IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 # 80

[ocgrad]

Agree. Another reason I can't imagine a vagrant panhandler attracted to the Delphi trail system in Febuary is the weather. Although it happened to be unseasonably warm on Feb 13, 2017 iirc it had snowed only a couple of days before which was the reason the river level had risen. When it's cold, there's probably even fewer people out walking.

Delphi's average daily high in Feb is only 39F, just above freezing, the low is 21F.
https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/delphi/indiana/united-states/usin0156

I believe many homeless people are attracted to parks and trails. Every area has homeless people and I think there is a real possibility that someone homeless would have been out that day panhandling for money or cigarettes because lots of people were out on the trail.

 

[ocgrad]

Panhandling doesn’t fit for me, I can’t see anybody going out of their way, to a trail in the woods to panhandle, not very lucrative. That’s something you do in the middle of town. IMO


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A lot of towns have ordinances and crack down on panhandlers. So real possible they might go to a well populated trail.

 

[ocgrad]

It's at 15:00 on the Gray Hughes video. Cody and Kelsi cross the bridge and go down to the houses. They found one person to talk to who hadn't seen anything.

I think it's only one house that you can really access from that private drive. There are houses nearby but are accessed via a different private drive. The video was a little unclear on exactly which house.

The private drive is a continuation of N625 W - you come to a gate with a lock and it's marked 'private'. I'm not sure how 'locked' it is now or was before the murders or what the protocols are for access.

A note about the gate. Just before you come to the gate, there are three houses set very close to the road (you can see this on Google Maps). Mentioning this because I'd think any weirdnesses would be noticed. Also note that these three houses are not so close to the bridge that Cody and Kelsey would have gone there in their initial search.

Although heading back toward those houses takes you toward Abby's house (on 625, about 1k from the gate) and this begs the question:

When did they first check to see if the girls had gone back to Abby's? When was her family first contacted about the missing girls and by whom? Does anyone know?

BP said she drove the two routes that Libby would have taken to walk toward home, but Abby's house was much closer to the bridge, so you think that would have been investigated but I've never seen any mention of that.

I have always felt the same and found it odd that there is never a mention of it. In addition I believe Libby's other grandparents (DG's dad) live at the end of the trail if you continue on the path that used to be the rail. But it's never been mentioned that they might have gone there either.

 

[Shiressleuth]

And was that on the afternoon of 13 Feb and were people at that home down the hill? If so did family and LE talk to them?

It's at 15:00 on the Gray Hughes video. Cody and Kelsi cross the bridge and go down to the houses. They found one person to talk to who hadn't seen anything.

I think it's only one house that you can really access from that private drive. There are houses nearby but are accessed via a different private drive. The video was a little unclear on exactly which house.

The private drive is a continuation of N625 W - you come to a gate with a lock and it's marked 'private'. I'm not sure how 'locked' it is now or was before the murders or what the protocols are for access.

A note about the gate. Just before you come to the gate, there are three houses set very close to the road (you can see this on Google Maps). Mentioning this because I'd think any weirdnesses would be noticed. Also note that these three houses are not so close to the bridge that Cody and Kelsey would have gone there in their initial search.

Although heading back toward those houses takes you toward Abby's house (on 625, about 1k from the gate) and this begs the question:

When did they first check to see if the girls had gone back to Abby's? When was her family first contacted about the missing girls and by whom? Does anyone know?

BP said she drove the two routes that Libby would have taken to walk toward home, but Abby's house was much closer to the bridge, so you think that would have been investigated but I've never seen any mention of that.

Very interesting. I have never seen any of this discussed before . Have we just missed the discussions? Excellent point about driving from private drive to AW's house and whether that has ever been done or discussed as well.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I have always felt the same and found it odd that there is never a mention of it. In addition I believe Libby's other grandparents (DG's dad) live at the end of the trail if you continue on the path that used to be the rail. But it's never been mentioned that they might have gone there either.

About how far along the old rail line can you get from the south end of the bridge? Is it a public trail or not?

 

[Deleted member 189081]

All he had to do, and which he obviously did do, was observe that no one else chose the trail to the bridge before or after A&L, and that no one was on that trail behind him. A simple observation and he easily assessed that there was no risk of being seen.

How on earth would he do that. FGS he was nowhere to be seen in Libby's photo of Abby. He didn't just appear from nowhere and that is what actually bothers me about the sequence of photos and video still. Where was BG in the photo?

KR
Reacher

 

[Tragic]

Doesn't sound like any Carolinan, Georgian, or deep southern person I know.

