IN - Four sisters, ages 5-11, die in Flora house fire, Nov 2016

[FrostedGlass]

Oops, I was a day ahead of myself. Sorry @FrostedGlass!

I'm trying to get someone to watch it in case I don't last until 11 pm.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Oops, I was a day ahead of myself. Sorry @FrostedGlass!

And that would be 2 days ahead of yourself. Tomorrow night is when it will run.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the Delphi case shows - not for the first time! - that the usual suspects are not who the real culprit turns to be. (Can't predict, but my intuition tells me that the same will be true with the Moscow case).

I think the same might happen with Flora. LE implies that GR might know more - what if she doesn't? She obviously was so scared and depressed that she moved away. I can't believe that LE can't find anyone, maybe from a Californian group, who would be able to sit down with GR and talk normally to her, in a human way. She wants justice for her girls, she is just hopeless. It has to be done. Four girls, and it never became as big a case as the Delphi one. It should have been.

I‘m really late on this reply but I didn’t get the impression LE expected GR to simply hand over a name of the arsonist to LE to make their job easier. They would want to know from her who she was associated with, who visited her house, who might’ve had a grievance with her, etc so they could look at the circle of people in her life at that time. That’s always where an investigation begins because odds are the arsonist was someone she knew or someone who knew of her. I have to wonder why she wasn’t willing to work with LE. If it involved fear it could either be fear of LE or fear of retaliation from parties she might name. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I‘m really late on this reply but I didn’t get the impression LE expected GR to simply hand over a name of the arsonist to LE to make their job easier. They would want to know from her who she was associated with, who visited her house, who might’ve had a grievance with her, etc so they could look at the circle of people in her life at that time. That’s always where an investigation begins because odds are the arsonist was someone she knew or someone who knew of her. I have to wonder why she wasn’t willing to work with LE. If it involved fear it could either be fear of LE or fear of retaliation from parties she might name. JMO

Could be fear, could be PTSD, or maybe she is so hopeless that she is simply living in passivity, whatever happens.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Watched this on tv last night. The second story was confusing because of the upstairs landing. It was all very intense. I hope they find out who was responsible for the fire.

Dashboard camera video reveals rescue attempt in deadly Flora fire

In just 20 minutes, Carroll County Deputy Drew Yoder put his life on the line, twice. He entered and then re-entered a burning building in the town of Flora attempting to rescue four young girls tr…

cbs4indy.com

 

[TL4S]

Watched this on tv last night. The second story was confusing because of the upstairs landing. It was all very intense. I hope they find out who was responsible for the fire.

Dashboard camera video reveals rescue attempt in deadly Flora fire

In just 20 minutes, Carroll County Deputy Drew Yoder put his life on the line, twice. He entered and then re-entered a burning building in the town of Flora attempting to rescue four young girls tr…

cbs4indy.com

I'm glad GR was allowed to have a say in whether this footage was released. The only way I see this helping find the arsonists is if someone who knows something sees it and is gut-wrenched into talking. I hope they find the person responsible too.

 

[chaz]

Watched this on tv last night. The second story was confusing because of the upstairs landing. It was all very intense. I hope they find out who was responsible for the fire.

Dashboard camera video reveals rescue attempt in deadly Flora fire

In just 20 minutes, Carroll County Deputy Drew Yoder put his life on the line, twice. He entered and then re-entered a burning building in the town of Flora attempting to rescue four young girls tr…

cbs4indy.com

I cannot access this article in my region. Can someone give a synopsis? TIA

 

[Megnut]

I cannot access this article in my region. Can someone give a synopsis? TIA

It's brutal.

One responding police officer could bot get through the toxic fumes and raced to the firehouse to don fire gear, if I understand it correctly. They just couldn't get to the girls in time. Awful, awful, awful.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

When Yoder went back inside the second time, I wonder what happened:

"Crawling on hands and knees, Yoder and Disinger went back through the front door. Smoke was pouring through the door and visible flames were starting to work toward the cops from the back of the house.

Inside just two minutes, something went gone wrong."

“Someone! Help! (screaming).”

