IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[LietKynes]

My Canon has a sturdy strap attached and I am still hesitant to look out over any height for fear of dropping and losing my camera.
And that's something replaceable.

It's nice to believe Chloe's somewhere beautiful now ; far away from the cares and sorrows of this world.
But it's not much comfort.
She deserved to live a full life.

 

[mickey2942]

That puts the defense in an awkward position as far as the parents are concerned, but I think that's one reason for where they're going. They will probably find numerous ways around it. A defense attorney's job is to be zealous in his representation. I'm not saying they're planning to outright lie but there seem to be a lot of ways they can say there was an impairment that was not then known. Or just stick to the insistence that in his mind he thought there was glass. They can't prove what was in his mind. It seems like he insists on this despite apparently having his hands outside of the window. I think the PR prosecutors know the case is backed up. But why is it getting this far without a plea?

Legal experts, how likely do you think it is that there will be a plea arrangement? I think it will happen soon.

I am not a legal expert, but if he takes a plea deal, it seems to me that he would be admitting "guilt" or "negligence". Which will completely blow up the civil lawsuit against Royal Caribbean Cruise Line, the parents are adamant that the cruise line is at fault.

 

[oviedo]

I am not a legal expert, but if he takes a plea deal, it seems to me that he would be admitting "guilt" or "negligence". Which will completely blow up the civil lawsuit against Royal Caribbean Cruise Line, the parents are adamant that the cruise line is at fault.

Yes I agree - rccl could use that plea IMO so I think the next few weeks will be interesting - let’s remember there is no lawsuit filed yet - why not ?

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes I agree - rccl could use that plea IMO so I think the next few weeks will be interesting - let’s remember there is no lawsuit filed yet - why not ?

I suspect the family is hoping the lawsuit is settled before it's even filed. If they are offered a settlement, there is less chance he will be found guilty if he goes to trial.

I think the only reason for the lawsuit is to keep the grandfather out of prison.

But if the cruise line does not offer them compensation and he goes to trial, he would be better off just admitting he alone is at fault.

They still may offer him a deal and he could plead to a lesser charge, depending on the evidence.

Or, I suppose he could be sentenced to three years in prison at the worst.

Imo

 

[oviedo]

I suspect the family is hoping the lawsuit is settled before it's even filed. If they are offered a settlement, there is less chance he will be found guilty if he goes to trial.

I think the only reason for the lawsuit is to keep the grandfather out of prison.

But if the cruise line does not offer them compensation and he goes to trial, he would be better off just admitting he alone is at fault.

They still may offer him a deal and he could plead to a lesser charge, depending on the evidence.

Or, I suppose he could be sentenced to three years in prison at the worst.

Imo

That’s what I’m thinking / there may be a settlement agreement before a lawsuit is filed but that would not be publicized so RCCL doesn’t really have a reason to do this IMO - but a plea deal would halt the publicity and since no lawsuit has been filed yet / this makes the most sense to me
JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

That’s what I’m thinking / there may be a settlement agreement before a lawsuit is filed but that would not be publicized so RCCL doesn’t really have a reason to do this IMO - but a plea deal would halt the publicity and since no lawsuit has been filed yet / this makes the most sense to me
JMO

Yeah, I think they are just waiting to see what happens. They are probably hoping to avoid filing at all.
When is his next court date?

 

[al66pine]

Jail, Because? Freak Accident? Significance of Traffic Tickets?

....I absolutely believe this was not intentional. Do we just want the guy in jail because he followed the advice of his attorney to blame RCCL? ...

I can definitely see someone holding a child up to look out a window and it turning into a freak accident. I've always assumed they had some more evidence to be prosecuting him criminally. But it's not looking like that. I just don't get what seems to be so much dislike for this man though as if he really did it on purpose.
And he has some tickets? That means C's parent's were stupid to let him watch her on a cruise ship? If any of my parents or in laws have any tickets I would have no idea. How would I know unless I was there when it happened or they went out of their way to let me know they'd gotten a ticket for not wearing their seatbelt?