I am from Florida, never had an accent and after twenty years of living in TN.. I, partially have a southern accent with certain words.

I have a friend from Chicago, similar situation as I.. Even with symbolic terms from our childhood, him "pop" (for soda) or, I with "sneakers"/"crayon" (not tennis shoes/cray-yawn) we both have developed a accent with certain words.

Nothing is black and white.

 

[BIC]

How on earth would he do that. FGS he was nowhere to be seen in Libby's photo of Abby. He didn't just appear from nowhere and that is what actually bothers me about the sequence of photos and video still. Where was BG in the photo?

KR
Reacher

Maybe the girls passed him on the way to the bridge, he saw them start over the bridge, then he checked to see if other people were coming, then proceeded over the bridge. IMO

 

[Jerrod]

About how far along the old rail line can you get from the south end of the bridge? Is it a public trail or not?

Review GH's "Derrick's Path" YouTube video that was posted December 23rd. At the 22:30 mark, he points out the 5 various points of egress from the crime scene. At the 23:30 mark, your question is addressed: The trail continues SE from the end of the bridge until it ends at W 200 N. The distance from the SE end of the bridge to W 200 N is approximately 9/10's of a mile.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Review GH's "Derrick's Path" YouTube video that was posted December 23rd. At the 22:30 mark, he points out the 5 various points of egress from the crime scene. At the 23:30 mark, your question is addressed: The trail continues SE from the end of the bridge until it ends at W 200 N. The distance from the SE end of the bridge to W 200 N is approximately 9/10's of a mile.

TY. Why hasn't this been discussed before? Or have I just missed it somewhere in the 80 threads ?

 

[her]

Maybe the girls passed him on the way to the bridge, he saw them start over the bridge, then he checked to see if other people were coming, then proceeded over the bridge. IMO

Review GH's "Derrick's Path" YouTube video that was posted December 23rd. At the 22:30 mark, he points out the 5 various points of egress from the crime scene. At the 23:30 mark, your question is addressed: The trail continues SE from the end of the bridge until it ends at W 200 N. The distance from the SE end of the bridge to W 200 N is approximately 9/10's of a mile.

I really think that’s what went down BIC and GH video really nails it in a nice package sums it up.

 

[Deleted member 196796]

Maybe the girls passed him on the way to the bridge, he saw them start over the bridge, then he checked to see if other people were coming, then proceeded over the bridge. IMO

I've studied all the satellite imagery there is and especially with no foliage on the trees, many stand off points that afforded BG clear line of sight in both directions. From what I have read in other post it takes 3 minutes to cross the bridge if you are moving with a purpose. Also with what AW Mom stated maybe AW was already injured and BG saw her fall and get hurt and moved in with hast? BG knew his advantage points throughout the area, thus been there before. IMO

Additional thought: looking at the imagery BG just didn't have them cross the creek in the shallow water, but it appears to be around the bend far enough as not to be in the line of sight from the bridge. This entire scheme seems so planned out. I'm not so sure he would actually be teaming up with anyone else, I'm calling him a lone wolf.

 

[passepartout]

Another reason I can't imagine a vagrant panhandler attracted to the Delphi trail system...

The vagrant/homeless/drifter idea makes no sense because whoever did this had to have familiarity with the terrain and the high bridge area. Even when you have maps and think you have a good idea of what you're looking for, it's not all that easy to find the bridge. As I've said on here before, mobile google maps gives you directions that take you to the locked gate. We did a fair amount of backtracking and arguing before we got to the trailhead.

Whoever did this knew to intercept on the SE side of the bridge, to go 'down the hill', to (likely) cross the creek at a shallow point, etc. And he knew how to get out of there.

Even if you had it all planned out on the map, you wouldn't know where the creek was shallow or that you could go down the hill to the private drive and then across to where the bodies were found and out from there via the cemetery (without being seen by bridge traffic). You had to know the area and you had to know it well. Even more so for all of this to happen in such a tight timeframe with no witnesses hearing or seeing.

 

[Shiressleuth]

So DG saw an old guy in a plaid shirt who said he hadn't seen the girls and no other witnesses saw BG except for the woman mentioned by Sgt Holeman who assisted with the sketch composite. That woman may have seen him before the murders.
So except for the girls and that woman, no one saw him, therefore exiting from the South along 625w or the old RR trail or via the cemetery seem to be the main possibilities . :cow:

 

[HockeyMom330]

All he had to do, and which he obviously did do, was observe that no one else chose the trail to the bridge before or after A&L, and that no one was on that trail behind him. A simple observation and he easily assessed that there was no risk of being seen.

