IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #79

[Jax49]

Ya got this right! And I found Mtnlites post a few pages back really hit the nail on the head as to why our sleuthing here may seem so slanted toward DN (to the chagrin of those who feel convinced he is NOT BG). The TOS here are quite confining. I remember back in Feb and March coming across other RSO online who bore striking similarities to BG IMO. I remain very suspicious of DN, but- to those who have alternative POI in mind, is there ANY way they CAN be alluded to here, if only by initials, to be discussed in ANY form or fashion? I would like to hear! Is it ONLY DN we can discuss or can we allude to others or other theories somehow within TOS? If not, and I don't say this will snark, maybe those who think BG could not POSSIBLY be DN, should avoid this thread until some new details come up in MSM? (Otherwise, will those people not continue to just become increasingly irritated reading here?)

It might be possible to obtain permission. Wouldn't hurt to try.

From the first post:

"IF YOU WANT TO POST ABOUT A REGISTERED SEX OFFENDER YOU MUST GET PERMISSION FIRST. Please send a PM to a moderator to gain that permission. "

Good luck.

 

[Steleheart]

ya got this right! And i found mtnlites post a few pages back really hit the nail on the head as to why our sleuthing here may seem so slanted toward dn (to the chagrin of those who feel convinced he is not bg). The tos here are quite confining. I remember back in feb and march coming across other rso online who bore striking similarities to bg imo. I remain very suspicious of dn, but- to those who have alternative poi in mind, is there any way they can be alluded to here, if only by initials, to be discussed in any form or fashion? i would like to hear! Is it only dn we can discuss or can we allude to others or other theories somehow within tos? if not, and i don't say this will snark, maybe those who think bg could not possibly be dn, should avoid this thread until some new details come up in msm? (otherwise, will those people not continue to just become increasingly irritated reading here?)

BBM:
My understanding is no. Only those named POI by LE or MSM are allowed for sleuthing. There may be others who come up on the internet, sure. If you have a RSO you want to consider, the first post in this thread tells how to handle that. State, suggest, allude, hint.... Let's not. I don't want to see the thread closed agaainn.

additionally, please don't state or suggest that you are privy to inside information, but either can't or won't discuss it.

if you can't post it, don't!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?65798-Etiquette-amp-Information

BBM:
JMO, I don't think this is for anyone but each individual to decide or suggest.To suggest staying away is to infer that this is only for DN discussion. It is not the DN thread - it is the Abby and Libby Thread. Anything can be discussed within TOS and everyone is free to scroll and roll. Questions should be addressed to Mods by the alert or by PM.

:cow: :moo:

 

[kizzykat]

Apologies if this is a rerun, I don't think it is though.(I went back to see if it was covered yet and don't see where it was.) GH released a video late on 12/23, about the time this thread was shut down. It's the route taken to the bridge when the girls were to be picked up and events that transpired immediately afterward with approximate times, and then possible routes BG took to exit the area. He focuses on the old RR track that we talked about awhile back. Incredible he got away, it was such a very tight timeline, makes me wonder again if he removed the girls and brought them back later. (Crazy risky, I know, but so was committing the crime right then and there.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAbZFHYWbc&feature=youtu.be

 

[mtnlites]

If not, and I don't say this will snark, maybe those who think BG could not POSSIBLY be DN, should avoid this thread until some new details come up in MSM? (Otherwise, will those people not continue to just become increasingly irritated reading here?)

I believe that quite a few of us have strayed from the thread and don't check in as often since DN talk took over, simply because there doesn't seem to be a lot to add. However, I would be upset if those who don't see the evidence against DN leave completely. If everyone agreed then this becomes an echo chamber-everyone just echoing back the same ideas and beliefs over and over again. What's great about a forum like this is that it was designed for people of all varying backgrounds, with varying ideas, to come together and sleuth. If it's ONLY a forum made of up people who think the same thing then you're basically just going around in circles.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Just did a quick analysis. 70 posts made in the last 24 hrs. 37 mentioned DN or KN, while 33 didn't.

This count obviously includes those stating they wished posters talked about them less.

I don't think 53% was OTT considering he is our only named POI and he was in court yesterday, so naturally it would be higher than normal.

 

[emptybottles]

which phone records though..DN's ? did he have a phone? KN's phone? it will show where they were for sure, compared to where they said they were...there can be a lot of information gleaned..A LOT ! how about the girls? these they have..the phones were pinging around, which is weird..

Yes he had a phone according to KN's FB posts. She said he was stalking her on FB and he certainly didn't have a desktop or laptop he kept hidden under a bridge.

 

[emptybottles]

Apologies if this is a rerun, I don't think it is though.(I went back to see if it was covered yet and don't see where it was.) GH released a video late on 12/23, about the time this thread was shut down. It's the route taken to the bridge when the girls were to be picked up and events that transpired immediately afterward with approximate times, and then possible routes BG took to exit the area. He focuses on the old RR track that we talked about awhile back. Incredible he got away, it was such a very tight timeline, makes me wonder again if he removed the girls and brought them back later. (Crazy risky, I know, but so was committing the crime right then and there.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAbZFHYWbc&feature=youtu.be

It is an incredibly tight timeline. But if he fled west across the wildlife preserve from the trail intersection where he was seen then it is possible to have committed the crime and have gotten away IMO.