. @beatrixpotter sbm bbm Respectfully, some other thoughts on these points.

1) "want the guy in jail because he followed the advice of his attorney to blame RCCL?"
Some here would like to see him in jail, b/c of their perceptions of how the events occurred, that is, that seeing G'father as reckless in the way he held Chloe, how he positioned her, and lost his grasp on her, causing her death. Perceptions that developed early after Chloe's death, waaay before G'father & Winkleman's stmts in past couple weeks. Their recent stmts only reinforced the beliefs of these posters. Some ppl withhold judgment, waiting for trial.
{{{ETA: He's not going to prison, based on opinions on this website. Trial will include video evidence, which we have not seen. If he's imprisoned, it's going to be by jury/judge decision.}}}
2) Some believe what happened was not a freak accident, but the result of negligence combining w gravity that caused a foreseeable death. What about this? Ship at dock, both G'father & Chloe stand on Deck 11 floor; underwater volcano/tsunami erupt, causing ship to lurch violently; they are both thrown into the air. From standing w both feet on floor, Chloe is tossed 4 1/2 feet up thru open window, falls 100+ ft to her death. <-------- That is a freak accident; I doubt many here would try to pin blame on G'father, if something like it, totally/virtually unforeseeable/unpredictable, had happened.
3) Getting tickets is not the point. The series of tickets merely document over a period of 15+ yrs (nearly 20?) that G'father ignored a basic safety measure/precaution, wearing a safety belt (& shoulder harness?). What are the chances that he religiously used SB & SH every time he drove, except to the 5 - 6 times he was cited? Not sure what else these tickets predict/indicate about his attitude & actions on July 7.

I'm just glad the cruiseline had video on July 7, as those actions are the critical point in the crim trial.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did parents know about tickets or non-SB/SH? Not directly relevant to G'father's culpability. He cannot use this as defense to crim charge "Oh, the parents knew I am/was reckless, never use my seat belt, never belt Chloe into child/baby seat, let her go free range when I take her to the zoo or the mall. Parents knew; they're cool w that. They'd have no objection to dangling or sitting her on the window sill."

 

[justice4allnow]

My Canon has a sturdy strap attached and I am still hesitant to look out over any height for fear of dropping and losing my camera.
And that's something replaceable.

It's nice to believe Chloe's somewhere beautiful now ; far away from the cares and sorrows of this world.
But it's not much comfort.
She deserved to live a full life.

Justice for Chloe.

 

[justice4allnow]

RIIIIIIIIGHT.....

And we have seen in the photos of the windows on the ship, that since the glass slides to one side to open, a portion of the window, including the handle, still remains within the first window frame when opened. It is not completely glass-free when open. Several inches of the window remain in the original frame and thus indicate an open window.

 

[justbreathe]

I just came across this on the ABC News site:

Anello said that he initially blamed himself for his granddaughter’s death, but now believes the cruise line should have had a sign posted warning that windows in the area where she fell could be open.

If there was such a sign, he said, “this wouldn’t have happened.”

He INITIALLY blamed himself?
But.. what? Now he doesn't?
SMH .... ugh!

This! This comment disgusted me. So, like, this guy is saying he DOES NOT BLAME HIMSELF. What? You...don’t blame yourself after you dripped her out a window? How could he utter those words? How? He is quite a piece of work.

 

[justbreathe]

From the CBS News site:

Initially, Anello said he blamed himself.

"I couldn't help but blame myself. But I know that, I know that if there was a sign, if there was something that indicated there was a chance for that window to be an opening, that this wouldn't happen," Anello said.

Anello says he now blames the cruise line.

"I just want them to fix the boat. Just fix it. Just fix the boat."

“Fix the boat.” What a jackass. I wonder if he actually believes what he is saying?

 

[al66pine]

Civil Lawsuit and Crim Trial?

I suspect the family is hoping the lawsuit is settled before it's even filed. If they are offered a settlement, there is less chance he will be found guilty if he goes to trial.
I think the only reason for the lawsuit is to keep the grandfather out of prison.
But if the cruise line does not offer them compensation and he goes to trial, he would be better off just admitting he alone is at fault.
They still may offer him a deal and he could plead to a lesser charge, depending on the evidence.
Or, I suppose he could be sentenced to three years in prison at the worst.
Imo

. @MsBetsy You've got me scratching my head again.

From you:"I think the only reason for the lawsuit is to keep the grandfather out of prison."
Could you pls explain how or why parents' civil lawsuit against cruiseline would keep g'fa out of prison? I must be missing something here. TiA.

 

[justbreathe]

A sign huh?

Like a speed limit sign?
Like a seatbelt sign?
Like a yield sign?
Like a “don’t sit on railings” notice?

Yes.
I’m sure a sign is all that would have been needed. He clearly obeys them.

Like a “Don’t Bang On Glass” sign at a rink?

 

[katsrfun]

BBM! UGH this whole thing right here is prime evidence of how reckless his actions were, even if the window was closed. Did it ever occur to him that there was a reason for the rail, the distance, so that you couldn't easily reach the glass?!?!? DUH! I mean COME ON! I'm so annoyed I could scream. The whole banging on the glass excuse...so ridiculous. This man had NO REGARD whatsoever for his granddaughter's safety, I'm sorry! I'm sure of course he regrets it and feels terrible, in the same way that other people who do stupid reckless things thinking they are immune to the laws the rest of us abide by, including the laws of physics!!!

MAN, I AM FIRED UP!

Hello. I'm wondering why he thought the baby would want to be up there anyway. I believe she was terrified; I mean that is what l50 stories up? Whatever, too high for me to want to lean over. Why would he think that the baby would like this view. I bet she was frightened and squirming, if not screaming, and this caused him to lose his grip. He probably didn't care if she was frightened or not, he wanted to put her up there so he could look and know where she was, supposedly. Very bad move by the gf, whatever his reasoning was. MOO. Thanks all. Katt

 

[justbreathe]

I've never understood the venom in this case. I absolutely believe this was not intentional. Do we just want the guy in jail because he followed the advice of his attorney to blame RCCL? Maybe he's a one in a million special kind of stupid? I'm terrified of heights myself. I'm especially terrified of my children around any heights. I'd never in a million years hold them up to a window on a ship like that. I practically need a xanax for them to walk on anything where they could even potentially hit the ground below or water below.

So many other people just walk around assuming all is safe and well. I can definitely see someone holding a child up to look out a window and it turning into a freak accident. I've always assumed they had some more evidence to be prosecuting him criminally. But it's not looking like that. I just don't get what seems to be so much dislike for this man though as if he really did it on purpose.

And he has some tickets? That means C's parent's were stupid to let him watch her on a cruise ship? If any of my parents or in laws have any tickets I would have no idea. How would I know unless I was there when it happened or they went out of their way to let me know they'd gotten a ticket for not wearing their seatbelt?

But I’m sure they saw him drive without his seatbelt. They don’t have to know he got a ticket? They just have to see him not buckle up every time he gets in a car.

 

[rabidstoat]

Is the claim still that she wanted to bang on the glass and that's why he held up and out? Because aside from the window being open, why couldn't she bang on the glass on the lower half of the window? You know, the part that is actually her height and doesn't open?

Incidentally, I am right now on a different Royal Caribbean ship. The top part of the windows on deck slide like in the pictures, though on this ship, there's no blue tint to the windows. It's still pretty easy for me at least to tell what's open and what's not, even from a distance.

 

[katydid23]

I've never understood the venom in this case. I absolutely believe this was not intentional. Do we just want the guy in jail because he followed the advice of his attorney to blame RCCL? Maybe he's a one in a million special kind of stupid? I'm terrified of heights myself. I'm especially terrified of my children around any heights. I'd never in a million years hold them up to a window on a ship like that. I practically need a xanax for them to walk on anything where they could even potentially hit the ground below or water below.