 

[FrostedGlass]

I believe this is the first set of stairs, then the second one leading to the bedroom.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm glad GR was allowed to have a say in whether this footage was released. The only way I see this helping find the arsonists is if someone who knows something sees it and is gut-wrenched into talking. I hope they find the person responsible too.

I hope they find who was responsible too. It seems like this house was a fire trap especially with no working smoke detectors. If the deaths of the four girls was deliberately intended that’s why I think it’s likely the perp must’ve been familiar with the layout of the interior of the home. JMO

 

[TL4S]

I hope they find who was responsible too. It seems like this house was a fire trap especially with no working smoke detectors. If the deaths of the four girls was deliberately intended that’s why I think it’s likely the perp must’ve been familiar with the layout of the interior of the home. JMO

I'd have to look back, but I believe DC said they do not believe the girls' deaths were intentional, but the fire was started intentionally. I would imagine the charge would be similar to Delphi, maybe, with what is essentially felony murder? What do you think?

 

[MistyWaters]

I'd have to look back, but I believe DC said they do not believe the girls' deaths were intentional, but the fire was started intentionally. I would imagine the charge would be similar to Delphi, maybe, with what is essentially felony murder? What do you think?

Yes I think it would be, assuming the act of arson is considered a felony subject to no ”wobble”.

Indiana Arson Laws - FindLaw

FindLaw's article on Indiana Arson Laws. For more information on this and related topics, see FindLaw's section on Indiana Criminal Laws.

www.findlaw.com

“Indiana doesn't divide arson into degrees, but the state does have different felony levels for arson offenses. Level 2 is the highest level for arson and carries the highest penalties and Level 6 is the least serious offense with the least severe penalties. It's considered a "wobbler" offense, which means that the crime can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony.”

 

[FrostedGlass]

I hope they find who was responsible too. It seems like this house was a fire trap especially with no working smoke detectors. If the deaths of the four girls was deliberately intended that’s why I think it’s likely the perp must’ve been familiar with the layout of the interior of the home. JMO

Indiana has a smoke detector law for rentals. Landlords have a form for their tenants to fill out, verifying there are working ones in the dwelling at the time of move-in.

Tenants are generally responsible for replacing batteries and are notorious for removing them and not replacing them. Smoke detectors are really inexpensive and if a tenant did have a bad landlord, the tenant could still buy at least one and nail it to the wall.

I don't remember if this landlord had any legal charges against him regarding the smoke detectors.

 

[MistyWaters]

Indiana has a smoke detector law for rentals. Landlords have a form for their tenants to fill out, verifying there are working ones in the dwelling at the time of move-in.

Tenants are generally responsible for replacing batteries and are notorious for removing them and not replacing them. Smoke detectors are really inexpensive and if a tenant did have a bad landlord, the tenant could still buy at least one and nail it to the wall.

I don't remember if this landlord had any legal charges against him regarding the smoke detectors.

I don’t recall any charges being laid not have I noticed any news reports regarding the status of this wrongful death lawsuit.

Product liability lawsuit dismissed in Flora fire case

There's a surprising new development in the Flora fire investigation that claimed the lives of four sisters.

www.wthr.com

“….While the federal product liability claims go away, Rose will continue to pursue a "wrongful death lawsuit" against her former landlords.
The home she rented was owned by Birch Tree Holdings, a company operated by former Flora City Councilman Joshua Ayers and his business partner Troy Helderman.

According to that lawsuit, Ayers, Helderman and Birch Tree Holdings, LLC failed "to provide a safe and habitable property." and "acted with gross negligence."
At the core of the complaint are allegations that the landlords failed to install, replace or repair smoke detectors as required by Indiana Code 22-11-18-3.5, which requires landlords and property owners to provide working smoke detectors.
The lawsuit claims, "As a result of the failure to equip the Property with any functioning smoke detectors, Rose's four minor children ...died from smoke inhalation.

Rose, who faced questions herself about the fire said her landlords' negligence is to blame for the death of her girls. She also said she raised questions about malfunctioning electrical outlets in the kitchen and a non-locking back door. Efforts to repair the outlets and a leaky kitchen ceiling two weeks before the fire were reportedly unsuccessful, according to Rose…..”