 

[Auntkiki]

New to WS but have been following this case and appreciate reading the thoughtful discussion on this forum. Can someone tell me where I can locate the “do not sleuth list” mentioned? I looked around in this thread and in the TOS for info on these guidelines but could not locate. Thank you.

There was discussion in earlier threads then moderators put that subject on the do not sleuth list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FrostedGlass]

Apologies if this is a rerun, I don't think it is though.(I went back to see if it was covered yet and don't see where it was.) GH released a video late on 12/23, about the time this thread was shut down. It's the route taken to the bridge when the girls were to be picked up and events that transpired immediately afterward with approximate times, and then possible routes BG took to exit the area. He focuses on the old RR track that we talked about awhile back. Incredible he got away, it was such a very tight timeline, makes me wonder again if he removed the girls and brought them back later. (Crazy risky, I know, but so was committing the crime right then and there.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAbZFHYWbc&feature=youtu.be

It's always interesting to read his replies under his videos, too.

 

[Daey34]

I think the issue with phone records will be that they most likely used prepaid phones. Because who are we kidding...they didn't sign a contract with a carrier. Therefore, say you owned phone A at the time of the murders. Well, 10 months has passed, and you no longer have that phone. Prepaid phones are a dime a dozen and free with 1-3 months prepaid service usually. So as far as LE is concerned, DN and KN will never disclose the old phone numbers or prepaid lines they had. Those are long gone, and totally un-traceable unless LE has some inkling of the names of the accounts and which carriers they went through at Walmart or wherever their ridiculous phones came from.

I could go buy a prepaid phone today, use the name Sam Smith, then throw it away when I'm done with it or stop paying the bill (which judging by the Nations list of civil cases is the most likely scenario). When that happens, if LE came to question me about a crime that I was implicated in, I'm never going to tell them about my Sam Smith phone. And they'll never know, unless they subpoena every carrier out there and search for my name or addresses. Assuming I used my real name, which I wouldn't if I were of the Nations lifestyle and running from 10000 court cases. Again, who are we kidding...there are so many prepaid carriers. There are a million names and addresses they could have used. There are a million reasons why the carriers don't have to send those records with such a broad sweep. You have to have more than this to get a subpoena.

So it's just another "cannot include or exclude."

Yes he had a phone according to KN's FB posts. She said he was stalking her on FB and he certainly didn't have a desktop or laptop he kept hidden under a bridge.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I think the issue with phone records will be that they most likely used prepaid phones. Because who are we kidding...they didn't sign a contract with a carrier. Therefore, say you owned phone A at the time of the murders. Well, 10 months has passed, and you no longer have that phone. Prepaid phones are a dime a dozen and free with 1-3 months prepaid service usually. So as far as LE is concerned, DN and KN will never disclose the old phone numbers or prepaid lines they had. Those are long gone, and totally un-traceable unless LE has some inkling of the names of the accounts and which carriers they went through at Walmart or wherever their ridiculous phones came from.

I could go buy a prepaid phone today, use the name Sam Smith, then throw it away when I'm done with it or stop paying the bill (which judging by the Nations list of civil cases is the most likely scenario). When that happens, if LE came to question me about a crime that I was implicated in, I'm never going to tell them about my Sam Smith phone. And they'll never know, unless they subpoena every carrier out there and search for my name or addresses. Assuming I used my real name, which I wouldn't if I were of the Nations lifestyle and running from 10000 court cases. Again, who are we kidding...there are so many prepaid carriers. There are a million names and addresses they could have used. There are a million reasons why the carriers don't have to send those records with such a broad sweep. You have to have more than this to get a subpoena.

So it's just another "cannot include or exclude."

I don't think it is a lost cause. Look how quickly they tracked down the two suspects in the Sydney Loofe case? He bragged he had 20 phones. LE will have their SM records and their photos will have geolocation data and IP numbers. The Greenwood detectives stated they were trying to call DN so they already have one of his phone numbers. There must also be debit or credit card transactions too.
The only problem I see is if they have 100's of POI's and they have not prioritised them in any way then it could be a very long process. Why can't they use the eye witnesses to help prioritise and exclude them first?

 

[Steleheart]

New to WS but have been following this case and appreciate reading the thoughtful discussion on this forum. Can someone tell me where I can locate the “do not sleuth list” mentioned? I looked around in this thread and in the TOS for info on these guidelines but could not locate. Thank you.

Hello and :welcome6: Auntkiki!

Well aside from the guidelines spelled out in The Rules there are thread specific rules posted to individual cases. They can usually be found in the first few posts of every thread and are normally dependent on certain facts of the case. It's worth a read through the rules in general and specifically the Etiquette and Information portion. But there is no simple "Do not sleuth" list per se.

RE the geocache topic, it was disallowed in the early threads because members started sleuthing innocent people, comparing to BG, etc. Innocent people don't deserve to have their names plastered all over a true crime site just because of a hobby.
While that rule doesn't appear here, posters who have been here remember it so take their word for it. (unless someone wants to go back and find the Mod post, LOL... not me)

Happy Sleuthing!