I think BG acutually came from the SE end of the bridge/trail system (the direction L & A were heading), which is contrary to the GH theory and crime flow video that suggests he noticed them near their drop off point and followed them across the bridge from the North end.

If BG came out of the SE end he would know for sure that there was nobody in the vicinity of the place where he ultimately took them 'down the hill'. I think he crossed paths with the girls on the bridge, heading in opposite diretions, as they were getting close to the end of the SE side. As he was walking past them I think he probably kept checking behind him to make sure nobody had come on the bridge. I think the first passing was uneventful, but obviously the girls would notice him in such a tight space. I think he walked just far enough past the girls in the North direction to determine that nobody else was approaching on the bridge from that end, and then when he felt confident he turned around and started to follow the girls. I think when the girls saw that he was coming back towards them at a quick pace, it would be the time/reason that they felt they were in danger. Maybe they tried to hurry off the bridge to get away and Libby made it across faster. At that point BG closed in on Abby while Libby started to record with her phone instead of fleeing (hence the girls sticking together). I think BG wanted to get the girls off the bridge and main trail asap so a witness wouldn't interfere with his plan, hence his direction to go 'down the hill'. By taking them off the beaten path he got them out of sight and even more isolated.

People have used the word 'brazen' about the crime--and rightly so as it happened in broad daylight in a public place, with 2 victims etc.. But I also feel BG was very impulsive. I don't think he stalked the girls across the bridge and hatched a perfect plan of attack. I think he came upon them somewhat randomly and acted impulsively on some sick urges. I don't think a lot of time passed between his first encounter with them and their murders. I think he initially used a weapon (such as a gun) to gain control of both victims and have them cooperate but I also believe that at some point the girls started to fight back or try to run. I think he then panicked realizing he couldn't contain them both, so killed them both, possibly by shooting them. This type of murder could be done from a distance, thus limiting the amount of DNA transfer and reducing the liklihood that he would walk away from the crime scene covered in blood. I don't think he had time to sexually assault either girl, even if that was his motive.

As I've said before in previous posts, BG made a lot of mistakes. Where would we be today if we didn't have BG's image and voice on Libby's phone? Where would be without a composite sketch based on eyewitness interactions with BG? Where would be if the bodies were not found (or not found quickly enough to determine COD and collect evidence)?

 

[carbuff]

I think BG acutually came from the SE end of the bridge/trail system (the direction L & A were heading), which is contrary to the GH theory and crime flow video that suggests he noticed them near their drop off point and followed them across the bridge from the North end.

If BG came out of the SE end he would know for sure that there was nobody in the vicinity of the place where he ultimately took them 'down the hill'. I think he crossed paths with the girls on the bridge, heading in opposite diretions, as they were getting close to the end of the SE side. As he was walking past them I think he probably kept checking behind him to make sure nobody had come on the bridge. I think the first passing was uneventful, but obviously the girls would notice him in such a tight space. I think he walked just far enough past the girls in the North direction to determine that nobody else was approaching on the bridge from that end, and then when he felt confident he turned around and started to follow the girls. I think when the girls saw that he was coming back towards them at a quick pace, it would be the time/reason that they felt they were in danger. Maybe they tried to hurry off the bridge to get away and Libby made it across faster. At that point BG closed in on Abby while Libby started to record with her phone instead of fleeing (hence the girls sticking together). I think BG wanted to get the girls off the bridge and main trail asap so a witness wouldn't interfere with his plan, hence his direction to go 'down the hill'. By taking them off the beaten path he got them out of sight and even more isolated.

People have used the word 'brazen' about the crime--and rightly so as it happened in broad daylight in a public place, with 2 victims etc.. But I also feel BG was very impulsive. I don't think he stalked the girls across the bridge and hatched a perfect plan of attack. I think he came upon them somewhat randomly and acted impulsively on some sick urges. I don't think a lot of time passed between his first encounter with them and their murders. I think he initially used a weapon (such as a gun) to gain control of both victims and have them cooperate but I also believe that at some point the girls started to fight back or try to run. I think he then panicked realizing he couldn't contain them both, so killed them both, possibly by shooting them. This type of murder could be done from a distance, thus limiting the amount of DNA transfer and reducing the liklihood that he would walk away from the crime scene covered in blood. I don't think he had time to sexually assault either girl, even if that was his motive.