 

[FrostedGlass]

@MistyWaters This one is still ongoing; in it, a federal lawsuit is referenced:

Property-Owners Insurance Company, Owners Insurance Company v. Joshua Ayres, Melissa Ayres, Gaylin Rose
Case Number 08C01-1904-PL-000007
Court Carroll Circuit Court
Type PL - Civil Plenary
Filed 04/04/2019
Status 04/04/2019 , Pending (active)

The reference to the federal case:
"Defendants Joshua Ayres and Melissa Ayres (collectively, the “Ayres”), by counsel Jonathan A. Bont, hereby files their notice with this court regarding the status of the federal lawsuit. The court in the federal lawsuit denied the Defendants’ Motions to Reconsider the Court’s Entry on Summary Judgment. A settlement conference has been set for December 7, 2022."

Here is the federal case. I haven't been following either one. The only things this one shows is a change of address for 2 individuals whose names I'm not familiar with.

Rose v. Birch Tree Holdings, LLC et al (2:18-cv-00197), Indiana Northern District Court

Rose v. Birch Tree Holdings, LLC et al (2:18-cv-00197), Indiana Northern District Court, Filed: 05/18/2018

www.pacermonitor.com

 

[JnRyan]

As to why the mother has quite talking it may be related to the confusing nature of what a FD investigation found, the state investigator and a private investigator have individually come up with.

Flora fatal fire investigator quits after questions arise about case

Arrests have yet to be made in connection to the fire.

www.wishtv.com

Later this comes out and ISP Superintendent Carter quits talking to the public about it.

Emails confirm top Homeland Security leaders knew of concerns over Flora fire investigation

Top leaders at the Indiana Department of Homeland Security knew there were serious questions about the findings into the Flora fire investigation early on, but failed to respond to the serious claims or to share them with Indiana State Police Inve...

www.wthr.com

 

[Ssschu]

As to why the mother has quite talking it may be related to the confusing nature of what a FD investigation found, the state investigator and a private investigator have individually come up with.

Flora fatal fire investigator quits after questions arise about case

Arrests have yet to be made in connection to the fire.

www.wishtv.com

Later this comes out and ISP Superintendent Carter quits talking to the public about it.

Emails confirm top Homeland Security leaders knew of concerns over Flora fire investigation

Top leaders at the Indiana Department of Homeland Security knew there were serious questions about the findings into the Flora fire investigation early on, but failed to respond to the serious claims or to share them with Indiana State Police Inve...

www.wthr.com

Wow! So this tells me it was not arson so there was no crime committed. Why is this still being swept under the rug by the ISP (who refuses to talk about it anymore) when all of this info came out years ago??

 

[FrostedGlass]

Wow! So this tells me it was not arson so there was no crime committed. Why is this still being swept under the rug by the ISP (who refuses to talk about it anymore) when all of this info came out years ago??

I think this is how that issue was concluded:
Posted: Jun 22, 2017 / 04:44 PM EDT
Updated: Jun 22, 2017 / 10:09 PM EDT

"After further investigation, it was discovered that accelerants were only found in one part of the home, which means there’s only one place where the fire started."

ISP confirms Flora house fire that killed four young girls had one spot with accelerants, not several

FLORA, Ind.– Police say some initial details released to the public regarding a house fire in Flora that killed four young girls were incorrect. The fire claimed the lives of four young siste…

fox59.com

 

[Ssschu]

I think this is how that issue was concluded:
Posted: Jun 22, 2017 / 04:44 PM EDT
Updated: Jun 22, 2017 / 10:09 PM EDT

"After further investigation, it was discovered that accelerants were only found in one part of the home, which means there’s only one place where the fire started."

ISP confirms Flora house fire that killed four young girls had one spot with accelerants, not several

FLORA, Ind.– Police say some initial details released to the public regarding a house fire in Flora that killed four young girls were incorrect. The fire claimed the lives of four young siste…

fox59.com

That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification!