudy/index.html).
He's responsible for any and all crimes he committed. Addiction & trauma is no excuse- but if we are ever going to make an impact long term, we have to consider early and preventative intervention. Condemning and using fear and hatred doesn't work. Off my soapbox.

I was hoping by now we would have clearer indication from LE in regards to involvement in this case. It appears no DNA at this point has yet linked him. It seems more likely at this point that he was involved in the murder of Tim Watkins than in Libby & Abby's murders.

I just keep hoping for a big break that brings some resolution and healing for L&A's families. I want the right killer to be brought to justice.

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[mtnlites]

Thank you for this post! I have been trying to find words for questions such as this! Such as, how did they eat? How did they keep their growing children in clothes, shoes, diapers, etc? Nobody looks like they went hungry, clothing in the pics looks like they fit well, etc. Did they beg? Did they steal? I would imagine at least both of these! And both of them! These two adults knew how to survive. Both of them did and they did it together.

KN apparently held down jobs and brought in at least a small income. They could have also been receiving government supplements (WIC, Food Stamps, etc.). My sister and her family are homeless. Although they don't have a permanent home, the kids are never without food or clothing. Family and friends help out, they receive a sizable tax refund (more than $6,000 every year), and the odd jobs they pick up along the way provide the rest. If people are resourceful enough, they'll find a way.

 

[mtnlites]

We don't usually celebrate Valentine's day in our home. It is definitely no big deal and honestly wouldn't be remembered any differently than any other day for me. I think this is a very relative perspective. Jmo.

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I agree. How and if you celebrate a "holiday" (I don't consider Valentine's Day to be one) is subjective. We don't celebrate it in our house. I also believe that remembering doctors' appointments is subjective. Unless there was a gender reveal or it was the first ultrasound, she legitimately may not have remembered. I couldn't tell you if my husband was at any of mine (except for the gender reveal), and neither could he.

 

[Boxer]

its called food stamps. Any county in Indiana will give you diapers and formula for your baby. Handouts are everywhere. All you need is an address.

O/T Actually it's a form Aid to Families with Dependent Children --
The idea is to provide food for the kids of even the most reprehensible adults. (The sins of the father)
The USArmy is philosiphically responsible for AFDC -- they looked at the poor physical condition of recruits coming to them in WW1 and concluded that we couldn't fight wars unless the rural and industrial poor had better childhood nutrition and vaccinations -- they advocated for a basic safety net so they could expand a functional army when needed.

 

[Momma2cam]

I agree. How and if you celebrate a "holiday" (I don't consider Valentine's Day to be one) is subjective. We don't celebrate it in our house. I also believe that remembering doctors' appointments is subjective. Unless there was a gender reveal or it was the first ultrasound, she legitimately may not have remembered. I couldn't tell you if my husband was at any of mine (except for the gender reveal), and neither could he.

I thought about that after posting. Some women have numerous ultrasounds and others have 1-2. My husband only ever came to my 20 week anatomy scan but did not come to any other appointments or ultrasounds. If you're having an ultrasound every week or every couple weeks, it would be harder to recall details than if you have only 1-2 throughout all of pregnancy. Jmo.

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[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

I have no problems with the Greeno/ KN interview,as she knew who she was talking to. No doubt she is here. I had problems with the DN recorded telephone call.

KR
Reacher

RBBM

Reacher,

I have problems with that, too. For a lot of reasons. This has been nagging at me so I did some research.

https://www.rcfp.org/reporters-recording-guide/state-state-guide

Assuming DN did not consent to being taped, unfortunately IN and CO are both states where as long as one of the parties involved (in this case the interviewer) knows the conversation is being recorded, it isn’t illegal. This follows the Federal law of one party consent.

Do I think throwing it online for the world to hear is right?
OH. ****. NO.

JMO.

 

[DarkSkink]

Respectfully, this is based on a whole lot of assumption. We don't know what assistance they received nor how their children were cared for. Being homeless by itself is not a crime but rather a symptom of poverty.

The children are now being monitored by the state and hopefully receiving therapy to help them get through this and any other traumatic experiences they've been through.

The Foster Care system is definitely overburdened and faulty but we do not have enough information to say that they "got away with" caring for their kids last. We don't know what CPS has done in the past with this family or what prior information was ever reported.

I'm seeing similar levels of confidence that DN is BG that was expressed about RL. Just leaves me scratching my head and giving more reason to sit back and consider the facts objectively as they are presented. So far, I'm not seeing DN confidently being BG. Jmo.

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I think it's naturally easier arguing the pros, rather than the cons, but you can't get at one without pointing out the other.

The presumption of innocence should, in theory, always be the foundation of all the discussions on WS. Once you make that assumption and hold that as a truth, then the actual discussions should be read in that context. He/She is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but look at this... look at that... does this mean this or that?

We don't have all the facts, particularly the crucial ones. Some of what is discussed is cold hard fact, and some is deduction based on those facts. There wouldn't be much discussion if it was all fact.

Poster 1: She gave an interview.

Potster 2: Yup.

Poster 3: Interview confirmed.

Some are comfortable putting their opinions out there to be debated, and some are sensitive. It doesn't make any opinion less valuable. A lot of the disagreement or discomfort is more from how something is read, rather than how it is written. The best way to arrive at an objective viewpoint is to scan a vast horizon. The whys. The what do you thinks. It helps expand that relative perspective.

Poster 1: I don't see DN as BG.

Poster 2: Yup.

Poster 3: Opinion confirmed.

... Or would the discussion be more meaningful if someone asked why DN couldn't be BG?