As I've said before in previous posts, BG made a lot of mistakes. Where would we be today if we didn't have BG's image and voice on Libby's phone? Where would be without a composite sketch based on eyewitness interactions with BG? Where would be if the bodies were not found (or not found quickly enough to determine COD and collect evidence)?

I tend to agree with you about most of this.

I think the guy's a predator. He doesn't see the world the same way the rest of us do. He's on the hunt, ready to leap at opportunity. He probably notices things like escape routes and line of sight automatically, without even having to think about it. If there's danger of getting caught, that might even add to the thrill.

 

[ocgrad]

About how far along the old rail line can you get from the south end of the bridge? Is it a public trail or not?

I have seen locals post that it runs all the way to W200N. But it may be mostly unused however you can see it clearly on the satellite view in maps.

 

[MistyWaters]

Watching GH's video, I was surprised how extremely close the driveway was beneath the end of the bridge, where Libby recorded the video and "down the hill". As the crow flies, the private drive, before it bends toward the residence, leads almost directly to the river and the area where the bodies were discovered. Where the private driveway runs under the bridge does not appear to be visable from the residence.

The POI location is also identified here - Post #96 Map by "No It's Not"
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...Liberty-German-14-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-13/page7

My current theory, a slight deviation from GH's.

This tragedy was a planned abduction and the suspect knew the girls were heading to the bridge to take photos. Possibly via SM.
1. Suspect parks in the public parking area waiting for the girls to get dropped off.
2. After they arrive he drives to the private driveway and parks near or beneath the bridge with the intent to kidnap them from the bridge, into his vehicle.
3. Suspect crosses bridge and at a site unseen, waits for Abby and Libby to start walking on the bridge.
4. Suspect crosses back over the bridge, behind the girls, when they are near the end.
5. Towards the end of the bridge he attracts their attention, pulls a gun and orders them "down the hill" toward the vehicle.
6. The girls resist, and eventually flee partway down the private driveway and then directly across the river. Once they've crossed, the suspect abandons the abduction and shoots to kill, leaving no witnesses.
7. Suspect leaves the scene.

From the time the girls get to the end of the bridge, events take place very quickly, possibly in less than 10 minutes. The suspect was sighted before the murders walking around or near the parking lot area as he was waiting.

Just my opinion......

 

[BIC]

I've studied all the satellite imagery there is and especially with no foliage on the trees, many stand off points that afforded BG clear line of sight in both directions. From what I have read in other post it takes 3 minutes to cross the bridge if you are moving with a purpose. Also with what AW Mom stated maybe AW was already injured and BG saw her fall and get hurt and moved in with hast? BG knew his advantage points throughout the area, thus been there before. IMO

Additional thought: looking at the imagery BG just didn't have them cross the creek in the shallow water, but it appears to be around the bend far enough as not to be in the line of sight from the bridge. This entire scheme seems so planned out. I'm not so sure he would actually be teaming up with anyone else, I'm calling him a lone wolf.

I agree with you. The only thing I think some people are getting wrong is, Abby’s Mom said they thought maybe one of the girls got hurt, and the other wouldn’t leave them there alone, so that was why they were missing. She wasn’t referring to the murders, she was referring to what they thought could have been the reason they were missing before they were found.


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[DeDee]

DG did not go to homes along the Private Drive. Tara and Cody did that. It's in Gray Hughes video where he explains Derrick's route.

Derrick took a short cut path to the creek's edge. Then, walked to Freedom Bridge. DG never walked across MHB. DG never went to MHB. Tara and Cody did both of those, too.

I need to edit this post.

It was 3:14. The short path that DG took is known as the 505 trail that curves and leads down to the creek. DG went back to his vehicle. DG called Becky at 3:30 before going to the Freedom Bridge. Then, he walked back to where the 505 trail intersects.

Tara and DG were joined because Tara arrived around 4. Kelsi did not go to work for her 4:00 shift. Kelsi went to the bridge.

Cody arrived about 4:20 with Becky. It was Kelsi and Cody who walked across the high bridge and to the homes along the Private Drive. They found one resident at home.

Becky called Mike at 4:00 and again at 4:18. Mike arrived at the Mears property at 5:00 and spoke to them. MP called a friend who is a police officer. Mike walked to where Becky was. They phoned 911 around 5::20.


A point of interest is that a witness claimed to have seen BG wearing a scarf. BP, the guy who phoned in the false bomb threat to IP, drew a sketch of BG wearing a scarf and sent it to a reporter with the Journal.