 

[1&2&3]

I got the new iPhone for Christmas but did not want to sign a contract with my carrier. So I went with T-Mobile using a prepaid card.

I had to show my Drivers License as identification to purchase the card.

 

[Shiressleuth]

New to WS but have been following this case and appreciate reading the thoughtful discussion on this forum. Can someone tell me where I can locate the “do not sleuth list” mentioned? I looked around in this thread and in the TOS for info on these guidelines but could not locate. Thank you.

Welcome Auntkiki. I can't fully answer your question but think it was a decision made specifically regarding this thread only.
Generally we cannot sleuth friends or family of the victims. You should pick it all up as you go.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Let's pretend for just one moment that DN did not commit the Delphi murders and, therefore, he would have no reason to ditch his phone. Perhaps LE found it in the car in Colorado. Having no real use for it, maybe they gave it to Indiana LE, who then filed a Subpoena Duces Tecum for the records to see if it had any ties to Delphi. This is total speculation on my part.

Ives did file quite a few SDTs last summer and fall involving AT&T, TracFone d/b/a Simple Mobile, AT&T Wireless, AT&T, YouCaring, FB, , medical records. I assume they are not connected to Delphi due to the fact that they are still available for public viewing. If anything on Delphi is filed, I suspect a person would have to check for court filings at least on a daily basis to catch it.

 

[Deleted member 189081]

BBM:
My understanding is no. Only those named POI by LE or MSM are allowed for sleuthing. There may be others who come up on the internet, sure. If you have a RSO you want to consider, the first post in this thread tells how to handle that. State, suggest, allude, hint.... Let's not. I don't want to see the thread closed agaainn.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?65798-Etiquette-amp-Information

BBM:
JMO, I don't think this is for anyone but each individual to decide or suggest.To suggest staying away is to infer that this is only for DN discussion. It is not the DN thread - it is the Abby and Libby Thread. Anything can be discussed within TOS and everyone is free to scroll and roll. Questions should be addressed to Mods by the alert or by PM.

:cow: :moo:

As always thank you, I can't discuss it here but I really think the Geo caching aspect should be considered . I am finding WS quite stuffy for any ideas that that may not be presented in the MSM or LE. Its a shame because there are a lot of clever, educated, people who have alternative ideas and can agree to disagree quite amicably without naming people, posting pictures side by side and without accusing innocent people, Meanwhile we are allowed to micro Sleuth someone in custody that is not accused.

I don't get it

IMPO
KR
Reacher

 

[M. Kay]

Lance Benzel wrote another article today, so he elaborated on his tweet.

"Attorneys confirmed the plea talks Wednesday at a brief court appearance by Nations. The defendant is due to return to court at 10 a.m. Friday, at which time a deal could be announced, according to discussions in court. The judge overseeing the case suggested the hearing could again be postponed due to scheduling difficulties, however."

What exactly is the ongoing scheduling issue?
First a computer glitch. Twice that happened in elpaso county.

Then, this was put off twice so the Prosecutor could go over it. In December, she stated she was in another case and couldn't read the plea deal. So no one read the plea deal suggested by his atty since December 15th? Then today, we have another scheduling issue. And this time the judge says there may be another scheduling issue Friday, like he already knows...



About rescheduling court dates in Colorado, I hesitate to go on at length, yet briefly: I have a long-time friend whose daughter got in serious legal trouble in a metropolitan city in Colorado. Friend explained to me that daughter was continually passed from one county court to another, with multiple charges, so that she remained in a limbo. Others involved were charged and also shuttled around. Friend is no expert, but she discovered "this is the way they do it there," while they sort who the serious offenders are. One person involved went to prison eventually, and now her daughter has finally been released, even though she was involved in crime.

 

[kkdj]

I wonder if DN used public transit to get around in IN. Veterans get public transit for free.
Homeless too get it for free in CO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Aside from attempting to fit every piece of information directly to implicate DN or KN, reading this it appears to me the investigation is focusing on information collected from cell towers, then determining persons connected to the cellphone pings or usage. Once the identity is determined, then using cellphone information to validate alibis. If that's so, I'm very impressed at the energy invested into the deaths of Libby and Abby as back-tracking in that manner obviously requires an incredible amount of painstaking and detailed effort.

BBM

"........One thing they’ve been doing is conducting additional follow-up on information provided by working with technology, mainly from cell phones.

“Some investigators continue to dig deeper into backtracking what certain people were doing on February 13,” he said, of the information captured from cell phones in the area that day....."
http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_b323b47e-f01c-11e7-9eb8-6b73cc09415a.html

 

[mtnlites]

I wonder if DN used public transit to get around in IN. Veterans get public transit for free.
Homeless too get it for free in CO.

Public transportation in rural Indiana is sporadic, at best. The infrastructure is lacking. I don't know of anyone outside of Indianapolis proper, and maybe Gary, who depend upon it. Public buses don't even serve all the small towns anymore and, those that do, often only run once or twice a week.