So many other people just walk around assuming all is safe and well. I can definitely see someone holding a child up to look out a window and it turning into a freak accident. I've always assumed they had some more evidence to be prosecuting him criminally. But it's not looking like that. I just don't get what seems to be so much dislike for this man though as if he really did it on purpose.

And he has some tickets? That means C's parent's were stupid to let him watch her on a cruise ship? If any of my parents or in laws have any tickets I would have no idea. How would I know unless I was there when it happened or they went out of their way to let me know they'd gotten a ticket for not wearing their seatbelt?

I am not sure it is venom. But I am disgusted with this man. I think it is much more than just 'holding up a child to look out a window. ' If one holds up a child to let them look out a window, they don't end up on the concrete 100 feet below, unless someone is incredibly negligent.

I don't see this as a freak accident. A freak accident doesn't involve criminal negligence on his part.

A freak accident is when he is holding his baby tightly, standing safely away from the window ledge, and a runaway rolling food court crashes into him from behind, hurling him forward and pushing his baby into the air. That is a freak, unavoidable accident.

My 'dislike' came from the description of him placing this little baby up upon the guard rail, mere feet away from an open window. I have been on a similar cruise line---you can easily tell if the windows are open or closed. Placing a very young vulnerable child in such a dangerous position is cruel and callous and abhorrently stupid. JMO

As for the long list of tickets---in my opinion it shows his stubborn and reckless nature. I got a ticket once for not wearing my seatbelt. I was 'wearing' it but I had both my arms outside of it because I was wearing a freshly pressed white linen shirt and about to get pictures taken at a family portrait place. lol

But did I repeat that poor decision and receive 4 more tickets for no seat belts? I don't know anyone who has that many infractions of the same law. WHY do that? Only a stubborn, obstinate person would continue to defy that safety law. IMO MOO

I found his refusal to take the breathalyser interesting as well. If he had ZERO drinks he probably would have taken one, to prove so, in my opinion.

I think he told the truth when he quickly uttered the words---" I dropped my Baby. "

If he had simply and accidentally dropped the baby, she wouldn't have landed outside on the pavement below. She would have fallen 5 feet to the floor, and probably suffered injuries she would have recovered from.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

This is correct. I hear people say the seatbelt thing is irrelevant. But SA really does seem like a guy who thinks safety is for wimps. Doesn’t want to wear a seat belt. Bangs on glass at kids’ hockey game. Seats and stands baby on hand railing. No one gonna tell him what to do!

wants to be the silver backed gorilla.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

That puts the defense in an awkward position as far as the parents are concerned, but I think that's one reason for where they're going. They will probably find numerous ways around it. A defense attorney's job is to be zealous in his representation. I'm not saying they're planning to outright lie but there seem to be a lot of ways they can say there was an impairment that was not then known. Or just stick to the insistence that in his mind he thought there was glass. They can't prove what was in his mind. It seems like he insists on this despite apparently having his hands outside of the window. I think the PR prosecutors know the case is backed up. But why is it getting this far without a plea?

Legal experts, how likely do you think it is that there will be a plea arrangement? I think it will happen soon.

Too many variables to call. Depends on:
PR.
Jury or judge trial.
Judge assigned.
Experience of prosecutors.
Early in the case.
Depends on quality of video.
How many stupid interviews Winkleman and SA give.
Take a plea bc I think you’ll hang otherwise.
All those comments leave him alone, he’s suffered enough, get blasted when not monitored.
This is a family oriented culture. Kids come first. Some dumb American leaves his granddaughter swinging in the breeze.

 

[they'll get you]

Is the claim still that she wanted to bang on the glass and that's why he held up and out? Because aside from the window being open, why couldn't she bang on the glass on the lower half of the window? You know, the part that is actually her height and doesn't open?

Incidentally, I am right now on a different Royal Caribbean ship. The top part of the windows on deck slide like in the pictures, though on this ship, there's no blue tint to the windows. It's still pretty easy for me at least to tell what's open and what's not, even from a distance.

Can you send some photos of the railing and window pane?
Is it a sister to the Freedom?